Role of the Cantor
  • MaryAnn Carr WilsonMaryAnn Carr Wilson
    Posts: 1,738
    So true! It feels so odd not to sing the Credo now.
    Prob the main reason it doesn't get sung is that it takes around 4 minutes. For an extra 2 minutes, it's so worth it.

    That's what bugs me about the average parish- the desire to go the most convenient route. That mindset plagues the OF, with its myriad of options and most choosing the easiest, shortest way to do something. But it's been a problem forever, as it's a human problem. Consider Rossini propers only, low mass only, etc. The easy way, that's what it often boils down to.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I would love to sing the credo, but its like pulling teeth to get some priests in my diocese to stand still that long. If I had my druthers, I would sing the entire mass. Unfortunately, far too many priests say mass with one eye on their watches.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    I'm experiencing some people who don't like it when we sing only two or three hymns at mass. They claim that they WANT to sing and want to be given more to sing.


    I'm totally against this. Letting a few people who want to sing call the shots forces people to put up with singing or standing not singing when you are smart enough to know that they should not have to sing.

    Tell them to 1. Join the choir 2. Become cantors 3. Put their request in the suggestion box that you use at staff meetings to lighten the mood and all have a laugh.

    The day that Catholics decided that they, with no education in liturgy or musi , should make requests for what they want....having no background or justification....was a bad day.

    Every church should have a clearly defined goal, decided upon by you and the pastor, for the music and everything suggested or requested by the people should be greeted with no.

    No. What a wonderful word.

    When they ask why it's a simple answer, No.






    Thanked by 1G
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,192
    I'm experiencing some people who don't like it when we sing only two or three hymns at mass. They claim that they WANT to sing and want to be given more to sing.

    Are they closet-Episcopaleans or Anglican converts ... or what? At least they like to sing.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    kenstb, I last heard the Creed sung in 1968. It was sung in English to "Sheep May Safely Graze." I haven't heard anyone sing it to any melody since and am currently told not to sing it at all.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    3. Put their request in the suggestion box that you use at staff meetings to lighten the mood and all have a laugh.


    Ain't nothing like having a guffaw at the expense of the uneducated plebes, is there? Har har, what a bunch of rubes! What kind of an idiot wants to sing more, or would have the gall to mention it to the music director, of all people? Know your place, peasant.

    No. What a wonderful word.

    When they ask why it's a simple answer, No.


    And somewhere on a priests' email list, they are saying the same thing about how to answer pesky music directors.
    Thanked by 4chonak Liam kenstb Andrew Motyka
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Someone forgot to use purple....or possibly we both did.

    But this is not purple:
    The day that Catholics decided that they, with no education in liturgy or musi , should make requests for what they want....having no background or justification....was a bad day.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    For the sake of making the site accessible to color-blind readers, would snarkers please dispense with the purple stuff and label their snark with text tags such as
    [snark]This text is ironic.[/snark]

    Thank you.
    Thanked by 1Wendi
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Any choirmaster who has people eager to sing more ought be so overjoyed that he hopped and skipped all the way home. What a delightful, sane, environment! I hope that you sang a Te Deum in thanksgiving for having such enlightened and joyous souls in your midst. What felicity!
    Thanked by 2Gavin Andrew Motyka
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Many parishes do not sing the Our Father. I am most insistant on singing this. Thankfully, there is a plainchant version of the Our Father published over 50 years ago which just about every Catholic in AUSTRALIA knows. It was published by AELC and should have been adopted by ICEL.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    Any choirmaster who has people eager to sing more ought be so overjoyed that he hopped and skipped all the way home. What a delightful, sane, environment! I hope that you sang a Te Deum in thanksgiving for having such enlightened and joyous souls in your midst. What felicity!


    Yes. You are mostly correct. I have long appreciated the almost protestant hymn singing culture of my parish - it sure isn't usually a battle to get people to sing.

    In this particular instance my joy is slightly more cautious; this is due to the fact that I believe that the individuals making this request are not actually articulating what they mean to say. Their comment/request is "We'd like to sing more at mass." What I'm pretty sure they mean to say is "We aren't singing the old songs that we used to sing years ago," which translates into "Blest Are They," "Be Not Afraid," "One Bread, One Body," etc.

