' ...and said, 'is she not the Mother of God?'

Well, yes... but...
She is the Mother of the Incarnate God-Man, Jesus. She is not 'from everlasting'. She is not the mother of the Triune God, not of the eternal Father, not of the Holy Ghost, nor of the Trinity, but of God-the-Son, the Incarnate God-Man Jesus (and not of the Son in his capacity of Only-Begotten-of-the-Father before all worlds). She was sinless by a special act of God's grace, not of her own nature. The glory that is hers and her very immaculate conception are gifts of God to a non-divine creature, not hers by virtue of her nature, or inherent grace. The mass is an act of intercommunion, an inter-action between the Triune Majesty and the Church, this only. Its graces are the gifts of God and no other.

While I am confident that my Mariology is quite Catholic, Orthodox, and sound, and while I do accord to the Blessed and Glorious Ever-Vigin Mary the hyper-dulia and veneration which is her due (that, and no more), I fully expect to be castigated by those who (very wrongly) regard her as co-redemptrix, mediatrix of all graces, and other attributes which do not, in fact, belong to her.

(And, if some competent person should charge that I may have erred theologically, I will gladly recant and adjust. [And, if I have erred, it is not so greatly as some ethnic groups who commonly and openly worship her as a goddess without so much as a peep out of their priests and bishops].)

Those propers, such as the offertory Ave Maria, are properly understood as quotations of scripture and proclamations of attributes. The propers are cantillations of scriptural texts, no more. They are not supplicatory. There are no prayers in the ritual text of the mass that are addressed to our Lady, or any other saint. They may be 'remembered' in collects of their feast days, or in the Roman canon, but they are not prayed to, nor are their prayers invoked.

Yes, there is nothing that prohibits saying the rosary during mass. Neither is there anything that prohibits reading Agatha Christie (as I have known some to do). Actually, I don't mean to be catty, but the rosary is a private devotion which is out of place at liturgia. (And yet, perhaps there is something that prohibits saying the rosary during mass, i.e., the very prohibition of addressing any other than the God-head at mass.)

As a matter of preface, I play the organ for a living at a big Catholic parish, but I work for a music directer and am therefore innocent of all musical wrongdoing.

Anyhow, last Sunday I was afforded the opportunity to drift into a choirloft frequented by known associates of mine singing at their regular extraordinary form high mass.

The director was absent, and the volunteers were making do on-the-fly: organ processional, gregorian propers, a Hassler polyphonic mass, Tallis' If Ye Love Me, Lambillotte Panis Angelicus, organ recessional. All of which were performed very well by the eight or nine singers and organist. All volunteers, too, even the organist.

Well here's my thought. So much of what I read here is the constant insistence that congregations be singing ordinaries during mass.

Why?

Theologically, the most important aspect of attending mass is the interior disposition of the soul towards the sacrifice on the altar. That doesn't change from EF to OF. Musically, an increased focus on congregational singing, in my mind, diminishes a) choral harmony with or without organ, b) the chanting of any more than two or three of the eighteen Gregorian ordinaries, six credos, etc., and c) singing polyphonic masses.

Who in their right mind would prefer to sing the Pro Defunctis Sanctus with organ and congregation as if it were a chorale, instead of kneeling, listening to Palestrina's Missa Brevis Sanctus and meditating on the canon/Eucharistic prayer as it begins on the altar? Or even the Sanctus from Mass XVII sung gently, clearly, by a group of men or women?

Without Christ in-the-flesh, as it were, Protestants had other things they could focus on in their liturgy to keep people interested. But at the Catholic mass, everything surrounds the sacrifice, everything leads to "Christ happening" on the altar, or at least should.

So, I think -- in that perfect world -- congregational singing should be diminished to the degree that a schola can chant and a choir can sing.

And in instances when the congregation will be singing, such as processional and recessional hymns, frankly, some dude in the sanctuary, amplified on a microphone, essentially treating the congregation like idiots with his hand gestures, is not supportive of a Christ-centered liturgy. A good organist can lead a congregation and choir with ease, just look at Protestant music programs.

In OF parishes we're so culturally locked into "participation" we have in many instances re-created the oft-cited liturgical boredom of the 1950s. Only the music is awful now. And we're famous for it.

