Well, melo, I don't think it's news to anyone here that the name "Gregorian" is honorific and not fully historical. What next: will someone surprise us with the information that French fries aren't French?

> French fries aren't French

Whaaaat?!! My whole world is collapsing!

Well, 'Gregorian chant' is, at best, an honourary signifer for a category of chant which is quite minimally, if at all, 'Gregorian'. Of course, most of us here are aware of that. So, 'Gregorian chant', like 'English Gregorian chant', doesn't really exist. We do have Latin chant of Romano-Carolingian provenance, and we have English chant which might either be newly composed or be set to the ancient melodies. With regard to the latter, putting the old melodies to English is hardly breaking new ground: it's been previously ploughed with Chinese, Algonquin, and who knows what other languages. The notion that melodies conceived in unison with the Latin tongue cannot be artfully delivered in the English tongue is amusing to those who know better. In addition to Palmer-Burgess and Bruce Ford's American Gradual, we have more recent examples by none other than Fr Columba, all of which are sung beautifully by those who sing them with artful musicianship and INTEND for them to be beautiful.

Um, in what sense does Gregorian chant not exist?

I think one of the ways this discussion got out of hand is that perhaps not everyone knows that "ship of fools" is a mystery shopper website for worshippers.

Another way it got out of hand is probably that we're all in a holiday mood of preparing for Midnight Mass choir extravaganzas.

Another way it may have gotten out of hand is that people may not realize that Adam Bartlett has done a lot of composing since SEP, including works that matthewj, for one, is actively promoting here.

But, the other point, which should be taken seriously, is that every "bridge" to the Gregorian propers is meant to fall away in the end--eventually, at long last, when we've made the transition, however long that prudently takes, probably decades, with pastoral sensitivity--and we sing the authentic Gregorian chant.

Lol. No, they don't take credit cards. Somebody goes to a church and writes about the experience here http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/

P.S. You are very sweet. Thank you so much for your prayers last week, MaryAnn!

We have a very active Mystery Worshipper critic here in Phoenix who regularly attends and posts reviews of Catholic Masses (as well as services of other denominations).

Recently one musician from the Diocese of Phoenix called her out after she posted a review of a Confirmation Mass.

Her review:
http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/2013/2553.html

His response:
http://ship-of-fools.com/mystery/comments/2553.html

I won't comment on anything, but it is interesting to see. I wonder how many other churches have replied to these reviews/critiques.

But, the other point, which should be taken seriously, is that every "bridge" to the Gregorian propers is meant to fall away in the end--eventually, at long last, when we've made the transition, however long that prudently takes, probably decades, with pastoral sensitivity--and we sing the authentic Gregorian chant.

If it comforts you to believe that, I wish you peace and joy. I am afraid that the church visited by the mystery worshipper is more the norm. Yes, there will be the places that adopt "Gregorian" chant (and mine is one of them) but most will probably not. There is now a cultural divide between what once was, and what is and will likely be in Catholicism, and Vatican II is a footnote in history. I don't see Latin ever again being adopted as the worship language in most U.S. churches. As I said, there will be places, but they will not represent the majority. Those aren't bridges, they are replacements.

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Well, I don't claim to understand that, but let's not waste space on the thread about it.

The typical menu for my Sunday 'High Mass' includes a 'choral' Introit, either Willan or Rice; the Resp. Ps. of my own arrangement or from PBPs., or the Gradual from Arbogast, Plainchant Gradual or Grad. Rom.; the Alleluia from either the Liber Brevior, or Plainchant Gradual (occasionally with the full verse, but most often on a psalm-tone) or Tract on a Psalm-tone; the Offertory from either SEP or LCM/G; and the Communion from SEP, LCM/G or Grad. Rom. Very, very rarely, the Introit, Offertory or Communion is sung (in English) a la Rossini. The daily Mass is not much different.

I have used all of these, and continue to, and you will notice the preponderance of Vernacular plainchant. The Clergy, Quire, and Folk are not yet ready for the OF in LATIN - EF in LATIN they can handle - but their mindset is that the OF is NOT Latin with some Vernacular, its Vernacular with some Latin: this is the mindset that must be combatted if we want Sac. Conc. to be properly understood. We will have no hope at all in restoring the Graduale Romanum (or even promoting the Graduale Simplex) until people understand that the true native tongue of the OF is LATIN not the VERNACULAR.

As regards the various English adaptations of plainchant. They are just that, adaptations. And adaptations, no matter how serviceable they may be, are simply adaptations. They are not, to my mind, on a par with the Latin original, any more than an English adaptation of Palestrina's 'Sicut cervus' is on par with the original (or even English adaptations of Bach chorales, for that matter). It should also be noted that the principal collection of the FULL propers in English (Palmer-Burgess Plainchant Gradual, etc.) were NOT intended for use in the Latin Rite OF, a rite that claims Latin as its native tongue, they were intended for use with the BCP which claims English as its native tongue - they were not intended as a means to an end (as SEP is) but as an end in and of themselves.