    Still, as I mentioned, taking their request at face value, we are accommodating them by increasing the number of hymns at mass.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • HeitorCaballero
    Posts: 92
    We shouldn't have cantors. If a congregation want to sing they will. If they wish not to sing they won't. At a given Sunday we notice the mass where most people sing, and the one where people sing the least. Having a silent mass is not reprehensible, in fact, a lot of people prefer quiet meditation than to have a cantor.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago francis
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    We shouldn't have cantors.


    Who sings the verses to the psalm? Who sings the verse to the gospel acclamation?
    Thanked by 3Jani CHGiffen Ben
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    No one. Cool! Mass without singing gives more appreciation to Mass with singing.

    There is no place in the GIRM that says anything must be sung aside from some real confusion about the Gospel Alleluia...which may be omitted. Would David be dancing with joy at the way psalms have been paraphrased, poorly sung and generally butchered?

    Hector Rules!
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The psalm and gospel acclamation should be sung before any hymns are being sung.

    So, you are proposing to sing almost nothing? So there should be no organists or anything of the like and nothing need be sung, all so that we can get rid of the vile cantors?
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    No, so all the masses on a weekend are not equally compromised by the lack of competent musicians. The goal once was silence, music played or sing at low mass, the Mass sung at the High Mass. That makes sense.

    When all the people are not singing the Ordinary of the Mass, there should be no attempt to have them sing anything else.
    Thanked by 1Jahaza
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    I think that in my parish, the PIP's have been warned to never suggest to me that they would like to sing more. If that happened, I might not get up from the organ bench. My singers are unhappy whenever we have tri-lingual masses and we must share the singing with other choirs. They just love to sing. In fact, it took me three years to get the former pastor to allow us to sing the Pater Noster at mass, and now the congregation knows it by memory. Sadly, there has been some backsliding with the current pastor, but exposure to the sung mass seems to make people more comfortable with it whether it is English or Latin. Here is where patience comes in. I think I'll wait until my pastor's eyes stop rolling over white when I enter the office before I suggest something like the credo.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    rolling over white... sounds like warning flags to me.
  • HeitorCaballero
    Posts: 92
    In the old rite the Missa Privata is not sung. It worked well for centuries. There is an example of it on YouTube, absolutely beautiful, silence, no music. Of course I am not advocating we should do away with music because the other two forms of the old rite require music, as it should. I suggest we should do away with cantors when they are not needed or their role is confusing. Here is the link, by the way:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvY_GG8P9GU
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Francis, you are quite right. I am more than willing to give the priest a break from me. I can be rather persistent and that can irritate people especially when the subject of our traditions comes up. People in authority don't like it when the magisterium disagrees with them and we know it. I will say that when the diocesan bishop came to the parish and complimented him on the fact that the choir sang in Latin, he accepted the praise with his chest stuck out. Nevertheless, in the interest of continued employment, I will take your observation to heart.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    I only have cantors at the masses where I don't have a choir or schola. The choir and schola perform the role of cantor when they are present. My cantors are not readers, either. Other individuals do that.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    We shouldn't have cantors.


    I assume this meant that we shouldn't have arm-waving hymn leaders standing in the sanctuary. Cantors are very useful, for chanting the verses of psalms and such. There's no reason they can't be in the loft.


    Here's a routine reminder: If the alleluia is omitted, it must not be sung.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Lol, Ben.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    I assume this meant that we shouldn't have arm-waving hymn leaders standing in the sanctuary. Cantors are very useful, for chanting the verses of psalms and such. There's no reason they can't be in the loft.


    If they are proclaiming the psalm or verse in the gospel acclamation they should be in the sanctuary.

    Otherwise it would be akin to the lector standing in the loft for the first reading.
    Thanked by 1Spriggo
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Ours are in the other suitable place - the choir loft.
    Thanked by 3Ben Richard Mix tomjaw
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    PGA,

    I'm discussing the cantor, not the psalmist. From what I could tell as I leafed through the GIRM, everywhere it said cantor, it was always next to choir (the cantor or choir do this, the cantor or choir do that, the cantor alternates with the choir, etc), which leads me to believe the best place for a cantor is in the loft with everyone else.

