Go from another direction. What hymnal do you have?

PaixAmor,

I would be very interested in reading that NPM article on praise and worthy music. Do you have a copy of it?

NPM ... the very very mainatream "big tent" Catholic musician's organization had a whole issue of their journal a few years ago about why praise and worship music is not appropriate for mass. I'd start there.

Oooo! In which journal? I get the quarterly, but not their other one.

I avoid most Praise & Worship at all costs, so I'm not sure that would be effective. The closest I come is Haugen/Haas. I TRIED P&W two years ago and it DIDN'T WORK.

Although you can work from legislation, I wouldn't.

Normally, I would agree, but he has asked me to. Are you saying it would be more beneficial to continue to get them see what P&W music lacks?

I thought that "Song and Spirit" was the OCP book with the most P&W.

If you need to look for something official, perhaps someone can provide a quote about keeping secular-sounding music styles out of the liturgy. Such directives were aimed at operatic music, but they would apply here too.

I think S&S is redundant, a marvel of repackaging and marketing.

I am in charge of selecting the music for one Mass where my son plays the organ. We have OCP's Music Issue and seasonal missals. I do not select P&W stuff--ever. There is enough to choose from that we don't have to be overly repetitious. So far (now in my 3rd year), I have never been told what songs to choose (the P&W crowd gets what they want on Saturday evenings with either LifeTeen or somebody programming the synthesizer with their favs)--but the day that happens (i.e., I'm told we'll play P&W music), if it does, we are gone.

Kathy

exactly how broad a range does alius cantus aptus include?)

Chris, reference Kathy's thread over at the Cafe re. the "Dylan Mass." (Actually quite well done.) But the point being- to whom via our music are we referencing our musical efforts? Christ's Church, His Body, ergo "Us" without the narcicism. Therefore, we have to bespeak and be-sing our rites in some manner and discipline that in no way defaults to the mundane and profane.

For what it's worth:

... those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.
Musicam Sacram, 1967, Instruction on Music in the Liturgy

I think it would be reasonable to apply this to consider the following instruments as suitable for secular music only and therefore not accepted in the liturgy: (1) drum set; (2) electric bass; (3) electric guitar.

But this only addresses the question of instruments, not styles.

I can't remember the name of the document (hopefully someone reading this will provide it for you), but there is a writing by Pius XII which makes clear distinction between "religious/devotional" and "sacred/liturgical" music.

The best part of the article (especially for this situation) is that he takes no qualms with religious/devotional styles, and actually encourages their use ... at the proper time and place.

If you can emphasize this point - that there is nothing inherently wrong with the music, and what a great thing to listen to P&W if it helps your devotions or if it keeps your mind on God while driving around or whatever use you might have for it - but it is not designed for the liturgy. More accurately, the liturgy is not designed for P&W. (Some composers might argue that they did design it for the liturgy, but that's like saying I designed a new tire tread design which will keep your guitar's tuning more stable).

Other quotes, like pride of place and all that, might not help much. If you use such sources, I'd promote the appropriate music, but by Pius XII's example also note the benefits of other music (in other places).

It's not about promoting the good or the bad ... Those are polarizing terms, and inaccurate. It's about promoting what is suitable to the situation. P&W has its benefits and its appropriate venues, as do chant and polyphony.

^ HAHAHA

The church nowhere FORBIDS P+W music - how would that even be possible, given how difficult it is to decide what falls into that category?

So, I think the question has to be framed in a positive way. What music does the Church recommend and point us towards? There you can find a wealth of information, and you don't have to go back to 1903. I wonder if your pastor is baiting you a bit, or if he is genuinely interested in exploring what the Church has to say. If the former, he may know very well that P+W is not forbidden, and that is his way out of arguing with you. It's a bit like me baiting a parishioner by saying "tell me where Latin is forbidden in the documents" knowing that they can't support their idea. Personally, I would ask the pastor, frankly, if he is receptive to the idea of exploring the documents together (in other words, if that is what her really means). Maybe even set up some meeting times for that purpose - it could be a great thing on both a musical and personal level for the two of you. If he's baiting you, then start the conversation by admitting frankly that the church doesn't forbid that music anywhere. Then go for the positive avenue.

