Charismatic movement information
  • Hi everybody,
    I don't want to come across as a troll. I love sacred music (I've written a little of my own as well) and I love the traditions of the church, the TLM, and all that sort of thing.

    But I've been reading a bit lately about the Catholic charismatic movement and I'm a bit confused. I've gathered from this forum and others that it's something to avoid, but I've never really found why. Can you give me any arguments against it? I'm eager to be convinced.

    Please help me out before I start something awkward! Maybe praying in tongues... ugh
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,169
    Well, it's a mixed bag, like many of the renewal movements of the past 40 years. I'm not sure there's any urgency to express concerns about whatever weaknesses it has: it seems to have peaked in influence in the late 80s.

    Perhaps other readers can point you to some analysis of the movement with a consideration of its strengths and weaknesses.
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    futurefatherz, there is nothing wrong with being charismatic (having gifts). We all have gifts of the Holy Spirit and should celebrate those gifts.
    The issue is what is perceived as charismatic (doing things with charisma) is not what it is all about. This is taken from a southern Baptist style of worship, getting up and shouting Amen or speaking in (what people perceive to be) tongues.

    I attended a Pentecostal service a month ago because my wife got hired on to play some music for them. I was difficult for me to hear the pastor because of all the "Yes, Jesus", "Amen", and speaking in tongues. The music was happy clappy, and that is ok, I guess for this type of service.

    The Catholic Church does not deny the gifts of the Holy Spirit but keep this mind.
    The Mass is a sacred re-presentation of the sacrifice of Jesus' death and resurrection.
    Music that is fitting of such a sacrifice should be played at Mass.
    unfortunately the charismatic movement confuses the gifts of the Holy Spirit as meaning that you need to do everything with charisma. They miss the whole point of sacrifice.

    The charismatic movement can be an inspiring thing but it should be left to outside of Mass. The only gift that means anything to me at Mass is the gift of my Savior in the True Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity. My gifts have nothing to do with it, except that I do my best to produce beautiful music for such a great sacrifice.

    One more thing to consider, In Acts 2:4-6, when the apostles spoke in tongues, they were speaking so every one in the crowd could understand them. Not gibberish.
    In 1 Cor 12:10 many gifts are given for the common good. "to one is given .... the utterance of Wisdom, ... knowledge ,,, faith ... healing ... working of miracles ... prophecy ... distinguishing between spirits . various kinds of tongues, ... interpretation of tongues. these are all apportioned as the spirit wills.
    I have been to a number of these services and the only gifts they all claim is healing (by laying on of hands and prayer) and speaking in tongues. All of the other gifts are no where to be seen, especially the one you would think that would be present is the interpretation of tongues. No one there has any idea what is being said by anyone else. Now why do you suppose the Holy Spirit would have people talking in a language that no one understands and no one can interpret. It all sounds a little weird to me.

    I love their enthusiasm and if they are really speaking in tongues and healing people more power to them "God IS Great" but the Mass should be left as it is and as it has always been.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    The origins of the movement seem to be from Pentecostalism. If you subscribe to that theology, fine - just keep it where you are and not where I am. Now if you really want to hear some speaking in tongues, wait until I trip over some of the chorister junk in the choir loft.
    Thanked by 1ryand
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,169
    In general, there is a concern about where the movement gets its ideas: are theories from non-Catholic sources adopted without an adequate theological examination?

    One particular point of concern is in the practice of "prophecy" in prayer meetings. I used to see groups letting certain individuals present little exhortations every week as "prophecy": sometimes people with questionable mental abilities giving messages that were harmless but pointless, and probably just the fruit of the person's own spiritual meditation rather than an authentic exercise of spiritual gifts.
  • Thanks to all of you. It's good to see people who don't see it as being in itself evil.