    And even in the case of the psalmist, there is a provision for another suitable place, not to mention the weight of tradition of the gradual and alleluia always being sung from the loft.
    Thanked by 2ClergetKubisz francis
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    What you say is fine for the choral mass, but in a mass without choir, where the cantor is singing by himself or herself, to do so from a loft takes on a "voice of oz" quality, which, in my view is not desirable. Additionally, there has long been a role of a cantor as an animator of the congregation. When I get done researching Bach's development of the Clavierubung III, perhaps I'll research that some and post on it.
  • HeitorCaballero
    Posts: 92
    .. in a mass without choir, where the cantor is singing by himself or herself, to do so from a loft takes on a "voice of oz" quality, which, in my view is not desirable

    The mass should be spoken in these cases.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    The mass should be spoken in these cases.

    So my parish has three weekend masses. One is with the choir. The other two should not use cantors but should rather be spoken masses?
  • fcbfcb
    Posts: 338
    The other two should not use cantors but should rather be spoken masses?

    Yes, and they should be spoken in Latin with a French accent.
    Thanked by 2G Andrew Motyka
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,483
    OK... what's the difference between the cantor and a psalmist? For all practical purposes, it seems to be the same animal, I mean, person.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    The mass should be spoken in these cases.

    The mass should never be spoken.
    Spoken masses are the direct heirs of the unfortunate mediaeval development of priests' private daily masses at a multiplicity of side altars. Spoken worship is an historical aberration. The spoken mass should be forbidden. And, to that end, we should take a cue from the Orthodox and not ordain a man who can't (or won't) sing.

    Furthermore, every syllable from the opening salutation to the dismissal should be sung. This gradualism, whereby one starts with the dialogue and then adds the 'presidential prayers' and so forth, is inherently amateurish and leads to an inconsistent pastiche which is spiritually and literarily disruptive and irritating. Every imaginable portion of the mass other than the homily should be normatively sung.
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    I am a proponent of Singing the Mass.

    The GIRM says, "If the Psalm cannot be sung, then it should be recited..." and so that indicates to me that if cantor/psalmists are available, then the Psalm can be sung.

    And even for the propers--sure, "no singing" is an option, but of the "singing" options, only 2 of the 4 options involve the choir.

    So it seems to me that it would be best to work towards Singing the Mass.
  • Ignoto
    Posts: 126
    OK... what's the difference between the cantor and a psalmist?


    It is possible for the same person to serve in both roles--according to the GIRM, the psalmist is the "cantor of the psalm."

    GIRM 61: "Hence the psalmist, or cantor of the Psalm, sings the Psalm verses at the ambo or another suitable place"

    GIRM 102: It is the psalmist’s place to sing the Psalm or other biblical canticle to be found between the readings. To carry out this function correctly, it is necessary for the psalmist to be accomplished in the art of singing Psalms and have a facility in public speaking and elocution.

    In my mind, the psalmist should contemplate the Psalm text throughout the week in preparation for praying the Psalm and conveying the Scripture in a way that can be understood. A cantor would just begin the parts of the Ordinary (and perhaps even the Proper!) to help the congregation know when to start singing.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Yes, and they should be spoken in Latin with a French accent.

    You coulda had me at:
    "Zeh Lod bee weesyieux." But no....
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    melo:

    That's the English with a French accent. You need to write the Latin with a French accent.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Dohmeenyeuz vohbeescyeum. Et kieum spireetoh tieu-oh.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,817
    Wow, MJO. You are as good a melo!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    Goodness!
    Now all I need is my official curmudgeon's license!
  • G
    Posts: 1,400
    Now all I need is my official curmudgeon's license!
    Those are issued by your local Dept. of Wendi, I believe...

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    One of my parishes was reading the psalm before I got on board there. I asked around and people generally shrugged their shoulders, implying that they've always been read there/they don't know how or why to change it. All I had to do to get things changed to having the psalm sung was to let the readers know before mass that I would take the psalm. Now every mass there sings the psalm; it was an easy change for everyone.

