And this IS where the church has little place but to take a stand. The Bishops have admitted and agreed that they must take control over the texts of songs at Mass and do not, I am sure, have a clue how to go about this.

Are we wrong to guide them?

The question is this...is the consecrated bread the Body of Christ. Or are we taught that when we receive the Body of Christ we also NEED TO LOOK BEYOND IT?

If we are called into court and with a hand on the bible asked if we, as Catholics, BREAK BREAD TOGETHER ON OUR KNEES....do we lie? Or asked if we GATHER ROUND THE TABLE....do we do so?

Letting children sing and believe through these and other songs may explain why a priest friend pulls his hair out when children tell him that when they go to Heaven they are going to be Angels.

Tax Evasion and Lyrics That Rhyme But Do Not Reason are good bedfellows. It's time.

I'm not a fan of "Look Beyond", but isn't there some possible orthodox interpretation of that Damean ditty?

I've always taken it to mean:
"Look (metaphorically, by faith) beyond the sensible accidents of the Eucharistic species...."

I hate this song.

If it is ever possible to demonstrate what makes music bad or good by any objective means, I am pretty sure “Look Beyond” will be the poster child for bad music.

"So you advocate getting rid of "Adoro Te" because of the verse about the Pelican? I don't think children would get that."

That's one part of the hymn that children WOULD understand....and one of the strongest hymn texts I know. The guy that wrote that hymn should have been made a saint. oh, he was.

"Ban "Praise My Soul" because of the line "In his hand he gently bears us"? Certainly can't go around teaching that God has a physical body!"

But he DOES bears us in His hand.

But you do not, I believe "bless the cup", do you? And do you receive the Precious Blood from Earthen Vessels?

"And if the PIPs really ARE so dumb that they can't figure out "Look Beyond", why SHOULD we use anything but the current ICEL translation? "Dew of your spirit" is certainly more obtuse than "look beyond the bread you eat, see your savior and your lord." Heck, I'm not even sure I understand what that means!"

It's not that dumb people in the pews that we need to be concerned about. It's the thinking ones, especially the children who can understand symbolism but cannot understand things that are illogical.

How do you handle it when a kid sings, "I am the Bread of Life." and than asks, "I am?"

It's truth in advertising, the words spoken in church must be words that are the faith.

Here's a list...

Ashes
Look Beyond
To Be Your Bread
Earthen Vessels
We Have No Glory
One Bread, One Body
To Be Your Bread
Gift of Finest Wheat
Sing to the Mountains
Flow River Flow
I Am The Bread Of Life
Let Us Break Bread

Any song that list listed as BASED UPON a psalm. People. It is a Psalm. Sing it as it is. Don't change it. It's part of the Bible.

Eagles Wings

This is the beginning of a list of sings that must be examined. Some have severe theological issues. Some have the major flaw of the people taking upon themselves roles that are not theirs....do WE bless the cup (all priests on the list are exempt from that question) and are WE the bread of life?

WE need to stop singing that WE are something we are not. WE need to start a list and let people know what the flaws we see are.

But Noel, those texts are NOT all objectively contrary to Catholic teaching. Unless you are discounting the discussions had on this forum with myself, Cantor and others, these texts are not plainly contrary to Catholic teaching. In fact, I would gladly of my free will use "I am the Bread of Life" and "Gift of Finest Wheat" in Catholic worship, as appropriate. You prohibit pieces based upon psalms, but I challenge you to TRY to keep me from singing "The King of Love my Shepherd Is" or "O God Our Help in Ages Past". You'll find out the true meaning of "Fightin' Irish"! You do not have a consistent metric for exclusion of these texts. Well, you may SAY "these are inconsistent with Catholic theology", but what that means is "Noel thinks they're inconsistent with Catholic theology". And by all means, Noel may be right! He's certainly right about Ashes (although he left out "Supper of the Lord" - look it up, the theology is 100% Lutheran!) But beyond that, what's his metric? Songs that use figurative language? Any text that has the "b word" (bread)?

I would propose that you do not have a consistent metric which would eliminate those texts and leave others which are both traditional and valued. And I don't say that because I don't want those songs (with the exceptions listed) to disappear; I do!! BUT when you take your rationale for not using these songs to Das Liturgikommittee chaired by a "progressive liturgist", you need to have a stronger case than "these songs are contrary to the Faith". You need to articulate it solidly for each and every case, otherwise your case will have holes blown through it just like one can regularly see Todd from "Catholic Sensibility" doing. Until you're building your case for purgation from the Faith itself and not from your own biases, you won't CONVINCE anyone. I know, I've been there.