I think people nodding and smiling and doing whatever they please is a constant. St. Pius X would never have written his 1903 encyclical if people were not already smiling and nodding and doing as they please.

Human weakness and disobedience doesn't negate the standard.

I wonder if there really is a "standard" today, in any legal sense. That standard became just an example when authority for liturgy was turned over to the conferences of bishops. Now, it is one possibility out of many - too many, I think.

The GIRM has enough exceptions to drive a large truck through. LOL. I believe you could read much of what you want into it. That certainly doesn't help matters any. Even the "Roman" Canon is not standard for the Roman Rite these days. My parish is about the only one in town that still uses it. We are not in Kansas anymore, I'm afraid. That wider Roman Church can be a little scary.

added note: A visiting priest recently wondered about congregational confusion when using Eucharistic Prayer IV. I told him we were used to EP I, only. He said disapprovingly, that was too bad since that was the most confusing theologically of the prayers. You know, I never found that prayer theologically confusing.

papal dicta will not be followed as it was in earlier times

Papal dicta will not be followed. This is exactly the same as it was in earlier times.

Fixed.

If you can manage the SEP and/or BFW, the Graduale Simplex isn't a big leap.

I wasn't alive in 1903 and so cannot say whether folks followed the papal dicta. However, I think that later writings demonstrate that there's never been much "good-soldier" obedience to decrees about sacred music, even back in the good ol' days of poorly celebrated EF.

Pius X wrote his schpeal because there was a noticeable amount of wrongness in liturgical music at the time.

Pius XII added his thoughts because people STILL WEREN'T GETTING IT.

VII made some clear statements (why would they need to, if folks were listening to previous dicta?). The musicians still didn't get on board. Reform? Free-for-all!

Paul VI gave us some clear direction and a minimum repertoire. IGNORED.

JPII reinforced everyone prior. IGNORED.

Benedict XVI says, Hey guys, seriously, this is not right. Lets do it they way WE SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING IT ALL ALONG AND HERE'S WHY. Ignored, and written off as a crazy old fundie.


The pattern of events / papcies / dicta seem to indicate that nobody was ever really paying attention to them, including (and especially!) Pius X. If our ancestors did what Pius X asked, I doubt the rest of these would have been necessary. It's not like things were going swell and VII opened the floodgates of rebellion. It just gave the deaf ears of individualist broadway wannabes a little more room to liturgically dance around.

If the decrees were followed in 1903, why would the church still be trying clarify to its musicians exactly what they should be doing?

I wish I could be as optimistic as some of you folks regarding the future. I am fortunate to be in one of those parishes where chant and traditional music are valued. No one else in town is like us, however. The "progressive" parishes have gone their own way and want nothing to do with us more traditional folks. We are frozen out of diocesan activities and have no input into diocesan music plans or practices. My predictions for the future are more along the lines of two separate churches with differing liturgies and music. I don't see any coming together, but more divergence - would love to be proven wrong on this one, but don't think it will happen. Only associating with and talking to like-minded individuals can really distort your perceptions as to the state of things, current or future.

Baby boomers and the "coffee house, hippie" generation are not open to change. Period. Start with the children and we have somewhere to go. Baby boomer priests are beginning to retire out in place of younger priests who are moving towards tradition. There is hope.

I don't disagree with you. The more traditional community is insulated and a bit inbred. It doesn't seem to be aware of what is happening out in the world away from its gated communities. SEP and other English chant collections are good stuff to me. I use them, without apology.

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MJM and the rest need to understand that the SEP still does have a use.

Yes. Clearly he does not understand that...

They are a wonderful product that can be used as a beginning point for beginner directors and beginner choirs singing chant at Holy Mass.

I did use the Simple English Propers... when needed

The Simple English Propers were a great place to start.

We need to realize that the SEP can be a tool that is useful in some cases

An area music leader told me that she considers the GR too difficult for her choir to ever sing. I know some have presented it as "standard," but I wouldn't invest the time in it for my choir to sing from it every week. We have other things to do.

I know how to do it, and have the academic degrees to back that knowledge up. I am in a parish that offers a TLM on Sunday afternoon for those interested, but only wants English NO masses Sunday mornings. The bulk of my work is in those 4 English masses. I read square notes, but the choir and cantors revolt when given them. Life is too short... I have more significant battles to fight than whether or not to use the GR. Most of my efforts have been toward singing traditional hymns - after cutting down the number of hymns to begin with - and singing anthems and the English Propers I have been able to introduce.

One more thought on your post Charles, is that my choir and pastor do not like nor read square notes either. We are not currently singing the GR. I do however take the square notes and convert them to stemless round notes. They are singing and liking Conditor Alme Siderum, Alma Redemptoris Mater, and others. After they are really comfortable with about 20 different chants in round notes I will re-introduce them to the world of square notes and I'll bet they will start to see how it all fits together and that it is actually quite simple.
I'll let you know how it all works out (next year, hopefully).