I had a pastor who forbade me to use Latin, but also forbade any P+W groups in the parish. He was strongly dedicated to being middle-of-the-road. :)
His rationale for not allowing P+W (by which he meant praise bands) was that a band situation is more performance based than participatory. In addition, music for praise bands tends to be in its own genre, from its own books, and not known well by the general congregation. So both the performance style and the repertoire struck him as being non-participatory and distracting to the liturgy. Interestingly, then, he disliked P+W for the same reason he would dislike a choral-orchestral setting in the Mass. But I have to give him credit for forbidding the P+W for a good reason. Those arguments may also help with your pastor.

Just on a side note, toward the end of my stay at that job (as I completed my doctorate) I raised an archdiocesan choir and performed the Durufle Requiem with organ and strings, during the All Souls' Mass at that parish! With his blessing (looking back I have no idea how that got OK'd - maybe the Holy Spirit at work). Afterwards he came up to me, clearly moved by the experience, and said "wow - you can have strings here and do this music any time you want." Sadly, that little mountain-top moment and personal interaction did not lead anywhere in the parish's future and I moved on.

Anyway, frame the discussion as an aiming for the good, the true, and the beautiful, rather than a legalistic search for forbidden music. You may have to sneak the best music in over time, into the parish's consciousness, by way of concerts and special guest artists. And let them come to you ("could we ever do any of that at Mass?" and you respond, as if it never occurred to you "well, I don't know - maybe").

Rescued from the jaws of defeat by Andrew Malton (so blame him).

The Church expects pastors and bishops to use common sense

and I thought I was the funny one around here...

Speaking of the ban on percussion instruments, what is the deal with this?

Canonical exceptions for this ever since they let snare drums be altar servers.

Oh, you should see B16 in Germany: at some Mass, the musicians started playing smooth-jazz during the offertory, with, I think, a soprano sax as the lead instrument. The papal displeasure was obvious.

I always thought "Praise & Worship" music was an interesting description. What are we doing the rest of the time?

Oh, you should see B16 in Germany: at some Mass, the musicians started playing smooth-jazz during the offertory, with, I think, a soprano sax as the lead instrument. The papal displeasure was obvious.

IIRC, RC, it was worse as it was during the Penitential Rite. And it was bogus in that way that only German Catholics can manage. (see, I actually think jazz is a classical genre.)

Chonak, I actually just read that article today.
ghmus7, you actually make a good point and our part time Parochial Vicar actually made that point out of genuine confusion. I clarified that P&W among sacred music aficionados has more or less come to be known as a genre of music.

Of course the Church would not write a document to forbid P&W music, or any other pop-music trend that comes along. The Church expects pastors and bishops to use common sense and know that styles that imitate entertainment music don't belong at Mass. In a similar way, there really is no need for a document to expressly forbid polka Masses.

But I can hear the rejoinder already: "What is this 'common sense' you speak of?"

Exactly. This is the "please don't eat the daisies" or "monkeys in the sanctuary" approach to liturgy.

bkenny27. I just read in "Gregorian Chant" by Rev Andrew Klarmann page 143...
2. 404. "The use of piano is forbidden in churches as also that of all noisy or irreverent instruments such as drums, kettledrums, cymbals, triangles, etc." (A).

A. being taken supposedly from "Motu Proprio of Pius X, issued November 22, 1903.

You will not have a good time with this one because most will say that it is not 1903 anymore and newer docs do allow them but I believe that is the reference you were looking for.

Percussion is licit if you pastor says it is.
Ours does not allow percussion but does allow guitar, bass and piano. He prefers the Organ.

On the Bachcantatas forum there have been reminiscences of tympani and trumpets playing outside an open door of the stricter American luthereran churches. I balk at calling it a commonsense solution...

THANK YOU. So, just because it's not 1903 doesn't mean the document is nullified. Riiiight? What documents allow it? Were they simply written ignorant of the prohibition or in opposition to it?

Regarding musical instruments, the General Instruction of the Roman Missal states at #393:

While the organ is to be accorded pride of place, other wind, stringed, or percussion instruments may be admitted into divine worship in the United States of America, according to longstanding local usage, in so far as these are truly suitable for sacred use, or can be made suitable.