It is not in line with the tradition of the Church to prohibit any text that uses the word "bread". I see NOTHING wrong with "Gift of Finest Wheat". Some of the Communion Antiphons for the Church year say "He fed them with finest wheat". Clearly the Church would have us sing that phrase during the reception of Communion. Unfortunately, Noel, your argument does not hold water, as already illustrated beautifully by Gavin.

Unfortunately, I believe that it is going to be very hard to continue this battle unless and until the Church makes much stronger and unequivocal statements. Every single time the Church speaks officially or non-officially, on the record, or off the record on the liturgy, She seems to suggest that wisdom is in the middle. In the documents, sections speak of allowing different styles in the liturgy. When pressed by someone posing a question, Cardinal Arinze even allowed for the occasional use of guitars in the liturgy for what he called "special occasions". I agree WHOLE-HEARTEDLY that the "mind of the Church" and Her traditions suggest the use of chant and "better" truly sacred music. The writings of Pope Benedict suggest his preference. But in the interest of being pastoral, it seems that the Church is not ready to PROHIBIT and BAN types and styles of music or instruments. Therefore, we can (and should) keep fighting this battle, but bear in mind that we have scant evidence in favor of a "chant only" position or a "ban guitars/pianos altogether" platform.

Songs that papraphrase and twist the meaning of psalms should definitely be banned. Any alteration of accepted translations should be vetted by the local bishop....unless you are in Portland, OR, where they approve ANYTHING....before use.

Gift of Finest Wheat isn't the strongest example to use for this argument, I'm afraid.

But, in defense of my position regarding "Sing the Chant", and in support of Noel's broader assertion, all we need do is look to the official texts to be sung for Corpus Christi as found in the Gregorian Missal to find the richness of the teaching of the Church in terms of Eucharistic theology.

The file cabinets in our choir room are 1/3 or more full of trash that is not fit for mass. Selections range from something set to a theme from "The Sound of Music," to "Lead Me Lord." I don't know if my predecessor is responsible or if the stuff is older than that. Something is leading me to make some secretive trips to the dumpster in the dark of night.

Why is "One Bread, One Body" on the list as well?

To be sure, it's no piece of musical genius; it was conceived for strumming guitars. But what is wrong with the text? The text is wholly scriptural. In as much as the people will sing it, it can be accompanied on the organ, and it is wholly scriptural (and almost verbatum with the communion antiphon for several Sundays of the year) I see no real reason not to sing it.

Just in moments ago:

Eucharist vs. the Word

And More on Forms of Absolution

ROME, NOV. 11, 2008 (Zenit.org).- Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.
Q: Could you succinctly state the relationship between the importance of the Eucharist versus the Word of God in the liturgy of the Mass? I was on a Eucharistic retreat with a group of Catholics, when the leader of our group said that we as Catholics believe that the Word of God is as important as the Eucharist. I have always been taught that the Eucharist is the source and summit of our faith, but after she said this I did some research into adoration of the Blessed Sacrament and the Word of God, and it seemed that there was more than a little validity to her statement since the "Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" ... and God speaks to us though his inspired Word, etc. Please clarify this. -- N.C., Cleveland, Ohio

A: I would like to begin this answer by recalling a conversation I had during my seminary years with an elderly Catholic layman while on vacation in upstate New York. This wise gentleman, of Lithuanian descent, rented canoes in the Adirondacks and often dealt with evangelical Christians who tried to win him over by saying they had the Good Book. He replied that as a Catholic he not only had the Book but moreover frequently met the Author.

Although one might discuss the theological precision of the anecdote, it does reflect a fundamental truth with respect to the different forms in which Christ is present to us. God certainly speaks to us through his inspired Word, and the Church teaches that he is present when the Scriptures are read. This presence, however, as Pope Paul VI teaches in his encyclical "Mysterium Fidei" is a real but transitory presence enduring while the liturgical reading lasts. It is, therefore, not of the same class as the substantial real presence found in the Eucharist.

From another angle we can also consider how Scripture is fulfilled in Eucharistic worship.

"The Word was made flesh and dwelt amongst us" this is the foundation of our faith. However, the same Word who took flesh in Mary's womb, who died, rose and ascended, is the same one who said, "This is my body … this is my blood," and is thus present body, soul and divinity under the species of bread and wine. In every Eucharistic celebration the entire mystery of Christ from the incarnation to the ascension is truly made present anew, albeit under the veil of sign and symbol.

From this perspective the Eucharist is thus "more important" than Scripture because Scripture's ultimate goal is to lead us to union with Christ through full participation in the Mass. The Mass is a sharing in the worship which the Incarnate Word offers to the Father in the Holy Spirit.

Yet, from a different perspective and precisely in the context of the Mass, the question as to the relative importance of Scripture vis-[-vis the Eucharist is relatively meaningless.

