Isaac Jogues Hymnal Project / Missal, Lectionary, Gradual
  • Richard J ClarkRichard J Clark
    Posts: 35
    Big Announcement about the Ordinary Form!:
    Isaac Jogues Hymnal Project / Missal, Lectionary, Gradual

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AFU2zrPrCO4
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    When will this become available? I would like to read through it.
  • Richard J ClarkRichard J Clark
    Posts: 35
    Begins shipping 14 May 2014!

    To learn more, go to CCWATERSHED.ORG/JOGUES
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    Thanks Richard.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Stunning!
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    Concerning this video's Reason #7: I'm not personally aware of the "many priests who have a hard time sleeping" worrying about what lyrics will be used at Mass the next day.

    One of the hymns shown in the video during this narration is "Touch the Earth Lightly," a very fine hymn about our responsibility to use God's gift of creation wisely. The graphic states that the hymn is copyright by GIA Publications. It is not. Both the text and tune are copyright by Hope Publishing Company.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Choirparts
  • RMSawicki
    Posts: 128
    Deo Gratias!

    I can't wait to get my copy of this (along with Illuminare's forthcoming Simple Gradual)!

    The "embarrassment of riches" continues!

    Gaudete in Domino Semper!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    "many priests who have a hard time sleeping" worrying about what lyrics will be used at Mass the next day.


    You have to be kidding! Many priests just want noise at mass to cover various actions. Somehow I have never found next day's lyrics to be a great cause for concern among the priests.
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    This is actually the first time anyone has ever used hyperbole to make a sales pitch.
    Thanked by 5Kathy matthewj Heath G ryand
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 542
    The graphic states that the hymn is copyright by GIA Publications. It is not. Both the text and tune are copyright by Hope Publishing Company.


    When someone misrepresents basic facts to me in a sales pitch, I start to wonder what else is being misrepresented...
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    No one makes honest mistakes, either. It's all deliberate deception to bilk you out of hard-earned dollars.
    Thanked by 1Kathy
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Funny, I'm playing the Dorian Toccata and Fugue tomorrow in my degree recital!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    This is actually the first time anyone has ever used hyperbole to make a sales pitch.

    And the moon is made of green cheese.
    Thanked by 3Andrew Motyka Kathy noel jones, aago
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I forwarded the video url to our new pastor.
    What I liked about JMO's pitch was that it made each sales point clearly and then moved onto the next.
    The visual and organizational attributes seem quite impressive.
    What remains to be determined is if this will either compel whole parish shifts in content use with the Latin/English companion texts, greater realization of the artistic heritage of the sacred treasury, or....
    Force decisions upon pastors, councils and directors to insure other supplemental resources remain in the budgets and pews.
    I will keep my lamp lit in the window for the day when families/pips bring their own personal missals to Mass, and there is a very comprehensive music book in the pews.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago CHGiffen hilluminar
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Keep the negative comments flowing and the attacks attacking, in the USA they have become the strongest form of advertising, making supporters of Jeff O's incredibly valuable work for the Church even more supportive of him and his family in their quest for excellence in music in the Church, and also sends those who have never heard of him and his work onto his site to see for themselves what the truth may be...

    In years to come, Jeffrey Ostrowski will be seen to be a major force in the renaissance of music in the Church along with Tucker, Oost-Zinner, and the entire staff at Musica Sacra. all working to bring the church back to where it was and where it still remains with Dr. Mahrt and his choir.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,515
    Fr. Chepponis,

    I'm well aware of a number of priests who have personal "black lists" of songs they will never, ever allow to be sung at any Mass in their parish (pastors) or at which they preside (other priests).

    It's a simple matter of subsidiarity, I suppose, and a system that is bound to be more and more effective as seminary liturgical expression improves by leaps and bounds.
    Thanked by 4noel jones, aago francis CHGiffen melofluent
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    What on earth (pun intended) does the hymn "Touch the Earth Lightly" have anything at all to do with the Sacrifice of the Mass? In my book, this is pantheism and is a distortion of faith. If you want to sing it for an earth day celebration at the park, have at it, but I don't think it belongs in the Mass. I am all for being stewards of creation, but we do not worship the earth, people.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    Now Francis, you just need to sing to the mountains, drink to the sea, seize your stein and hold it high... ;-)
    Thanked by 1francis
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    What on earth (pun intended) does the hymn "Touch the Earth Lightly" have anything at all to do with the Sacrifice of the Mass? In my book, this is pantheism and is a distortion of faith. If you want to sing it for an earth day celebration at the park, have at it, but I don't think it belongs in the Mass. I am all for being stewards of creation, but we do not worship the earth, people.


