SEP accompaniment book
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    http://www.kickstarter.com/
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    We might be able to even put it on the cafe, if we need enough support. FANTASTIC idea, Richard.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    I have been unable to help as much as I would have liked to, but I would donate to this project.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Wow. Don't know what to say guys.
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    I'm happy to contribute to the fund. Just let me know when you get the appropriate donation page up and running. Perhaps it could be a pre-order page for the completed book.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    ^ Excellent idea.
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Ryan, how much do you actually need? And how long will it take you to finish the book once you have the necessary software?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I'm looking at some options around 5-700. A bit unsure how much power I'd need to run the program without overworking the computer. Sibelius can be a little labor-intensive. At least it was on my old machine. Maybe I can share what I'm looking at with some of the tech wizards here.

    Regarding software, chonak had suggested Sibelius First, but that doesn't do early music barlines. The demo version of Sibelius 7 is fully functional for 30 days, and that's more than enough time to finish - I just need to set aside that time to focus on this.

    (The above may seem misleading so I'd like to clarify that I access the forum from a tablet. If I had a computer I'd be using the demo right now!)
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Ryan, why not take up Ben's suggestion and try kickstarter or some such and I'm sure you would have the required funds in no time.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I'm looking into it right now. Also at publishing options. I've contacted Jeffrey Tucker about it going through CMAA but there needs to be a substantial selling potential to do that. I might also self-publish through Lulu.

    In either case, it raises interesting questions - printing cost vs. market cost being a big one. I'm thinking that donations over a certain dollar amount get the book at cost ... or should they be free after a certain amount ... or does a certain amount qualify for multiple books at cost or free (but then would anyone be ordering more than 1 or 2 of these? Doubtful).

    SUPER IMPORTANT is how the book will be bound. I am leaning toward spiral, so it stays open easily on the music stand. Spiral binding has a threat of pages coming loose though. Oh, and what size paper???

    I'd like to hear opinions on the binding, as well as how the fundraising/pre-order ought to be organized.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Spiral seems wise to me as well.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    What do you think about paper size?
  • awilliamsawilliams
    Posts: 101
    Letter paper and spiral bound definitely.
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Lulu seems pricey and they don't spiral bind as many pages as this will be (around 650, because of the layout). I found this website www.thebookpatch.com which is cheaper and they can spiral bind up to 700 pages.

    Would something like 6x9 be too small? That's HALF the printing cost of doing letter size pages. There are some other in-between sizes but they're pricey (probably because of the oddity of their use).

    At 6x9 500-999 copies are $12.79. Over a thousand and they are $11.94. I don't know how many hard copies this would sell, so I won't count on the 1,000 mark. If it is printed in letter size, we're looking at $29.63 between 500-999, and $27.65 over a thousand.

    Is 6x9 too small? That's a bit larger than my tablet screen, which I've used to read these at mass ... but I have young(ish) eyes.


    Please weigh in on the size issue.
    Also, any other publishing sites to check out?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    500 copies, spiral bound, B&W print (aside from cover)

    @ 8.5x11 = $14,812.50

    @ 6x9 = $10,583.63

    Shipping not included. :-p
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Could you do both sizes easily? If you can, the option might be nice.

    You might also consider doing two volumes if it'll be large. It's not like a hymnal where you need to jump around. You could use a single volume for several months, so it wouldn't be difficult to switch between the volumes, but it will make them more manageable. Just a thought.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    If its split to roughly 350 pages per volume, we're looking at printing costs, for both volumes, of $22 total at 6x9, or $31 total with 8.5x11 ... So that does add significantly to the cost.

    Both sizes is an option, I suppose, but it would be good to have a rough estimate of how many in each size will be ordered, to take advantage of bulk pricing.

    What I may do, upon completion of the PDF, is order single copies of both sizes in order to see the physical product, and then offer the option to purchase based on those. Seeing the fat 650-pager may warrant splitting into volumes... Don't know until I see it though.
    (It does make me recall the 3-volume Gather accompaniment books at my childhood parish. 300-something each, and those were pretty thick.)


    Also, I need help to estimate total cost for the kickstarter campaign. I did set up an account, but its a question of -how much- to set as the fundraising goal. Should it be the cost of equipment (laptop) to finish, or be set up as a pre-order / printing fund for the cost of the overall printing (however many copies might be sold)?


  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    If you're doing print and warehouse (instead of on demand with Lulu or something), I'd for sure do it all at once in one big campaign to cover printing, as long as it isn't huge. How much do you expect that will be? That's the real question.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I have no idea, and that's why I'm asking. It really depends on how many hard copies would actually be sold.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    I would purchase 5
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    I would also purchase 5 copies in addition to contributing to kickstarter to get you going. You might also want to contact ccwatershed and see what they suggest and also Adam Bartlett. Let us know when the donations page goes live.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Edited:

    The maximum kickstarter goal is 10k. Or maybe I'm misunderstanding the "reward tier" ... anyway ... This would fund about 500 copies. However, if the goal is not met, (I think) that no funds are received. Does 10k seem high? Should we set it lower? They allow the goal to be exceeded, so if its set at, say 5k but the actual funds raised are 7k, that does all go toward the project (minus 5% in fees)

    And what I am thinking about pre-orders is that donations in multiples of, say 25 or 30 dollars, whatever the sale cost will be, get that many books. Maybe free shipping, if i can work that out somehow. So say the book is set at 25, you donate 100 upfront and you'll get 4 books once its printed. If you only want one, but want to donate 300 dollars, that is also acceptable. :-) And maybe smaller donations of 10 bucks or more can order the book at cost once its in print.