In every Mass we are like the disciples going to Emmaus, except we already know that Christ is present among us. Like them, our hearts should burn as we listen to Moses, the prophets and the New Covenant as they speak about Christ. At the same time we are aware that in the end we will recognize him only in the breaking of bread.

Therefore it is not a question of the superiority of one over the other but of an inseparable interrelationship and ordering of one toward the other. Precisely because Scripture is ordered toward Eucharistic worship, the celebration's external form necessarily follows the road to Emmaus. All the historical evidence available shows us that the celebration of the Word and the Eucharist have always formed a single act of worship. Likewise, Scripture is so intimately intertwined within the fabric of every single prayer that we can say that without Scripture there could be no Catholic liturgy.

Conversely, and from a historical perspective it is also partially true that without liturgy there would be no Scripture, for one of the major criteria for determining which books eventually made it into the biblical canon was whether the book was read in the liturgical assembly.

Therefore the contraposition of Word and Eucharist does not correspond to an authentically Catholic vision of their intimate relationship.

It is true that, historically, Catholics have not been assiduous Bible readers. During the greatest part of the Church's existence books were a luxury few could read and fewer could afford. The lack of direct Bible reading did not mean that there was total biblical illiteracy. Most Christians were imbued with biblical salvation history through church decorations in painting, sculpture and stained glass. The huge reredos enshrining the high altars of many cathedrals harmoniously wove in the stories of Genesis, kings, prophets, Jesus' ancestry and the principal events of the New Testament, while centering everything on the sacrifice of the altar. In this way they provided a visible scriptural background to Catholic worship.

In today's changed circumstances the Church actively encourages all Catholics to possess, read and meditate on the Good Book, while not forgetting to make frequent visits to the Author.


----------------------

May I add that I am the last person to claim that I, in the life I have lived, in the words that I have said, consider myself better than anyone on this list, or on earth.

A friend asked me the other day, "Excuse me, I don't know how to ask this, so I am just going to do it. I really can't see you working in a church."

So, I'n not a hisser at a TLM Mass. If anything I would be the target of hissing. I have been known to and recently chastised for not remaining in the church during a sermon.

So all the things I post here are questions of wonder. I stand, when I guess that I should be kneeling, in awe of God.

I do not feel the style of music currently prevalent nor the texts being written reflect the awe of God that they should, and rather more accurately seem to be appropriate for a rock star, clutching a guitar and singing about tragedy before they retire to the wings, get in their limo and go back to a hotel room which they intend to destroy before leaving town.

Gavin:

Setting aside the argument for or against the use of hymnody (texts and tunes) borrowed from our Protestant (read: separated) brethren, I invite you to open up any one of the many hymnals available from the "big three." Turn to the section marked "Eucharist" and find for me one hymn, just one, that makes clear reference to any one of the following theological, dogmatic teachings of the Church: body, blood, soul or divinity of Christ present in the Eucharist. Now count how many use the words, "us, bread, cup, loaf, food, meal, table."

The problem isn't with texts derived from scripture, as "Gift of Finest Wheat" and "I Am the Bread of Life" are. The problem is that all we ever hear about is how "God becomes bread" and "we become bread" and "share your bread." Bread, bread, bread. Formulas (words) are not Truths, but they reveal truths. When you tamper with them, or dilute their meaning, you risk tampering with the Truths they reveal. For most progressivist types the phrase, "He gave them bread from heaven containing within it all sweetness" would stick in their throats like a dry crust of bread because it contains both poetic beauty and points to a Truth about the Eucharist they don't want to focus on: The Eucharist and receiving the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ contained within it are something that comes to us from heaven, and it's not about us.

Let me point out something even more important about these hymns from the "Eucharist" section and why they should be avoided. When looking at the official books of chant, more specifically the texts, appointed for the communio on any given Sunday, one more commonly finds passages from the psalms or the gospel of the day, or some connection between it and the other processional chants for the day. Nowhere at any time do we read by example or instruction that the song, hymn, whatever, at the communion procession needs to make references to the Eucharist, let alone to us being bread. Once again, it's not about us, it's about the mystery and transcendent experience of encountering God in a way unlike any other.

In a nutshell, and with limited exceptions (which I'm sure will be rapidly pointed out to me), even if the texts of the more popular "sacro-pop" ballads sung during communion at your average suburban parish are based on scripture, they tend to shift the focus from the experience of encountering the transcendent God to an exercise in sollopsism.