    CharlesW-I would be interested in hearing both what you think Pentecostalism is and what you think is wrong with that.

    chonak-I totally agree about the necessity of theological examination (and the curbing of false "prophecy"). Much of the ideas I've read (written by charismatics) seemed slightly strange, and I have yet to check their scripture verses they have given for some of their ideas. They may be good verses, but I'm afraid I may find some eisgesis in there.

    donr-I would agree wholeheartedly that "save the liturgy, save the world" comes before any gifts you may otherwise have.
    In Acts 2:4-6, when the apostles spoke in tongues, they were speaking so every one in the crowd could understand them. Not gibberish.
    In 1 Cor 12:10 many gifts are given for the common good. "to one is given .... the utterance of Wisdom, ... knowledge ,,, faith ... healing ... working of miracles ... prophecy ... distinguishing between spirits . various kinds of tongues, ... interpretation of tongues. these are all apportioned as the spirit wills.
    I have been to a number of these services and the only gifts they all claim is healing (by laying on of hands and prayer) and speaking in tongues. All of the other gifts are no where to be seen, especially the one you would think that would be present is the interpretation of tongues. No one there has any idea what is being said by anyone else. Now why do you suppose the Holy Spirit would have people talking in a language that no one understands and no one can interpret. It all sounds a little weird to me.

    In my reading the apostle's gift of tongues was different from the charismatic gift (that you term, perhaps correctly, "gibberish"). The interpretation of tongues, according to them, is similar to prophecy--it's complicated, but apparently prayer in tongues (i.e. in a group) is different from the charismatic gift of tongues mentioned in Corinthians. The gift of interpretation of tongues isn't the interpretation of the prayer tongues, but rather the interpretation of the Corinthian gift. Or that's how I gathered it, anyway.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    Pentecostalism, as in "Church of God" in its various incarnations, places too much emphasis on the individual and his/her/its relationship with "The Spirit," whatever that spirit may be. There is no teaching, doctrinally authoritative church which determines truth or fiction. They have scripture, yes, but we all know how that can turn into a bottomless pit when left solely up to individual interpretation. I am Byzantine Catholic. We don't shake and tremble, see heavenly bodies move from their appointed courses, mumble in unknown languages, or take up the serpent. We also have a dim view of all the above.
  • Pentecostalism, as in "Church of God" in its various incarnations, places too much emphasis on the individual and his/her/its relationship with "The Spirit," whatever that spirit may be. There is no teaching, doctrinally authoritative church which determines truth or fiction.


    Like all Protestant churches...
    Would you be able to elaborate more? Or is your point just that the Charismatic movement seems to have evolved from Protestantism, taking in its evolution Protestantism's lack of ultimate authority?

    By the way, I love the Byzantine liturgy! I'm a Roman rite Catholic myself, but my parents took me and the siblings to a Byzantine church for a year or so when I was about 11. We hadn't found any TLMs nearby, and we wanted to avoid a little bit of the antiliturgical stuff that was going on in almost all of the churches nearby. I remember lots of singing, particularly "Lord have mercy"...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    Yes, lots of "Lord have mercy." I hope He is listening and answers that prayer!

    I think the Charismatic Movement did pick up practices from Protestantism. Having been present during Vatican II and its aftermath, I have thought the Roman Rite in the U.S. in general, picked up some things from Protestantism, not all of them good. I am leery of the concept of "I felt this or that, therefore the spirit told me to (fill in the blanks here)" Here in the south, there is a Pentecostal church of some stripe always nearby. Some of them are aligned with national denominations, while some are so independent they can get a bit scary in practice and belief. There is a snake handling Pentecostal church not more than 40 miles from here. That's the extreme of course, and their snakes get confiscated regularly by the state since keeping poisonous snakes is illegal in this state.
  • Good to hear--thanks for the input.

