Oh, CharlesW, that's silly. (though I'm all for maintaining whatever harmony existed without the filioque and direction of the crossing oneself)

The direction of the sign of the cross is not as profound a change as praise and worship musi. Protestantism was an overencompassing radical departure in so many more ways.

Innovation is a time-honored Latin practice.

Maybe in your neck of the woods... we value tradition here. Things that stay the same like... the Eucharist... confession... oh and of course, Gregorian Chant!

For the most part, eastern liturgies have stayed pretty much the same for 1600 years. Not so in the west. The Latins seem to have a gift for creating innovations. Granted, many are minor, but that tendency to tinker with things has been there for many centuries.

Confession has changed in the west, while the Eucharist is the same but only administered under one form, which easterners find odd and non-traditional. I have heard that bread-only communion, is from Trent, but haven't read anything authoritative on that. Your Gregorian chant, while beautiful, is more 19th century French than Gregorian.

HM, I still haven't heard "Shout to the Lord." Maybe I should be grateful, ya think?

And all those things you have mentioned are reasons why Vatican II called for liturgical reform.

Yep! That's it exactly.

Except the type of reform called for the Second Vatican Council was not the same one which occurred, replete with touchy feely hand holding.....and as I mentioned before, rather the most yucky music which Church's composers have manufactured, which built upon absolutely nothing which came before it, and shall I mention, was influenced by certain secular trends which in turn were sometimes (not always, lest anyone should complain) influenced by the use of mind altering substances. Where do we go from there?

In my view, many of the Catholic churches in the US teeter on the edge of being heretical.

...and Our Lady of Fatima warned us about the time we are in, so she is thinking similar things. (sorry Fr. Ron... not speaking for the BVM... she has spoken for herself)

For CharlesW:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUjrUOdr1y0

This much I can tell you Charles, the Western Rite Orthodox Churches that retain the "pre-schism" sign of the cross, all the Orthodox theology and recently invented anti-augustine retoric are not growing when they retain praise and worship type music. Those types of churches are stagnant or shrinking.

I once had the misfortune of attending an Antiochian Western Rite Church that played a southern gospel hymn on the piano and had great anti-pathy toward chant or polyphony, so much so that local anglo-catholics were repelled by it. (Western rite orthodox churches vary immensely.) (There was no animosity in the Orthodox Church historically, this is a recent liberal trend amongst certain Orthodox theologians which infects only the more ignorant lay people.)

I remember talking to the presbytera of the dean of a certain Greek Orthodox Cathedral and she conceded that when she has traveled to territories of the world where there is no Orthodox Church available and is not with her husband, she intentionally seeks out a traditional latin mass as the next best thing rather than have no divine liturgy at all.

This I say as someone who almost became Orthodox and still loves the Orthodox very much, besides of course the Melkites and roman communion counterpart.

The average Orthodox person places the traditional rubrics and theology of the words of the liturgy at a level equal to the music therein.

Innovation in liturgy is innovation in the faith we believe - innovation can also include the music used.

Yes, I share the view of pews being an unfortunate development, rather than exception for the infirm , sick or elderly.

I still complain to my family that the men and women don't stand on separate sides of the temple in hardly anywhere....

As. Dr. Tighe said to me, I'd be happy in the middle ages, as long as I had a dentist...
Sometimes I think a shorter lifespan and more suffering from poor health would be a worthy price to pay for more healthy church and liturgy. Over in rural Guatemala (a half a million recently became Orthodox) it's much easier to pull off these traditional practices, a land where the middle ages and feudalism never ended. If they could only stop having wars and narcotics smuggling I'd be tempted to move there...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIODLdz6vEc

This is a video of what was once a regular 15th c. Mass.

The Melkites are Arab Christians and in some ways, their liturgies differ a bit from some other eastern churches. They are certainly the largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches. When my own Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish started, the Greek Orthodox gave us vestments and other religious items. The Greeks said they loved their liturgy and wanted to see it spread and prosper. They realized we were united by liturgy if not by language and country of origin. In this southern city, we also have a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church that I mentioned, and an Orthodox Church in America parish a few miles away.

Not offended. As I mentioned earlier, we have our crazies, too. Fortunately, we do have a couple of orthodox bishops who lean heavily toward eastern practice. It's getting better.

In the old country, Melkites and their Orthodox counterparts practice de facto intercommunion, or so I'm told: it's said to be common in mixed marriages.

Sometimes you have to use what you have available. At our church we have a Roland RM700 which is capable of producing an organ tone, supposedly sampled from some of the most famous cathedral organs in Europe. However, you would not put an organ of that size in a church that small: our little mission church only holds about 100 people maximum. If we had a small positif or something, it would work in there, but in absence of something appropriately sized, I will use the piano, especially in that small church, where it seems to work well. That's not to say, of course like many on this forum, that I would not prefer a small positif over the pinaner, but without it, the piano works the best.

At a used book store in Austin, I ran across a "hymnal" of an Orthodox Church in the U.S. (Greek, I think - but I could be wrong.) I was so excited to find it, until I opened it up:
-Text only.
-Folk, P&W, Gospel, and campfire songs.

Looked like something that would be handed out at a Cursillo.

Very disappointing.

Nicely done.

On another note, when I asked my middle schoolers to explain the differences between today's contemporary music and Gregorian chant one student raised her hand and answered "today's music is fun and Gregorian chant is more about God". Enough said.

I can guarantee that your student does think it's beautiful. I had my students do a poster on a Baroque composer and most chose Vivaldi. They had the opportunity of presenting their poster to the class and give an impression of what they thought about his music. Most, again, chose "The Four Seasons". They only had to listen to one movement, but all chose to listen to them all saying "it wasn't all that bad and I think I liked it". The presentations were for extra credit and, when the opportunity for the EC was made, the truth about the music came out. And nobody laughed!

As always, Michelle, your writings on these issues reflect a sense of logic, understanding, and love for that which is Sacred and Holy. One could only wish that your thoughts and arguments might be more widely disseminated. Thank you, and bless you.

Just want to give the filioque a big shout out. LOVE the filioque! And it's true besides. Can I get a woot?

I will create another thread to address this properly