Gift of Finest Wheat
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    I will be using RitualSong until after Easter. It has the WORST possible collection of communion hymns and my congregation doesn't know most of them - there might be a plot afoot somewhere explaining that if you subscribe to conspiracy theories - LOL. GOFW is one of the better communion hymns, so I use it.
  • GOFW is one of the better communion hymns, so I use it.


    If one has lemons, one makes lemonade. Conversely, no amount of lemons will make apple juice.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    GOFW is one of the better communion hymns in RitualSong. Unfortunately, I can count on one hand the number in that hymnal that are actually decent and maybe have a finger left over.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    maybe have a finger left over.


    One in particular?
  • Yes, Kathy, that always bugged me, too.
    I've never thought of that song as much of gift...
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,985
    The thing that has puzzled me for years, is that we are supposedly centered and focused on the Eucharist. Why is our music for it so wretched? The aural and the visual don't line up.
  • Charles, I keenly remember sitting through parochial school masses as a sixth grader and wondering the same thing. My thoughts about those adults selecting the music at the time were three-fold,
    "Don't they really believe in this great mystery?"
    "If they don't sense the lameness, but they do believe in the real presence, maybe they just have bad taste?"
    "Do they really think this is what is kids like?"
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen CharlesW Jenny
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "If they don't sense the lameness, but they do believe in the real presence, maybe they just have bad taste?"


    This.

    I grew up believing very strongly in the True Presence and also having no problem with "Folk Mass." I have bad taste. I still have bad taste, but my sense of the effectiveness of liturgical style has changed. (Also my tastes have expanded to include more good things. But I still like a lot of bad music.)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    MACW... It's not bad taste, it's bad faith.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Are bona fide gifts of finest weed in bad taste?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    All... Here was my assessment from 2008 on GOFW taken from an earlier thread which was in our archives... thank you archives. The title of my post was...

    ...sifted. (lol)

    ...sifted.
    We sang WGOFW today at Mass. During the singing of the hymn, I was quietly asking God for some insight as to why this hymn could be an issue. As I sat reading the words, here is what occurred to me. I am not saying this is God's insight, I am just saying I ASKED. Again, the problem with a LOT of our music is in the music, yes, but MORESO in the theology. This is where the REAL danger lies.


    While this piece has no blatant heresy like many others, it has within it a cloaked (insidious) double meaning in much of its phraseology. This is played out in the two-fold aspect of the Liturgy as a SACRIFICE and a MEAL. This is tangentially presented to us in terms of Catholic Christian as opposed to Protestant Christian theology. Only in the Catholic church is the fullness of the faith and truth.


    First I will present the entire text and then the comments with supporting documentation.


    _______________________________


    music and lyrics: Robert E. Kreutz


    refrain

    You satisfy the hungry heart with gift of finest wheat,

    come give to us o saving Lord, the bread of life to eat.


    verse 1

    as when the shepherd calls his sheep, they know and heed his voice;

    so when You call Your family Lord, we follow and rejoice.


    (refrain)


    verse 2

    with joyful lips we sing to You, our praise and gratitude,

    that You should count us worthy Lord, to share this heavenly food.


    (refrain)


    verse 3

    the mystery of Your presence Lord, no mortal tongue can tell;

    whom all the world cannot contain comes in our hearts to dwell.


    (refrain)


    verse 4

    You give yourself to us o Lord, then selfless let us be,

    to serve each other in Your name in truth and charity.


    (refrain)



    ___________________________


    Comments:


    refrain

    You satisfy the hungry heart with gift of finest wheat,

    come give to us o saving Lord, the bread of life to eat.


    This is sung over and over meaning it is the part of the hymn that is 'drilled' into us. There are basic theological problems that assault (notice I did not say are in opposition to) the very truths of Catholic Doctrine in the Blessed Sacrament. Again, the double-meaning makes this a subtle assertion that leads one away from the solid foundation of Doctrine.


    When we are receiving the Body and Blood of Christ, it's NOT wheat or wine anymore. It actually is the flesh and blood of Jesus Christ at this point in time but has the 'appearance of bread and wine'. We do not eat bread and wine, we eat flesh and blood, each fully present in each of the species. In Protestant doctrine, it is ONLY wheat and wine (or juice), before and after. (1)


    _____________________


    verse 1

    as when the shepherd calls his sheep, they know and heed his voice;

    so when You call Your family Lord, we follow and rejoice.