MJO,

In the Byzantine liturgy, which of course is celebrated by Catholics as well as Orthodox, during the anaphora itself the congregation sings: It is truly right to bless you, Theotokos, ever blessed, most pure, and mother of our God. More honorable than the Cherubim, and beyond compare more glorious than the Seraphim, without corruption you gave birth to God the Word. We magnify you, the true Theotokos. Not a supplication, of course, but it seems to me it still goes beyond what you would consider proper, n'est ce pas?

However, I find it equally hard to believe that the intention of the council was that nothing should really change from the "old mass" to the "new mass," and that the congregation need not really sing or ever participate outwardly.

I think there's a lot of people that have a black and white view of this: it's either they sing everything, or they sing nothing. Period. I have a very difficult time with that philosophy.

I think there's a lot of people that have a black and white view of this: it's either they sing everything, or they sing nothing. Period. I have a very difficult time with that philosophy.

Yes.

Sorry, meant to add this.

Addressing prayers to anyone, even the BVM, during the mass is not allowed

A few years ago, I read from CNA, or CNS, or Zenit ,or something, that the Irish bishops had flatly forbade the apparently common practice, of using a Hail Mary to wind up the Prayer of the Faithful, to continue.
I'd never encountered it at the time, but since then, I know that plenty of FBI pastors here do that.
Marian devotion can get out of hand.
At a Mass where there were to be a number of strongly ethnic parishes gathering, I was given a Polish song to include, and the pastor asked me to find, either to sing, or at least to include in the program, translations.
When I did, we both agreed that the verse that essentially advocated getting Mary to make an end run around God when He was being mean and scary should be dispensed with.
(Save the Liturgy, Save the World)

de montfort does not espouse your thinking of mary pulling souls in through the back gate. in fact, quite the opposite. even those who manifest outward devotion aren't necessarily devoted at all and can be fooling themselves.

but some of my "Marian" friends do go to such extremes

They could be the ones fooling themselves... and you. By your comment, I guess you aren't a 'Marian' friend, eh?

De Montfort's approach is quite scriptural, even if that leads him to make statements that sound daring.

He deserves to be a Doctor of the Church.

I think De Monfort's daring statements may be what has kept him from that honor. It isn't what he says but how he says it that could be open to misinterpretation. Then again, who really knows why one becomes a Doctor of the Church, and another doesn't receive that designation.

Wow!! Theology 101....again. Don't we need to get past tossing documents at each other? After all, most of us would love lots of singing if it were accompanied by the reverence and awe due to Christ. I actually don't care whether a large choir or small choir sings. I don't care what name we call it. I do care that what we sing and how we sing embody the truth of what we believe.

Sometimes we miss the forest for the trees. Parishes are not identical. The people in the pews by and large do not have the formation or education and experience that we do. The devotion of some communities to the Blessed Virgin can be seen as a fetish to those of us who are unfamiliar with it. But if that devotion helps them to pray more often and more sincerely, who are we to criticize it? The important thing is that the worshipping community approach the altar with a disposition which is appropriate for the reception of the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ himself. Our music, our proclaiming, our welcoming must reflect the reality that He is with us. If we try to do this and spend less time judging people's orthodoxy, we will accomplish wonders.

I think it is counterproductive to have the congregation singing, badly, a hymn with words of questionable origin instead of listening to the word of God set by the masters of sacred music. I will say it again, there is that one mass where people who like to sing attend. Then there is the other 4 or 5 where people are not interested in singing. The choral mass should have professional musicians and beautiful and noble music. The others should be left silent, or with an able organist playing adequate repertoire during offertory and communion. After 5 decades of having cantors singing at the people (or in 99% of the cases, instead of the people) and with the rise of choral music and interest in Gregorian Chant in churches, we should be suggesting to our priests to allocate more money to choral activities in the church and do away with cantors.

OK, here's a look at the OF propers. I have omitted those that do not appear to address our Lady.

Where no Scripture reference is listed, the text source is not indicated in the 1974 Gradual.

The Introits include:
"Salve, sancta parens..." (Sedulius)
"Vultum tuum deprecabuntur..." (Ps. 44: 13ff.)


