All Souls (The "Agnus Dei" in the OF, on a Sunday)
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    Many questions, looking forward to November, but I'll try to confine it to one in this thread: Is the Requiem variant of Agnus Dei (i.e."...dona eis requiem." ["...sempiterna."]) licit/appropriate in the OF, especially for "All Souls," but also generally for any funeral?

    Otherwise, any other suggestions?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Nope, not in the OF.
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • rob
    Posts: 148
    Thanks, sir.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Yep, I'd do it. Especially in the OF.

    Why should the assembly (hate that term) not pray this. No one's going to hell over this, except possibly people who fought to tear down all that was Catholic about the Catholic Mass to make it acceptable Protestant worship form.

  • rob
    Posts: 148
    So, with a "nope" and a "yep", how am I to decide?

    Personally, I'm leaning towards "yep", because in the OF I can't find anything that says "nope", apart from the direction against troping of the Agnus Dei.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Ben may have written proof that this is not permitted. If so, he'll find it and we will all get educated.

    I have sincere belief that the NO Mass was created as the lowest form to which the Mass could be offered and still be valid. It, like the "Sainted Vernacular" were to be used in the mission fields to attract the unwashed and those from a culture far-removed from Western Life. It was high-jacked and made standard until the last 10 years and now looks shabby and worn, like a 1980's strip mall.

    The edges are showing, the boredom and ennui has set it. And the pews continue to empty.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/1000/x&page=1

  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,694
    http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/1043/can-agnus-dei-from-requiem-in-ef-be-used-in-of/p1

    This one includes Noel saying not to do it if the congregation is singing the Agnus Dei.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago Andrew Motyka Adam Wood
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    Yes, exactly...in practical terms, it is essential that the people have in their hands something that makes it clear exactly what they are to sing - since the Novus Really-Ordinary has decimated the special use of an altered text during the singing of the requiem. Otherwise there is a clash between loft and congregation, or Assembly if you prefer. Thanks for finding that!

    I especially like the careful way that Chonak has put this:
    Norm #16 in Ordo Cantus Missae, on the Agnus Dei, seems to exclude the older form: "The last time, the invocation is concluded with the words dona nobis pacem."
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    It's a moot point because of the ritual habit. The congregation's going to sing grant us peace or dona nobis pacem out of sheer force of habit, no matter what you stick in its hands.
    Thanked by 2chonak Adam Wood
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,157
    I suppose it might be a tolerable thing to do if a choir were singing a classic Requiem Mass; but I can't see doing it with a chant Mass or if the congregation were singing.
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 966
    Personally, I'm leaning towards "yep", because in the OF I can't find anything that says "nope", apart from the direction against troping of the Agnus Dei.

    Please be careful with this line of thought. Liturgical law generally is prescriptive and not proscriptive, i.e. it tells you what to do, and not what you shouldn't do. If the Missal or GIRM is silent about a certain practise, it means that, as a rule, it's best to refrain from it.

    Similar reasoning could justify fish kites, liturgical dancing or puppets at Mass...
    Thanked by 2RevAMG Andrew Motyka
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    If the Missal or GIRM is silent about a certain practise, it means that, as a rule, it's best to refrain from it.


    Or like arm-waving cantors, no one ever imagined that such a thing was conceivable.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Personally, I'm leaning towards "yep", because in the OF I can't find anything that says "nope", apart from the direction against troping of the Agnus Dei.

    Please be careful with this line of thought. Liturgical law generally is prescriptive and not proscriptive, i.e. it tells you what to do, and not what you shouldn't do. If the Missal or GIRM is silent about a certain practice, it means that, as a rule, it's best to refrain from it.

    Similar reasoning could justify fish kites, liturgical dancing or puppets at Mass..


    Actually, that's not even true, the missal is quite clear. It gives us a text to use (with no extra option for requiem Masses), then the GIRM says "no other person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove, or change anything in the liturgy on his own authority."

    That sounds pretty clear to me. If there is a text in the missal, it must be used as written, unless there is something specific giving another option. Very clear.

    When it comes to gestures and such, it's not as clear, because the GIRM and Missal don't specific exact gestures for every moment, but as for texts, it's not that way. The texts in the missal must be used as written, with nothing added, removed or changed, without explicit permission.

    We have to "say the black and do the red (which tells us to say the black)."
    Thanked by 3MarkThompson ronkrisman RevAMG
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