Don't put words in my mouth. The Gloria is proper to Mass. It belongs there. It isn't Proper to the day, but that's not what I said.

Aha! In your world there is no Ordinary of the Mass! My apologies for relying on experience rather than understanding .

KoS, nothing to forgive! It was just the fact that I was illiterate and didn't pick up on the literary connection!! Thanks for explaining!

Chris -

Ordinarily, your language is quite lucid.
I must say, though, of your above comment, that it is extra-ordinarily turgid.

A brilliant and excellent idea, Ken!
Then we would have real cantors!

Cantors from Rome were regularly sent, before and after Charlemagne, north to teach chant to the hinterlands.
What an irony that we might now need to import them from the east because the art is lost in the west.

(Of course, we do have plenty of people who could fulfill the true art of the cantor, but they would never pass the pirouette and arm flailing tests - nor would they want to.)

I think it is harsh, M. Jackson Osborn, to say cantors do not want to learn to chant. I have never seen a class offered locally on chant. I have learned a bit about it from a Youtube video when I was asked to sing (in English) one of The Lamentations of Jeremiah for a Tennebrae service at my church. I had a photocopy of a photocopy... of Gregorian chant and was told to "see what I could do with it."

When I filled in as a music teacher at a Catholic elementary school I found a set of old children's music textbooks that had sequential instruction on how to sing Gregorian chant. How sad that this isn't taught any longer, but who would teach it to the teachers?

If the Church wishes to have chanting, then the Church needs to TEACH chanting. Conferences once a year are not going to make it happen and a superior attitude toward those who are doing their best isn't going to win many advocates either!

By the way I have seen the cantor at St. Patrick's Cathedral "flailing her arms" at Midnight Mass on TV. No pirouette yet, though.

MS 21. ... there must be at least one or more cantors, thoroughly trained to intone at least the simpler chants that the congregation sings and to lead and sustain the singing. ...

My emphases.

MS 24. In addition to musical training, choir members should receive instruction on the liturgy and on spirituality.

Cantors from Rome were regularly sent, before and after Charlemagne, north to teach chant to the hinterlands.

Were not some of these Cantors rather harshly dealt with upon their return?

On their return?
I don't know, Noel.
Can you offer an example?

Cantors were in the train of Augustine when he was sent to England. The oldest surviving Book of Gospels [corrected] that we have happens to be a late sixth or early seventh century one that was written (copied) in Rome and was sent with Augustine on his mission to those whom Gregory the Great said were non Angli sed angeli. It is now in the Library of Corpus Christi College, Cambridge, and is used to this day at the enthronement of the CofE Archbishops of Canterbury.

For every cantor like yourself who wants to learn, there are, it seems, countless more who think of cantoring as being ignorant of chant, warbling through the likes of Alstott and worse, and showing off their pirouette and arm flailing skills.

MJO, did you not realize after clarifying your remarks to Carol, and then complimenting her initiative, that you then continued castigation of folks whom you admitted are left untrained and unattended by the institutional church?
Have you ever watched a USCCB conference at length? You'll nary find one plenum discussion of this or ANY OTHER liturgical concern of serious merit. Abp. Vigneron tried once years ago, to a commotion of yawning. Once.

As an observation, I think this is - in part - a cultural change that is taking place slowly in parish church settings, but which ultimately needs to percolate further up the food chain to reach the point of appropriate standardized training. Most of us are likely familiar with the great deal of animosity (on both sides) between Latin Mass adherents and Vernacular Mass adherents when certain parishes began doing both Masses. This animosity has slowly been reducing in the parish setting (although there are still determined pockets here and there). But there is still a mentality among many in the both the hierarchy and liturgy / musician associations who have strong prejudice against the Latin Mass.

Although this is not REALLY Latin Mass vs. Vernacular issue per se, there is a strong association of chant with the Latin Mass, and therefore reluctance to embrace appropriate training at many levels. Of course there are exceptions... but I don't think this is a lost cause, just a long-term cultural adaptation that has at least started. The Church is a ship, and ships take a LONG time to turn.

From my perspective, I've seen a relative explosion of chant resources and chant-based training / seminars / workshops in the last 15 years. There are many exciting developments that I see taking place around the country, and the growth is happening. it may not be everything we want at times, but it is happening.

As mentioned before, I don't think our job is so much to decide whether or not the battle is going well, merely to fight the fight with the tools at our disposal. If we don't feel that proper training is being offered... what are WE doing to rectify that? What are WE doing to provide a solution? (Rhetorical questions, both.)

Let's not bemoan circumstances as they are - let's accept it and do what our poor gifts enable us to do to move the standard ever forward.

I'm off my soapbox now! :)

Hmmm... I think if you re-read my post you'll see that I applied equal blame to both sides. The larger point wasn't so much EF vs. OF as much as it was how there is an inhibition on the musical training for forms of music (particularly chant) associated more closely with the EF. I'm sorry if your experience with EF people has been bad.