    Share your thoughts!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    I think you'd be better off to simplify things by keeping the processes separate:

    To complete the book draft and prep it for publication:
    -- a computer
    -- software (Sibelius)
    -- backup service
    -- graphic artist work (cover art, table of contents, page numbering, indexes)
    Estimate: $2000

    These could be requested through crowdfunding: donations would be personal to ryand, not tax-deductible.

    Then the printing and distribution can be left to a print-on-demand company. The number of individual donations that come in would give some indication of the number of customers. Maybe you could survey the donors (you will have their addresses) to ask how many copies they would like to obtain.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I'm not sure kickstarter allows for that though. Their rules indicate that there needs to be a "product" at the end of it.

    I guess the goal could be set low like that, and some discount applied for donors at the time of purchase? The thing is, if we go over the goal, and I were putting the money toward the initial batch, then it serves to continue raising / pre-ordering beyond the initial amount.


    Ben?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I have contacted Tucker, Bartlett, and Ostrowski about printing through their companies.

    Tucker says we need a projected sales goal of at least 20k to do it through CMAA
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/chancebarnett/2013/05/08/top-10-crowdfunding-sites-for-fundraising/
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    How's this look?

    http://www.indiegogo.com/project/preview/3ff4f69b

    It's possible to make it more complicated and add a big schpeal, but I'm pretty sure any contributions are going to come from folks who already know what's up.
    Thanked by 1chonak
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    Will they transfer funds to you as they arrive? That would help you get started faster. Maybe you can get a cost estimate about the book layout work and refine the budget. Mary Walker has done that type of work for CMAA, for example.
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Ryan, do you have a paypal account? Perhaps we could start the initial donations that way to get you going with the computer and software.
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Indiegogo seems fine. When will be it be active?
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    I don't think it pays out until the end of the fundraiser.
    What about a 1k computer fundraiser for a couple weeks, and depending on what formatting assistance is needed and that cost, we can do another one for that later?

    And with indiegogo, unlike kickstarter, funds are dispersed no matter what is raised. There's a higher fee if the goal isn't reached, but the money raised will still be dispersed.

    2 weeks, $1k. Sound doable?
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Ryan, just remember you are doing this just before Christmas. It could work both ways, some will be in a giving mood however some will want save their pennies for family gifts and shipping costs.
    Personally I can only donate $50 for this portion of the project.
    I will only purchase one book upon completion, but will encourage others to buy as well.
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Ryan, what about putting the finished material up as you have been doing (on a separate site?) but make it locked so that those who want the music must pay? For example, $10 for the Introits, $10 for the Offertory and $10 for the Communion chants. We could try the indiegogo for the $1k to get your computer and software. See if that gives you a better idea of how many people are interested and if that gives you enough to publish the book later on lulu or something similar.
  • StephenColbert
    Posts: 16
    Comment deleted.
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    How about getting pre-orders? I'd buy at least two copies.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    hartleymartin,
    The fundraiser is not set up for pre-order, but I do hope to offer some sort of discount to contributors. That will depend on how its published. Right now it seems like the self-publish route might be best. Illuminare and CCWatershed are not options at this point, and CMAA would require a pretty substantial sales figure.

    In any case, I do intend to offer some sort of perk to those who contributed. What that is, I don't know yet. We're not at that stage. For now, just do know that donations are not taken for granted!

    ---

    And in case anyone reading this has not seen it yet, the indiegogo page is UP & RUNNING. Find it here:
    http://www.indiegogo.com/projects/materials-for-completion-of-sep-organ-book/x/5561169
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,160
    A graphic with the current status of the campaign is in the right column on the main forum page.
    [UPDATE: was; now that the campaign is complete, I've taken the graphic down.]
    Thanked by 2ryand Adam Wood
  • lynnm
    Posts: 50
    Congrats! Ryan - you've made your target! Keep us updated on your progress.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    UPDATE:
    All antiphons, music and text, have been input, and the verse progressions are set up next to each. Basslines have been input on everything, which then allows an easy copy/paste method to make the alto and tenor input easier (the rhythms are already set up).


    QUESTION:
    Would it be preferred to include ties for similar notes? Examples are attached. I see benefits to either.
    No Tie Example.jpg
    659 x 315 - 76K
    Tie Example.jpg
    655 x 309 - 78K
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    For my eyes, the ties make things easier to read.
  • donr
    Posts: 971
    Ties
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    These ties, but not bowties. ;-)
  • nun_34nun_34
    Posts: 66
    I agree. Ties please, and thank you!
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Include the ties! :)
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Ties it is.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,151
    >●< ►○◄ are to be preferred.
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Update:
    All antiphons and complete harmonies are notated.
    All antiphons are labelled according to their date and proper.

    To do list:
    -Ties
    -Editing shaping of ties & slurs
    -Editing spacing of staves
    -Special text and notations
    -Copying/pasting antiphons which occur multiple times
    -Verse texts
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,296
    Can't wait!
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    Judge nothing else about the formatting (remember I haven't touched this yet other than note input) ... but look at those slurs! These aren't even the worst examples.

    For all the amazingly intuitive stuff these notations programs can do, sometimes the output is just ... weird.

    Of course it can all be edited. Just takes some time. And coffee.
    slurs.jpg
    663 x 426 - 102K
  • ryandryand
    Posts: 1,640
    aaaaand parallel octaves during the last line. Note to self: revoice that.

    wooh.
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