    Again, Jesus says, It is not those who say, "Lord, Lord, did we not prophecy in your name?..." But those who did the will of my Father. Unless you eat of the FLESH and of the Son of Man and drink his BLOOD you will NOT have life within you. ALL Christians are not the ONE big happy family proported here. Jesus made it clear that we MUST eat his flesh and blood. That only happens in the Catholic Church.


    _____________________


    verse 2

    with joyful lips we sing to You, our praise and gratitude,

    that You should count us worthy Lord, to share this heavenly food.


    Basically, this verse connotes a double meaning that because we are singing God's praise and gratitude, He SHOULD find us worthy to eat the 'heavenly food'. It is not manna, such as that which was found in the Old Testament. It is again, FLESH and BLOOD.


    As for the importance of our singing, truth be told, if we sang NOTHING at all, it would make no difference to the saving act of the Sacrfice of the Mass.


    We have nothing to 'add' to the Mass to make ourselves worthy. Christ has done it all in offering his Body and Blood for us. All we can do is accept it as He 'represents' himself to the Father in the application of his sacrifice for our sin in an ongoing way. (2) This is where the whole notion of vocal 'participation' doesn't hold a drop of water. Our participation in the Mass adds nothing to its value or our redemption, and our lack of vocal 'participation' takes nothing away from its efficacy.


    _____________________


    verse 3

    the mystery of Your presence Lord, no mortal tongue can tell;

    whom all the world cannot contain comes in our hearts to dwell.


    Actually, we tell the mystery plain and clear. God dwells in the tabernacle and in the very species of bread and wine in His very FLESH and BLOOD. The mystery remains in the fact that ALL OF GOD IS contained right there! This verse practically goes in direct opposition to the very truth of Thomas Aquinas most famous hymn:


    PANGE, lingua, gloriosi

    Corporis mysterium,

    Sanguinisque pretiosi,

    quem in mundi pretium

    fructus ventris generosi

    Rex effudit Gentium.


    SING, my tongue, the Savior's glory,

    of His flesh the mystery sing;

    of the Blood, all price exceeding,

    shed by our immortal King,

    destined, for the world's redemption,

    from a noble womb to spring.


    But it's even more insidious still. It is ONLY the very TONGUE OF THE PRIEST that makes the mystery complete in SPEAKING the words of transubstantiation.


    ______


    verse 4

    You give yourself to us o Lord, then selfless let us be,

    to serve each other in Your name in truth and charity.


    This one is almost completely air tight. However, Christ ONLY gives Himself to us through the hands and actions of the priest THROUGH the Sacrfice of the Mass and through the sacraments which impart grace. This one is somewhat referring back to the preceding verses in a very vague and undefined way. In other words, if this hymn was sung by a Catholic in a Protestant church service, it would seem completely and unequivocally true in that setting!


    I would definitely prefer to SING, my tongue, the Savior's glory, and of His flesh the mystery sing in place of GOFW every time. Other than that, I don't see anything wrong with this hymn at all!
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    (Comment seven years later on my post from 2008 above.) I wouldn't express my thoughts today like I did seven years ago, but the basic theological reference still holds true, IMHO.
  • Has anyone else had their mind wander down a tangent about the quality of wheat flour in communion hosts while singing about "finest wheat"?

    On a second point, does there exist a Eucharistic hymn that has a balanced theological approach that addresses the real presence, sacrifice, worship, and the communal/meal aspects of the Eucharist, that would perhaps throw a bone to both liturgical/theological camps?

    Is it possible the bit from MS about music for mass not being "merely Eucharistic" has been taken wrongly? It seems to actually say that hymns for mass should be Eucharistic as a minimum and also simultaneously appropriate to the particular liturgical action/occasion. Whereas we now have a great deal of hymns that may be appropriate for "gathering" etc., as a generic act, but are not Eucharist, not particularly relevant for gathering for the Eucharist.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,198
    Some just hearing the title might think we are talking about canaries : Gift of Finest Tweet.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,115
    Or Finest Tweed.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    During the singing of the hymn, I was quietly asking God for some insight as to why this hymn could be an issue.