SAY the BLACK, DO the RED, SING the CHANT

Many years ago I have found it necessary to use the following criteria
when selecting music for Mass from our hymnal. I needed to efficiently use my choirs rehearsals time, and my planning time to create effective liturgies at a large suburban parish while holding two jobs. I gave the hymnal a once- over and used a heavy marker to cross out rejected hymns so I did not have to give them any more thought. I also circled the "approved" pieces. This is mostly a time saver for planning and keeps you prepared for sessions with the liturgy committee.
The Following criteria is a based on a hierarchy starting with the lowest level and is meant
as a very simple guide through this mess.
Eliminate songs which:( get a marker and put a big "x" through the entire piece. This is important).
1. Contain texts which can be accepted by an atheist without a conscious objection.
2. Have no content about God
3. Refer to the altar as "table", and the Eucharist as "bread," "wine," "cup" in the absence of acknowledging the real
presence.
4. The text's content does not move much beyond the message of "we are here" or "we are people."
5. Say "It's all about me." - the conspicuous "I" songs
6. The musical form cannot be performed with excellence.
7. The musical form is inferior.
8. depend far too much on a unique accompaniment or cannot be sung well acapella.
9. if the repertoire is becoming too large and the congregation seems to loose possession of THEIR music.

Select music which:
1. Addresses God the Father directly -especially for the entrance hymns.
2. do not vary from the actual texts of the psalms and the ordinary ordinary,
3. Expresses the movement and action of prayer: adoration, praise , contrition, thanksgiving,.
In this way the music become prayer.an action , a "verb" in a sentence. I 've told liturgy committees that there are
two types of hymns;
hymns that act like verbs or actions,
in contrast to hymns which act like nouns or themes.
for example, instead of singing about St. Joseph, I would praise God for St. Joseph.
4. Has a record of success
5. is Gregorian hymn (Latin or English)
6 Use the Latin chant ordinaries or ordinaries which resemble Catholic chant
7. Use propers whenever possible;or hymns which resemble the propers
8. The congregation or choir could eventually sing well, even in your absence.
9 The congregation (please include yourself) will expect to be hearing or singing in heaven.

Ralph, not sure where you are, but many parish closings are predicated on two major factors: needs to raise money to pay off abuse lawsuits and changing demographics. If you look in the suburbs, Catholic church congregations are growing in many places. I don't think the faithful are shrinking in number. They are just moving about.

We have over 700,000 Catholics in 38 parishes and a diocese with 59 active duty diocesan and religious order priests, including the bishop. Our 42-year-old pastor has commented that he is the third youngest priest in the diocese. There are 4 men in the seminary right now. Do the math. But the music is pretty much the same here and it's not keeping them away!

Actually we're pretty fortunate that most Catholics aren't really strong believers. If every one of ours said a 5 minute confession as required during the Easter season our priests would be booked solid 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 25 weeks!

Well, your problem CAN be solved, as I just found this: http://www.thecatholichymnal.com/ I could make criticisms of it, but the fact is that this is THE BEST SOURCE AVAILABLE for sound Catholic texts and music to sing at Communion! Thanks Noel!!

Noel, that hymnal looks really good. Has there been a thread on it? I'll make one.

frogman:

As it has been said many times... 'it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness' and with this you have lit a blow torch! Our thnx.

I have embarked upon the Nihil Obstat....will tell you how the quest progresses. It is important to me that this happens.

I concur with David Anrew in his comment about the "Eucharist" section in many popular hymnals. However, some hymnals have a"Benediction" section, and often thoses hymns actually touch on the Truth of the Eucharist.

Looking back over the last 150 years in hymnals and making choices for An Anthology: Eucharistic Hymns • Benediction • Hymns To Mary, it became clearer and clearer to me how low the hymns have sunk. Reading through the texts of these "old" hymns reminds one of the pride of being a Catholic. And the true focus of our faith.

Alleluia Alleluia Let The Holy Anthem Rise

verse 2 problem text: "... his death was ONLY slumber ..."

Summary: Jesus was not dead but rather unconscious (swooning means fainting)
when taken down from the cross, and later revived in the cool of the tomb.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swoon_hypothesis

In my choir hymnal I noted a possible solution:
modify text from "ONLY" to "SHORT AS" (death was real, duration was brief)

I had misgivings about this text, but ended up selecting the hymn for use as the final hymn on Easter Sunday. After the weekly Wed eve Holy Hour (adoration and benediction), a parishioner approached me to talk about this very text. The gentleman does not sing, but always opens the hymnal to the scheduled numbers and reads along. I wonder how many other parishioners noticed, but have not bothered to talk to me. Worse, I wonder about the "twice-a-year visitors" whose minds received this bit of bad catechesis.

I thought the problem with Alleluia, Alleluia... is it sounds like a drinking song.

I just saw it a few days ago and would like to take a good stab at it!