    Regarding silence, I think silence competes with other things happening in the liturgy; for instance many of us are disturbed by having silence at the elevation, instead of a bell, especially when there is an armada of alter servers, and gleamingly polished bells in the sacristy.

    In the mass it's hard to get silence; what we get is motorcycle tailpipes, sirens, coughs, and babies. In that particular area, having a cantor and using bells offers sanctity, silence being impossible to obtain.

    When I was a kid, I was sure the priests waited for a moment of complete silence before reading the gospel, the creed, or the prayer after communion....like a teacher in class. So with cantors, we don't need an incredibly long silence for the meditation. We can have a moment for sacred music instead, and when we get to a silent part, the priest can ask people to recite with him a prayer to the BVM, to help sanctify the entire effort. One of our musicians insists on improvising during silences, and some people appreciate it, and some people feel like their silent space is being intruded upon; but that is her artistic prerogative. It's not something to be excommunicated over.
    Thanked by 1Jani
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    PGA,

    What's the difference between a voice of oz and a group of voices of oz? I see no difference, and from my reading of the GIRM, it doesn't appear to give a stark difference between the two (cantor, choir) either.
    Thanked by 1dad29
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,414
    ' ...recite with him a prayer to the BVM,...'

    Addressing prayers to anyone, even the BVM, during the mass is not allowed. The sole exception that I know of to this rule is the litany of the saints at the Easter vigil. Saints may be sung about on their feast days, they may be extolled in homilies, but none but the Triune God is addressed in prayer or supplication at the mass.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    And during the time for meditation after receiving Holy Communion? That's definitely misplaced. Some folks add a Hail Mary after the General Intercessions, but at Communion, people should be addressing God directly.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • ContinuousbassContinuousbass
    Posts: 357
    Addressing prayers to anyone, even the BVM, during the mass is not allowed
    That's what I thought but the pastor and all priests do there. They are of a Marian order.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    The mass should never be spoken.


    Cite the GIRM or a church document or explain that this is merely your private opinion to avoid confusing those looking for enlightenment.

    Singing Marian hymns was once an issue until the associate turned to the pastor and said, "Is she not the Mother of God?"

    The Cantor was the person that intoned chants to set pitch. Never a person to lead the people in singing. Modern idea, and a bad one at that. Those who actually sang with a cantor with Benedictine monks in the 1950's would know this.

    I wonder who pastors find the most difficult - organists, directors of music or associate pastors?
    Thanked by 1HeitorCaballero
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Those are issued by your local Dept. of Wendi, I believe...



    Yes but there is a test...and it's very tough.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    The mass should never be spoken.
    Spoken masses are the direct heirs of the horrid mediaeval development of priests' private daily masses at a multiplicity of side altars. Spoken worship is an historical aberration. The spoken mass should be forbidden. And, to that end, we should take a cue from the Orthodox and not ordain a man who can't (or won't) sing.

    Furthermore, every syllable from the opening salutation to the dismissal should be sung. This gradualism, whereby one starts with the dialogue and then adds the 'presidential prayers' and so forth, is inherently amateurish and leads to an inconsistent pastiche which is spiritually and literarily disruptive and irritating. Every imaginable portion of the mass other than the homily should be normatively sung.


    I <3 the local Byzantine parish for this.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Yes, our Byzantine liturgies are sung. They are also considerably longer than the current Latin norms. As a rule, we don't have daily liturgies so the "low mass" concept didn't develop like it did in the west. We tend to throw everything we've got into the Sunday liturgy. Also, the office is a bigger deal in the eastern churches. We pray the appropriate hours before Divine Liturgy, and Vespers is still common. Maybe the office is our alternative to daily masses.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I agree. I love how the eastern rites place such an emphesis on singing the liturgy. We could learn something from this. Especially with the flexibility of the OF, there's no reason not to chant the dialogs even at daily Mass.

    Here's a routine reminder: The Sung Liturgy is superior. Please move on.

    [Here's a routine reminder: No ventriloquism on the forum, please.--admin]
    Thanked by 1Gavin
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