    Why?
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    Adam:

    In the last thread of 2008, (look it up) the OP was all about issues the church or DoM was having with the piece. At first I thought, hey... this is one of the better modern hymns, but I was open to the possibility that it wasn't, so hey!

    Here is original OP:

    At NLM there was a heated discussion (argument complete with excomunications, as is usual there) over the hymn "Gift of Finest Wheat". So, simple question: is it appropriate for Mass? I've often said that the bishops shouldn't decide this, but us musicians. So let's convene a council and settle this once and for all! Here's my case that it is:

    I suspect that a LOT of the reaction against it is due to guilt by association: this has been a favorite of parish music as it has been for the past 40 years (well, since it was written...) However, it wasn't written to be strummed by a guitar or crooned by a cantor; it was written to be sung SATB and played by a pipe organ. That kind of guilt by association is odd and winds up affecting not a few good contemporary pieces: I am the Bread of Life; Lift High the Cross, Respond & Acclaim, etc. I'll just post my last NLM comment:

    Nothing in the composition of GoFW is related to pop music. I took a cursory look at the harmonic progression - most of it follows classical rather than modern rules. Even though the harmonic rhythm is irregular, the accompaniment moves on the quarter beat. The strategic usage of suspensions is another thing used in classic literature rather than popular.

    You mentioned chant - this is written almost in the style of the 3rd or 4th mode, ending on the third and not the tonic. The melody is unrushed but subservient to the text. This is essentially chant.

    You say to consider the natural setting - I have never heard this hymn on a guitar. Even thinking of it brings to mind an organ. The verses demand to be sung in SATB harmony. If there's anything popish about this, I don't see it.

    As communion music, I'd say it trumps "Panis Angelicus", with the Lambilotte tune which makes use of romanticized chromaticism to get effect. Adoro Te? No way. But it's up there next to it, a modern heir to the devotional tradition.

    (and by the way, I already pointed out that the BEST music for communion is the proper antiphon. But many churches can't yet USE the proper antiphon. And there's nothing at all wrong with singing a hymn after Mass, in the OF or EF, so the topic is STILL relevant)
  • I think the only instrument I've heard GOFW played on is the electric piano, and I really don't like that or the accompaniment written for it. It's sort of funny, before reading this thread I never considered what it would sound like on the organ, but now I sort of want to try it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    So, to continue my diatribe, Panis Angelicus is just sacharine. I avoid it like I avoid Mozart. GOFW, better musically than Franck for liturgy, but the words have totally lost it. In the future at some point, I predict it will be banned from the Roman rite.

    And before you all jump all over me, please realize that this is just MHO.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,847
    musiclover88:

    It works very well on the organ. I believe it was the Eucharist Congress Hymn in Pittsburgh in the 80s or something. Yea, big hit with the 'trads' and then it found its way into the common rep, but 'who am I to judge'?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    "You Satisfy the Hungry Heart" was selected as the official hymn of the 41st International Eucharistic Congress, held in Philadelphia in 1976. Text by Omer Westendorf, 1916-1997 (founder of World Library of Sacred Music); music by Robert E. Kreutz, 1922-1996, a development engineer for the Gates Rubber Company in Denver, CO, for most of his adult life, but who composed music at night and on weekends and left a legacy of over 394 compositions.

    As the tune was composed in 1976, a few years after its composition it acquired the tune name BICENTENNIAL.

    Although this recording seems to imply that the choral arrangement used in the recording is by Richard Proulx, what is actually sung is Kreutz' own harmonization. I believe the organ introduction is by John Ferguson.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvPCjVWFXJw
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    Bob Kreutz was from LaCrosse, WI. A graduate of Aquinas High School in that city, he won a baseball scholarship to Loras College in Dubuque, but his education was interrupted by his Army service during WW II. His music teachers over the years included Leo Sowerby (Chicago), Arnold Schoenberg (UCLA), Normand Lockwood (Denver).

    I first met Bob in 1965, when I was a seminarian in Denver. A very humble and holy man.