    Would you have the same reaction to singing something that talks about the sanctity of life at mass? Would you say "By all means, sing it at a pro-life rally, but it doesn't belong in the mass. We are not worshipping babies?"

    Now someone will be along to accuse me of equating the murder of children with not caring enough for the earth. I'm not doing that.

    But if, as part of our faith, you wouldn't hesitate to sing of the very real social justice issue that is abortion at mass, why would you hesitate to sing about the social justice issue involving care for the earth (at an appropriate time of course; not just on some random Sunday)?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I just listened to "Touch the Earth Lightly" on St. YouTube. I had not seen or heard it before. It has kind of a good drinking song timing or rhythm to it, I guess. It didn't include global warming, so the author somehow forgot that one. I think "For the Beauty of the Earth" is a far better hymn.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,199
    I cannot find information of the gradual translations used in this book. Are they of the gregorian missal of Solesmes or some other possibility?

    On the whole, I am excited about this book. We have gone from the Big 3 to a whole host of very fine publishers going a different way. As one who has the privilege of choosing a new pew hymnal/missal this next year and assisting two other parishes in the same decision, this will be something I will consider.

    Thank goodness for the embarrassment of riches or "other possibilities".
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    How much does it cost and is there an index listing what is in it?
  • ContraBombarde
    Posts: 471
    So has the Vatican II Hymnal been abandoned?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    How much does it cost

    Pricing for the St. Isaac Jogues Missal, Lectionary & Gradual (Book 1)
    $22.99 per copy for single copies
    $21.99 per copy for 5+ copies
    $19.99 per copy for 50+ copies
    $17.99 per copy for 200+ copies
    $15.99 per copy for 500+ copies
    $13.99 per copy for 1000+ copies

    The St. Isaac Jogues Parish Hymnal (Book 2) is coming, information to be made available in May 2014.

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    So has the Vatican II Hymnal been abandoned?

    My guess is that the Vatican II Hymnal is being more-or-less discontinued and that no update or revision is planned. What this means in support for users of the Vatican II Hymnal seems rather murky, right now. The fact that the Vatican II Hymnal has only been published for a scant few years before an entirely new hymnal is released by the same editor may cause some alarm or unhappiness with those who thought a quality hymnal should have a life time of at least 10 years.

    Nevertheless, the St. Isaac Jogues Project seems like an ambitious, worthy venture.
    Thanked by 1ContraBombarde
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    Paix:

    Two things:

    First, yes, I have a hard time turning the Mass into a platform for ANY issue because this again cheapens and distorts the purpose of the Mass; yes, even a pro-life theme. The Church has already set the theme for every Sunday, so "inventing" a theme is an innovation.

    There are those Masses that are said specifically for a cause, (i.e., Mass preceding the Right To Life March in DC). I have less a problem singing a pro-life text at a Mass like that, but that is by far an exception.

    Second, I find these earth-lover's/social justimites hymns tend to dominate the liturgy and skew the essence. They ARE sung regularly on random Sundays along with Sing A New Church... God, deliver us from that one! We have a dearth of these kinds of selections in our hymnals, which is a not so subtle trend to focus on WE THE PEOPLE OF THE EARTH, our hot buttons, taking up a cause, and 'we must do what is right to our mother', (and we are not talking about the BVM) type of thinking.

    If people were truly centered in on the very tennents of the faith and were living fully what they believed and espoused, pro-life and earth issues wouldn't even BE an issue. Somehow this type of hymnody translates into a 'battle cry for justice', no matter what the issue. The excessive concern for the poor and materially wanting is another example of this mislead thinking.

    In general, social justice and diversity has become the focus of the liturgy and not the sacrifice of Christ on the altar.
    Thanked by 3noel jones, aago hilluminar chonak
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    The discussion seems to have gone off on a tangent. Critiques of particular songs aside, I am happy to review any offering that brings more of our tradition back to the pews. The expense of any new hymnal mandates that I not get too far ahead of myself, since I won't be the one writing the check. Let's see what it looks like, then by all means, critique away.
    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Okay, the hymnal is a separate volume. Got it now.
  • DanielCDanielC
    Posts: 37
    One of the hymns shown in the video during this narration is "Touch the Earth Lightly," a very fine hymn about our responsibility to use God's gift of creation wisely. The graphic states that the hymn is copyright by GIA Publications. It is not. Both the text and tune are copyright by Hope Publishing Company.


    Fr. Chepponis,
    I believe that the tune does belongs to Hope Publishing Company, but I am certain that the typesetting and layout are copyright by GIA Publications.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    credit in Gather 4
    Picture 1.png
    744 x 763 - 160K
  • Fr. Jim Chepponis
    Posts: 220
    Francis: Yes, the tune used in Gather is copyright by GIA Publications. However, the example in the video cites a different tune, used in Worship IV, which is copyright by Hope Publishing Company.