About that animosity.
There is, from what I have read and observed, a widespread (though not universal) animus held by many bishops, priests, and lay against the Latin mass. Vairied possible reasons (if 'reason', the rational faculty, is at all at work here) may be because they, rather myopically, see it as a threat to their (mis-)understanding of Vatican II; or that they (falsely) perceive it to be a negation of the validity of their English mass culture. In addition to these threatened folk are those who simply have an irrational contempt for Latin and anything preserved from our heritage, especially music. The supreme irony of these people, of course, is that, while thinking of themselves as 'Vatican Two' people, they are actually anti-Vatican Two in that they refute the very things that the council called for.

As for the Latin mass folk. I have heard of them characterised as liturgically snotty, iinsular, contemptuous of the English mass, holier than thou, more valid than thou, and so forth - plus the descriptions of Charles up above here. These things are likely true of some, (though it must be said that anti-Latin folk can be just as snotty about their own preferences - no one gets a 'free ride' on that score!). Much of such attitudes are, of course, basically uncharitable, and are a disgrace to their own Latin cultus. On the other hand, much of these attitudes may rise from the meanness which they experience from the irrational contempt of the anti-Latin camp. There may be a bit of the Victim Syndrome at work in their attitudes.

The really sad and basically un-Christ-like thing about the mutual uncharitableness of both groups is that each fails to see the basic humanity of the other and fails to recognise that they are brothers and sisters in the one true Faith. This is truly sad and must grieve our Lord and our heavenly Father.

This is what I make of what I have heard and read about. I have not, personally, encountered these phenomena. I have, though, encountered incredibly nasty folk who will shamelessly cause any amount of mayhem necessary to be rid of even a token bit of Latin, or even a chanted English mass. There is no meanness like unto their meanness. There is no irrationality like unto theirs to be found even within the walls of an asylum.
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Latin at Walsingham is reserved for anthems, EXCEPT! at our 8.00am mass on Sunday mornings - here a Gregorian ordinary (including creed) is sung by the congregation, who sing (led by vested cantors standing 'in choir' without amplification!) their Latin ordinary quite heartily and are quite fond of it. The propers at this mass vary from Latin to English.

The meanness and hostility are bad, no matter where they come from. It is out of place and unnecessary.

I am the cantor (as in organ + cantor) for the Saturday evening Vigil OF Mass at our parish once or twice per month.
Though I've been chanting the Gregorian communio after the Lalemant proper for a while, when I began adding the Gregorian offertory after the vernacular offertory of either Dr. Naples or the Lalemant propers, nobody complained (to me, but I assume not to anyone else, either, because I've been adding the Gregorian for we'll over a year).

Our rector does want these Masses sung into a microphone, by the way. We are in the choir loft, though, and it takes an awfully special hymn to get Vigil-goers to sing.

(To be honest, if I don't particularly like a hymn text/melody when I happen to be "in the pews," I forego singing that one...)

Maybe we should put a poll out for the offering basket,
"How do you feel about singing at Mass?"
1) I enjoy it and sing as much as I can
2) I think it is important, and so I sing what I can
3) I sing along with the parts of the Mass that I know from heart, but am not likely to sing along when a new setting is used
4) I like to sing along to hymns
5) I only sing hymns that are widely known. If the tune doesn't sound familiar, I am not going to burden myself at Mass with trying to figure out a new song. (see #3)
6) I am indifferent to music at Mass.
7) I do not sing at Mass"

Perhaps, then, we will know...

Continuing ...

8) I do my best to sing along with the cantor & guitarist or the praise group and band.
9) I don't care for the the OCP music we have but sing what I can.
10) I can't stand the sacro-pop music at every mass and only begrudgingly sing on a few of the songs.
11) I refuse to sing along with bad music.
12) I'd give my right arm to have Gregorian chant and/or polyphony, and even good hymns to sing along with.

MJO, you keep edging around the thing; why don't you just type it: those who do not sing are simply not Catholic enough to merit heaven. Stop shilly-shallying!

For those who have been gifted by God with the talent for singing this makes perfect sense. I know you will shoot me down for this argument but I will make it anyway, what if everyone was directed to sketch during Mass? I would be soooo distracted by my lack of artistic talent and how poorly I was representing what was happening before me that I would not be able to worship at all. We who love music and have grown up lifting our voice to the Lord can't relate very well to those who think they cannot or even should not. For a painter, I wonder if drawing the chalice being raised by the celebrant would be as wondrous to him as being part of a real choir that is singing a beautiful and reverent alleluia.

One priest I knew was completely unable to sing in any sort of tune. If absolutely neccessary he would attempt the dialogues, but the result was an unpleasant distraction, and difficult for the congregation to pitch the response. My recollection is that he could not hold recto tono. He did however have many fine pastoral and administrative skills, which he deployed AMDG.