FWIW, the GRIM contradicts MS 66

In Advent the use of the organ and other musical instruments should be marked by a moderation suited to the character of this time of year, without expressing in anticipation the full joy of the Nativity of the Lord.

In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.

If one wants to implement sacred music in the best and truest sense in the OF, one is careful to be true to MS in every way. If I'm going to quote a document to try to get clerics to do the right thing (and sing everything), I'm going to follow it to the letter.

It will nevertheless be the Introit for Ember Saturday whence the Introit originally came (Advent IV was one of the Sundays without Mass formular in the earliest sacramentaries, because Ember Saturday Mass with its seven lessons, possibly numerous ordinations, starting after None would not have been over until early on Sunday).

Re Rorate masses on weekdays: There are some regions which have an indult for Rorate masses on weekdays of advent other than Saturday; e.g. Germany and Austria AFAIK.

I know a choir that will definitely sing OCOCE for the entrance hymn all 4 Sundays.

If you want to be really pedantic about OCOCE, then you should only be allowed to sing 1 verse of it on the 17th and that would be O come thou Wisdom.

In fact, if one is so keen on details like this, one shouldn't be singing hymns at all at Mass but Propers, thus making any discussion about what to sing when, a non starter.

My mother set our Advent wreath in the middle of the dining room table and before dinner each night we lit the wreath and sang "OCOCE." I did the same with my 2 sons. We sang it every day of Advent and never got tired of it! I still say those of you who get sick of it are probably providing music for multiple Masses each weekend. And OCOCE beats many of the alternative Advent hymns for the mere mortals who have no access to chant, so far.

I wonder why so much concern about this simple carol. This is mass, not Divine Office, so who cares and why should they? MS? It has about as much authority as a Walmart ad. Liturgically, heaven and earth have passed away since that was written and it has been superseded by GIRM and the authority given to the conferences of bishops. I suspect that may get worse, given the recent statements coming from Rome.

I did OCOCE this a.m. for its one-time appearance during Advent. The sky didn't fall, Our Lady of Fatima didn't torch the world, and mass suicides by trads hanging from the loft with mantillas wound tightly around their necks did not occur. No breviary burnings outside and no weeping and gnashing of teeth were heard by the faithful. All in all, it was a fairly normal and uneventful first Sunday of Advent.

You've got to be kidding, or doing wishful thinking. Authority has been given to the conferences of bishops and Pope Francis is even extending that authority to translations - not a good idea, I think, but he's doing it. Some folks pick out an older document that says what they like, and pretend it still has force behind it. MS doesn't. It is superseded by more current rules.

Orthodox don't believe in documents. Must be a Latin thing.

An interesting side note. I talked with an Orthodox priest a while back - OCA Orthodox, to be exact. He said a difference between Orthodox and Catholic practice is that Orthodox tradition lives within each member of the church. It isn't dependent on bishops and that a bishop who teaches contrary to that Orthodoxy will be removed. I like that approach. Far better, it seems, than vesting too much power in the hands of too few people.

Well, we are certainly in the land of make-believe if we actually grant that "Bishops' Conferences" have any sort of power, no matter WHO conjures up that idea. (And I remind you that the conjurer in this case has a number of other....ahhh...interesting scribblings.)

A Bishop--in his own Diocese--is the ruler, lawmaker, judge, and jury. No "conference" has the authority to 'rule' over a Bishop. But we digress....

I don't "pick a doc" that I like; in fact, the entire corpus of Roman Catholic 'sacred music' documents from ~300AD through MS all say (roughly) the same things. You know the drill: Chant is primary, organ is best, beauty, goodness, universality, polyphony....all that stuff.

Some may propose that ALL those documents and teachings are now overturned by a conference of bishops, or by some bunch of bureaucrats in Rome--but that is as impossible as a court ruling that homosexuals are "married."

So you Orthodox have less-filled libraries!! Economy counts, eh?

Just as a side note to previous posts. When I want to promote chant and good sacred music, I find appealing to documents is the least effective approach producing the poorest results. When I argue based on the atmosphere and mood it will create, the type of people it will attract, and the effects on offerings, I accomplish much more.

We sing this [OCOCE] at home as part of family prayers, we add the each verse over the days of the great O antiphons, the children love it... Oh we sing it in Latin . . .

Same here.

Ours is one of those parishes who began the Advent season with OCOCE for the entrance yesterday.

I don't know Settefrati... after reading some of the posts about how wrong it is to use OCOCE before 12/17, I'm inclined to stop singing Ave Maria except on the Annunciation. Just to be consistent.

:)

I don't know Settefrati... after reading some of the posts about how wrong it is to use OCOCE before 12/17, I'm inclined to stop singing Ave Maria except on the Annunciation. Just to be consistent.

You mean that on Advent IV (if you celebrate it), you wouldn't sing the Ave Maria at its appointed place in the Offertory?

Just sayin'     :)

Advent IV - Mass propers (Liber Usualis)

Introit: Rorate caeli
Gradual: Prope est Dominus
Alleluia verse: Veni Domine
Offertory: Ave Maria
Communion: Ecce virgo concipiet

Given that it is explicitly appointed to be used in the Propers for Advent IV, I find it unusual, or at least interesting, that one might disagree with the use of the Ave Maria text outside of the Annunciation. The only part of the text that occurs at the Annunciation is the very first part: Ave Maria, gratia plena, Dominus tecum.

That is essentially correct. The 1961 LU omits "Jesus".

I believe the people who post here do try to use good stuff. Even if still in effect, I wouldn't put too much faith in documents, Rome, or the Vatican. Those are fickle friends who will betray you when convenient. I think they have betrayed all of us in recent times.

Polite and loving? LOL. One of my favorites on that topic is W.C. Fields who said, "I am free of all prejudice. I hate everyone equally." I think Fields actually meant it.

However much OCOCE is the right amount, when your college plays a recording of bells playing the tune every hour on the hour for the entirety of Advent, it's definitely enough to drive one to insanity. Especially with Finals around the corner. Thanks be to God I am now off campus.

It's even worse than when the school sings the Salve Regina slower than a snail riding on a spate of molasses across a glacier in January.

W C Fields is my hero.