    I am certain that the typesetting and layout are copyright by GIA Publications.
    Really? So, let's say that someone wishes to scan a hymn in the public domain from a hymnal into a worship aid. Does a person then also need to get permission from the company that produced the hymnal?

    What if someone decides to re-engrave a public domain hymn using the same software (e.g., Finale) that a publisher utilized in their hymnal, using the same layout. Is that a copyright violation?
  • kenstb
    Posts: 369
    No, it's not.
  • G
    Posts: 1,401
    green cheese

    Way OT, I just had some, it was wonderful, amazing! (I think it was herbs, not lack of maturity.)
    the "many priests who have a hard time sleeping" worrying about what lyrics will be used at Mass the next day

    I don't know about "many," but in my very limited experience I have twice had a visiting priest thank me for not having used, once, the "horror" (a direct quote,) and the other "the heresy" that each was expecting because of a popular church song that used some words similar to the readings of the day.
    Another time I received the beginning of a lecture, and I was able to truthfully apologize for not having read through all the verses, but suggest that he take it up with the DRE who had actually chosen the drek I merely accompanied.
    Priests do indeed, particularly those who are not pastors with any authority over the various parochial functionaries, fret about the songs they may encounter at Mass.
    One who is known to many people in the CMAA has talked about having to incorporate into his preaching a necessary correction to something a cantor has sung, IIRC.

    Full disclosure, I have not watched the video, slow connection.

    (Save the Liturgy, Save the World)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    Fr. Jim Chepponis 5:31PM Thanks
    Posts: 141
    Francis: Yes, the tune used in Gather is copyright by GIA Publications. However, the example in the video cites a different tune, used in Worship IV, which is copyright by Hope Publishing Company.

    That may be completely true, however, the tune is not the issue being addressed in the video; the theology of the text is, however, which is the same in both and is new age to the core.

    Granted, the credit is misleading and should be corrected, but that does not change the fact that again, numerous texts in our hymnals have nothing to do with the Catholic Faith, and actually, are heretical in nature.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago hilluminar
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    Really? So, let's say that someone wishes to scan a hymn in the public domain from a hymnal into a worship aid. Does a person then also need to get permission from the company that produced the hymnal?


    Yes, it is. The person is stealing the work of the engraver that was paid for by the publisher and is direct violation of US copyright. And everyone knows this.

    What if someone decides to re-engrave a public domain hymn using the same software (e.g., Finale) that a publisher utilized in their hymnal, using the same layout. Is that a copyright violation?


    If it is the standard layout that Finale produces, it not a copyright violation. But you must be unaware that Finale offers different ways to modify the appearance of music to improve readability and if the engraver uses those techniques and you then copy them , you are in violation of US copyright law because you are taking the work of another without paying for it.

    If there is no copyright protection, composers who are already starving, will surely die.


    Didn't Jeffrey Tucker say that? (ducking and running from >•< who will be in pursuit....and it will be seer-sucker.)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    FNJ

    I suppose I fall into the category of a 'starving composer'. I am not dead, in fact, far from it! I SHOULD be better off than I am since I am a Roman Catholic composer dedicated to the true art and craft of authentic sacred music, but I am exiled to the fringes of the Church because I have the guts to stand up for the truth and at the same time compose authentic Catholic Music that requires a professional and dedicated musician to perform it, not to mention that I prefer Latin, which, this day and age, is frowned upon by the very people who own it.
    Thanked by 2noel jones, aago CHGiffen
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    Maybe this video would be better as a supplementary promotional video, with a more basic one to lead off. While book design is valuable, I doubt that average pastors want to hear about the design features first.

    Does this video actually show the cover of the missal?

  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    Does this video actually show the cover of the missal?

    No, it doesn't.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,850
    chonak

    Excellent point. What would be a very good video would be demonstrating it being used in an actual liturgy with a great sound track.
  • benstoxbenstox
    Posts: 23
    What translation does the included lectionary use, does anyone know? I don't live in the United States, and it had come to my attention before that different lectionary translations are in use by different bishops' conferences. I will likely purchase one regardless, but I'm interested to know.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,986
    I am curious about the hymn layout. I had genuine issues with the layout in the Vatican II hymnal and wonder if the new hymnal is more standard. What about hymn accompaniments? Are they closer to standard and known harmonizations and not newly written? That video didn't answer the questions I wanted answered.
    Thanked by 1Richard Mix
  • Bob_Nardo
    Posts: 19
    This is a very exciting project, along with Bartlett / Illuminare's Lumen Christi Series. I am thrilled to be helping to choose new missals/hymnals for our parish right now.