    Gift of Finest Wheat was not a commissioned work. Rather, it was the winner of a composition contest sponsored by the Archdiocese of Philadelphia. Omer Westendorf and Bob Kreutz each received prize money of $500 for their joint hymn, and the Archdiocese of Philadelphia owned the copyright thereafter. (Be sure you read the fine print before you enter a composition contest!)

    I particularly like Bob's music for marimba. His concerto for marimba and orchestra is a wonderful and quite challenging composition. More info about Bob and his music is found in this online doctoral dissertation by Brett Jones:

    http://www.pas.org/docs/default-source/thesisdissertations/BJones.pdf?sfvrsn=2
  • When the original SATB/organ octavo of “Gift of Finest Wheat” was published, it had a two-measure organ introduction that I played many times. Years later, someone pointed out to me that this two-measure introduction includes the first six notes of the song “God Bless America” in the top note of the organ part! I never noticed that, since Kreutz’s underlying harmonies on the first two measures somewhat obscure the melody.

    Did Bob Kreutz do this on purpose, since the hymn (with the tune name BICENTENNIAL) was written in America’s bicentennial year? Who knows?! But even if he did – lest someone claim copyright infringement – there are some music historians who propose that the first six melody notes of Irving Berlin’s “God Bless America” are based on an old Jewish-themed novelty song, “When Mose with His Nose Leads the Band,” a song which, of course, we would consider politically incorrect nowadays.

    So, if anyone here has the original SATB/organ version of “Gift of Finest Wheat” in their files, take a look, and let us know what you think about the first two measures!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Dear Fathers, if memory serves, is it Mi So Fa Mi Re Mi ?
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,396
    I don't know about the introduction, but the first five notes of the tenor part and the next note of the bass part in the refrain read: Db, C, Bb, C, Bb, Ab (God bless America).
    You satisfy.pdf
    35K
  • I don't see the issue with resurrecting old threads. Do we REALLY want 150 threads entitled "WHY I THINK VOX DEI IS BAD!!!1!"? I'd rather have one thread for that discussion and let that be the place for it.


    On a side note - if one doesn't have anything new to say, why post about it at all? And if one has some major new insight that will blow the whole discussion wide open, that surely deserves a thread of it's own.
  • That gratuitous 4/4 measure annoys the crap out of me. Other than that, I don't mind it. I'd hear it 10 times before I listened to one phrase of "All are welcome".
  • Isn't it a rule to not start a new thread if we can find a similar one?

    Any rule posted, or suggestions about limiting postings to focus on the subject is invariably immediately trounced by infidels here. Think I'm being sarcastic? Read the next post that appears!

    (of course, this ay be due to the fact that we exist in a work environment where attempts to follow the rules [GIRM] get you fired)
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Father, you are off to an early lead in the MusicaSacra board's 2015's random-cool-trivia sweepstakes! ;)
    When the original SATB/organ octavo of “Gift of Finest Wheat” was published, it had a two-measure organ introduction that I played many times. Years later, someone pointed out to me that this two-measure introduction includes the first six notes of the song “God Bless America” in the top note of the organ part! I never noticed that, since Kreutz’s underlying harmonies on the first two measures somewhat obscure the melody.

    Did Bob Kreutz do this on purpose, since the hymn (with the tune name BICENTENNIAL) was written in America’s bicentennial year? Who knows?! But even if he did – lest someone claim copyright infringement – there are some music historians who propose that the first six melody notes of Irving Berlin’s “God Bless America” are based on an old Jewish-themed novelty song, “When Mose with His Nose Leads the Band,” a song which, of course, we would consider politically incorrect nowadays.

    So, if anyone here has the original SATB/organ version of “Gift of Finest Wheat” in their files, take a look, and let us know what you think about the first two measures!
    Thanked by 1Fr. Jim Chepponis
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    There aren't any actual rules about old threads in the Grand List of Forum Etiquette Guidelines (peace be upon them).

    However, it is usually a gaffe to add comments to old conversations (over a year old, say) *unless you are adding valuable new facts to them.* And, no, posting one more opinion is not a case of adding valuable new facts. Dredging up old conversations just to add one more personal opinion makes the writer look selfish. Typically this is a mistake committed by inexperienced users.