    I agree that important decisions can't be made by feelings alone, any more than by Sola Scriptura. I think, though, the Holy Spirit can and does occasionally tell one to (fill in the blank). That's where discernment comes in--which is supposedly another charismatic gift, although I'm sticking to Ignatius of Loyola for now.
    And I would never condone snake handling. I wonder how they square that with the Bible.
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    take up the serpent


    Sorry, couldn' help it.
    411 x 640 - 106K
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    You know discerning is a gift of the Holy Spirit but it is not up to you to verify that discernment. This is why the Lord set up a Church. If you have a specific gift. You should go to the bishop so that the church can determine if it is from God or another source.
  • True. If you have a specific, verifiable gift that is clearly attached to you as an individual, the hierarchy's decision should be sought.

    From what I've read, the charismatic gifts themselves do exist, but only at limited times, e.g. you may do some sort of prayer healing once, but never again. The Holy Spirit (it is said) can work through anybody in any way He wants, thus these gifts will only sometimes manifest themselves.

    I agree, however, that for a specific, prolonged, and publicized ministry of charismatic gifts (such as Frank Kelly), it would be wise discernment to get your local bishop's approval. The Charismatic renewal as a whole, so far as I know, has been approved however.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,169
    Some relevant writings:

    An article from the "Faith and Reason" journal of Christendom College finds wanting some attempts to examine an essentially Protestant experience of "baptism in the Spirit", arising from a Wesleyan-Holiness doctrinal environment, and reconcile it with the Catholic doctrines of Christian initiation:
    http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=2673

    A theological evaluation of the charismatic experience, from the liturgical journal "Antiphon":
    http://www.liturgysociety.org/JOURNAL/Volume9/9_2/9.2Joy.pdf

    The 1974 Malines (Belgium) document: an early effort by Kilian McDonnell, OSB, based on a consultation of charismatic movement leaders and theologians, to provide a Catholic interpretation of the movement's experience and terminology:
    http://webmedia.jcu.edu.s3.amazonaws.com/pdf/Suenens Writings/A Theological and Pastoral Orientations On The Catholic Cha.pdf

    A cautionary note comes from "Enthusiasm: A Chapter in the History of Religion", the classic book by Msgr. Ronald Knox examining the history of revivalistic movements, several of which claimed to exercise charismatic gifts. An essay about the book is here.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    Salieri, my bass section often makes me wish for a couple of those serpents.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Hey, I'd like to borrow some of those for my bass section as well.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Charismatic catholicism = protestant influenced catholicism.
    All protestant influence = bad.

    Some elements of Anglo-Catholicism, "High" Lutheranism are good. Their contributions to sacred music have been important to the extant that they kept using the traditional roman catholic texts in latin/english/german and didn't deviate from them.
    Other aspects that they maintained in common with RC's are also of value actually.
    neither of them has anything to do with pentecostals.

    Pentecostals are very very innovative protestants.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    I don't understand anything about this conversation.

    "Charismatic" is a broad label.

    Some faithful, orthodox Catholics refer to themselves as "charismatic."

    Some weird and crazy people with alleged membership in the Catholic Church do as well.

    Some fussbudgety puritan Catholics use the word as insult against other Catholics who don't identify themselves as such at all.

    Some Catholics who call themselves "charismatic" are thought by other Catholics who call themselves "charismatic" as being definitely not charismatic at all.

    Some casual snarkers use the word "Charismatic" to describe LifeTeen, Medjugorie fangirls, any retreat with a Spanish name, and that skinny guy over in pew 5 who smiles way too much at Mass and carries a penny whistle in his pocket even though no one has ever heard him play it.



    Pentecostals - a wide ranging non-group of non-Catholic Christians (many of whom would not use the word 'Protestant' - use the word to mean anything from a mildly enthusiastic prayer style to completely guano-crazy such as snake-handling and poison-drinking. Most of those people would scoff at the notion that a group of middle-aged Catholic women having a prayer meeting in Room 7 of the Family Life Center qualifies as "charismatic."

    Talking about "Charismatics" in the abstract is pointless. You can only talk about "these people right here doing some particular thing."

    If you are interested in a socio-historical study of various charismatic movements, that is one thing. I'm sure that would be a fascinating study.