Graduals:
"Audi, filia, et vide..." (Ps. 44:11ff)
"Benedicta et venerabilis es, Virgo Maria..."
"Concupivit rex de corem tuum..." (Ps 44:12)
"DIffusa est gratia in labiis tuis..." (Ps 44:3)
"Propter veritatem.... [V.] Audi, filia, et vide..." (Ps. 44: 5, 11ff)
"Specie tua et pulchritudine tua..." (Ps. 44:3)

Alleluias:
"Ave Maria, gratia plena..." (Lk 1:28)
"Diffusa est gratia..." (Ps. 44:3)
"Felix es, sacra Virgo Maria..."
"Post partum, Virgo, inviolata permansisti..."
"Propter veritatem...." (Ps. 44:5)
"Specie tua..." (Ps. 44:5)

Tract:
"Audi, filia, et vide..." (Ps. 44:11ff)
"Gaude, Maria Virgo..."

Offertory:
"Ave Maria, gratia plena..." (Lk. 1:28)
"Beata es, Virgo Maria..."
"Diffusa est gratia..." (Ps. 44:3)
"Felix namque es, sacra Virgo Maria..."
"Recordare, Virgo Mater, ..." (Jer. 18:20)

Communio:
"Diffusa est gratia..." (Ps. 44:3)
"Gloriosa dicta sunt de te, Maria..." (Ps. 86:3)


So there is a lot of quotation from Psalm 44, with application to Our Lady; there are several antiphons with non-scriptural texts that directly address our Lady, even by name.

The hymns and four votive antiphons to our Lady mentioned above are extra-liturgical and are not integral to the body of chant proper to or attendant upon the ritual text of the mass; nor are they appropriately sung at mass. They are sung, as they have been historically, not within, but following mass and office (particularly vespers), and in private or extra-liturgical devotions and processions.

I repeat:

Those propers, such as the offertory Ave Maria, are properly understood as quotations of scripture and proclamations of attributes. The propers are cantillations of scriptural texts, no more. They are not supplicatory. There are no prayers in the ritual text of the mass that are addressed to our Lady, or any other saint. They may be 'remembered' in collects of their feast days, or in the Roman canon, but they are not prayed to, nor are their prayers invoked.

Not quite true.
Some of the propers for the Common of the BVM (OF and EF) say quite directly, "intercede for us".

"Intercedite pro nobis". It's crystal clear.

If there were some sort of rule against this, these proper prayers of the Mass wouldn't be used, in the EF and the OF.

Wow! You folks stay up late when you want to make a point.

If we give our colleagues a fair hearing, and if they are willing to hear us, there shouldn't be too much annoyance. While any two people can disagree, if we're working toward the same goal (which should be spelled out by the pastor) we should be able to find common ground.

Me too, but we have to keep trying, Charles.

I'm glad you mentioned that. I have had to laugh at myself from time to time as well. Good point.

if we're working toward the same goal

The goal is to have the congregation sing. It's been 50 years and it has not happened. Something new needs to be done at this point.

Sometimes we overlook the power of silence

No, I agree with you here. I prefer silence over a loud arm waving cantor and a defiantly silent congregation. We need to go back to silent masses and focus resources on choral masses, which are attended with people more sympathetic to singing.

Some congregations are just not accustomed to singing. When I came to my current post 20 years ago, the PIP's never sang. Now they sing very well. Sometimes if we persist in producing good music, the congregation responds positively.

gregp

I think that churches that have 'electronically amplified sound' refers to the sacropop style. You are correct. NO ONE sings that stuff in the congregation. However, if you play traditional four part homophonic hymns on the organ, we tend to get great singing results from the pips. I think that is what the others are referring to.

I hear the most singing during responses, Our Father, and top 40 old school hymns. Every place I've been. Agreed about sacro-pop. It doesn't get sung by and large.

Coincidentally the hymns the congregation belts are often the ones we musicians find tiring. At my current post as DoM, we've been singing Credo III every Sunday for five and a half years. Not my call. I've had to really push myself beyond my own personal boredom and simply pray, appreciating that most of the pips are more and more comfortable and owning more of their parts of the sacred liturgy. The choir is also bored with it, and it's helped remind us that we are servants of the sacred liturgy.