    1. I don't think there are any details out about the product yet, other than what's in the video yet -- e.g. no table of contents or detailed summary. (BTW, Bartlett, who has been promoting LC for longer now, has a spectacular full preview of every page of LC...) I imagine more details will be forthcoming to satisfy our curiosity. *From what I can tell*, this seems almost analogous to that other project, in that this book seems to be more focused on the Order, Ordinary (how many settings? they only mentioned JO's setting), and Propers (text only?), and the subsequent edition will be the hymnal. Of course the artwork is also spectacular.

    2. As for Vatican II Hymnal: There is still a link on the CCW website with all of the support materials for it, so folks can still find their accompaniments, etc. I am inferring that, in a sense, this is really a very substantially updated successor to VII by another name. For instance, it might seem random that Jogues video's first selling point was the font size, until those familiar with VII remember that the arguably small font was one of the minor flaws. (Splitting it into two books, though you lose the wholeness of it, also practically helps to respond to that concern.)

    If Ostrowski can be lightly questioned for the light details in the initial rollout, it may be excusable to some extent given the eager demand of many in his audience! :-) Suffice it to say, I really pressed the woman on the phone about the exact timeline for delivery!

    (Edited)

    3. I hesitate to wade into the side debate on the attribution of "Touch the Earth Lightly" (FWIW, never heard it), but I googled for the sheet music, and the first full option that pops up is this version from GIA's own website, which seemingly claims the full copyright. So, honest misunderstanding, it seems...
    https://www.giamusic.com/pdf_previews/pdfdocument_previewimages/G7175INST_sample.pdf/thumbnail_page_1.png
  • DanielCDanielC
    Posts: 37
    Good info, Bob_Nardo

    So to those who were so vehement that the CCWatershed folks were violating copyrights and lying... Do these same accusations now apply to GIA?
  • Marc Cerisier
    Posts: 542
    I hesitate to wade into the side debate on the attribution of "Touch the Earth Lightly" (FWIW, never heard it), but I googled for the sheet music, and the first full option that pops up is this version from GIA's own website, which seemingly claims the full copyright. So, honest misunderstanding, it seems


    Copyright is nuanced. What you linked to is an instrumental part that GIA is the copyright holder for. That says nothing about the text or melody.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,611
    A priest has stated that everything I have stated below is totally wrong, so ignore what is written below because he has said that I know nothing and I bow to his knowledge. I apologize if I have contributed to the sweaty handwringing. Anyone who sends me a Gather hymnal as a response to all of this...has a sick sense of humor.

    Copyright is nuanced. What you linked to is an instrumental part that GIA is the copyright holder for. That says nothing about the text or melody.


    GIA has failed to list the original copyright holder's information. While this by itself could be considered an original composition, the fact that it is based upon the harmonies and melody combined that appear to be copyright by another firm would indicate that this is a violation of copyright and the original owner would need to grant permission.

    So, it is clear that on a basic copyright search, CCW could easily have identified the copyright holder as GIA due to GIA's failure to provide attribution to another publisher and instead claiming copyright.

    It's forgivable for a small, independent publishing house without a legal office to search copyrights to err when the erroneous information comes from major publishers who claim copyright as GIA did here.

    GIA was responsible to list the copyright owner of the melody for this derivative work. They dropped the copyright ball, not CCW.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Andrew Motyka
    Posts: 946
    All this hand-wringing over a small caption that showed up for one second in a video that was only mentioning a piece in an off-hand way.
    Thanked by 5CharlesW CHGiffen Adam Wood francis matthewj
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Church musicians going overboard on a small-insignificant-point?

    THAT NEVER HAPPENS.
    Thanked by 5CharlesW Andrew Motyka Adam Wood CHGiffen Salieri
  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    The website for this hymnal boasts this, with a similar claim in the video: "For the first time in history, the texts of the Vatican II Gradual are made accessible, so Catholics in the pews can actively participate!" But Adam Bartlett's Lumen Christi Missal, which is a pew resource, prints both the Gradual and Roman Missal proper texts. That book was published in 2012. So how can that claim be accurate?
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    cf. Also the Gregorian Missal and the Simple English Propers.
  • doneill
    Posts: 208
    The Gregorian Missal and Simple English Propers are not pew resources, though. I was interpreting "made accessible" as in the pews, considering the concluding phrase. There are also many parishes since Vatican II that have printed the Gradual translations in their worship aids.
    Thanked by 1Salieri
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,199
    The St. Jogues page promises more information, including a list of contents, within 7 days.
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