    But a non-grounded "Can you give me arguments against it? I'm eager to be convinced" is... well, I'm not sure what it is. But the OP is correct in his worry that he might come across as a troll by asking this question.

    Is there an actual Charismatic Prayer group at your own parish? If so, and you are curious, head on over to the Family Life Center on Thursday night and spend some time in Room 7. (You know, without arguing.) You might learn something.

    Is there a weird or creepy charismatic vibe infecting your home parish or diocese, perhaps related to some retreat center or "parish renewal" program? If so, and you are concerned, find out what is actually going on and bring up your concerns with your pastor or bishop.

    Are you looking for ammunition for arguing with your fellow Catholics who have a style of spirituality that you imagine is somehow degenerate? If so, I suggest you take Cardinal Arinze's advice for liturgists with too much time on their hands.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,696
    IMHO (speaking from decades of experience) there is a very fine line between "faith filled charismatics" and those who have gone off the deep end into diabolical territory. Tongues? Healing? ...these subjects can easily become distractions from the basics of religion, faith and morals... and the sacraments themselves... and of the Mass, which is the central element of our faith. Be very careful when "experience and/or emotion" becomes the barometer for whether or not you are 'feeling or actually ARE close to God'.

    Take the story of Job for instance... or perhaps, Jesus, Mary and Joseph on their flight to Egypt... and it wasn't on Delta!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,169
    Adam, while the word "charismatic" has various meanings in common usage, the term "Catholic charismatic movement" has a specific meaning, so fear not: even if you say you don't understand the conversation so far, some of us do.

    One can read about the movement

    from its international office in Rome;
    from Catholic World Report magazine;
    from EWTN's staff theologian;
    and even from Wikipedia.

  • There are always pitfalls and dangers in every movement within the church. What it boils down to is this: Is it a means or an ends?

    People in the Charismatic movement can end up in error when they over-emphasise the individual, personal, spirit-filled experiences. It can become a form of spiritual hedonism, where these experiences become the ends in of itself.

    People in the Traditionalist movement can also end up in error in a few different ways, but a particularly prevalent one is the cult of aestheticism, where the aesthetics of the mass (the vestments, ceremonies, chanting) can become the ends in itself, rather than it's proper place as a means towards God.

    There are lots of other places where errors can creep in despite the best of intentions. Many parishes have become so focussed on the gathering of people, that it is almost impossible to tell whether they are a church or a social club. Other churches place a very heavy emphasis on the preaching and catechises to the point that they feel like a college campus. There are also lots of small groups out there who seem to glamorise/romanticise the ideal of "poverty." All of these are aspects of Christianity, but an over-emphasis of any one of them will ultimately lead to error.

    It has been said that the definition of heresy is the emphasis of one true to the expense of other truths.

    Ultimately, one cannot pursue just one aspect of Christianity (take a look at where "Social Justice Christianity" has gone!) But these aspects are all complimentary and add up to a whole church.

    A true charismatic spirituality will not object to the norms of the church. One such charismatic was very open to me when I explained that we don't have jubilant music during lent because this is a season where we think about our sinfulness and pray for our interior conversion. This gives way to Easter which is joyful music about the resurrection of Christ. Much the same could be said for Advent to Christmas.
  • People in HartleyMartin's group are, ostensibly, never wrong?

    (Just having a bit of fun.)










































  • Good responses. While I have had friends involve themselves in this movement, I have noticed they are consumed and distracted to the point of becoming less effective in their ministries .
  • I also have friends in this movement who also seem totally consumed. The objective of evangelization is to open our hearts to new souls in the church. When we become so taken in with our own faith with little room to be open to others, then something is very wrong. Several years ago I wanted to join a prayer group with a very openly charismatic music ministry. They turned me down because I was not "experienced" enough in the movement "to be an asset to the group"
    my heart still aches over that.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,943
    I find hartleymartin's observations nail it down pretty accurately. The charismatics I know are mostly ignorant about liturgy and tradition, and are too self absorbed in their own feelings. I never said they are bad people, just too much off on a tangent.