Praise & Worship Music
  • Oh, CharlesW, that's silly. (though I'm all for maintaining whatever harmony existed without the filioque and direction of the crossing oneself)

    The direction of the sign of the cross is not as profound a change as praise and worship musi. Protestantism was an overencompassing radical departure in so many more ways.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    Actually, Gallican influences were pretty disruptive to the old Roman liturgy. Poor old Arius mostly disrupted doctrine. Protestantism is a later disruption to both.

    Nothing silly about it. As an eastern Christian, I can assure you that the change in the sign of the cross is still discussed in the east, and not favorably, along with filioque and Augustine, neither of which get much favorable mention either. Don't even go there discussing purgatory, or you may not get out intact and unharmed. LOL.

    Was it filioque and mangled sign of the cross in ancient Church? It was not! Is both outrage and heresy. ;-)
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,012
    Innovation is a time-honored Latin practice.


    Maybe in your neck of the woods... we value tradition here. Things that stay the same like... the Eucharist... confession... oh and of course, Gregorian Chant!
  • Ended up doing shout to the lord on the electric piano because the score was 6 pages long and the organ's music desk could only accommodate 3. It was sung as a "reflection" after communion.

    I consider it no small victory to get "All People that on Earth do Dwell" played as the entrance hymn (not a Christ the King hymn as such, but at least something traditional) and there was a very encouraging level of congregational singing. Evem the Parish Priest sang it as he processed in!

    Hopefully one more nail in the coffin for "Gather Us In."
    Thanked by 2bkenney27 Ben Yanke
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    For the most part, eastern liturgies have stayed pretty much the same for 1600 years. Not so in the west. The Latins seem to have a gift for creating innovations. Granted, many are minor, but that tendency to tinker with things has been there for many centuries.

    Confession has changed in the west, while the Eucharist is the same but only administered under one form, which easterners find odd and non-traditional. I have heard that bread-only communion, is from Trent, but haven't read anything authoritative on that. Your Gregorian chant, while beautiful, is more 19th century French than Gregorian.

    HM, I still haven't heard "Shout to the Lord." Maybe I should be grateful, ya think?
  • And all those things you have mentioned are reasons why Vatican II called for liturgical reform.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    And all those things you have mentioned are reasons why Vatican II called for liturgical reform.


    Yep! That's it exactly.
  • "Shout to the Lord" isn't a bad song, but I feel uncomfortable about it's Liturgical use.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Except the type of reform called for the Second Vatican Council was not the same one which occurred, replete with touchy feely hand holding.....and as I mentioned before, rather the most yucky music which Church's composers have manufactured, which built upon absolutely nothing which came before it, and shall I mention, was influenced by certain secular trends which in turn were sometimes (not always, lest anyone should complain) influenced by the use of mind altering substances. Where do we go from there?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    Except the type of reform called for the Second Vatican Council was not the same one which occurred...


    I completely agree. What came out of the Council did not look much like what happened later in the U.S. With the revisions of Paul VI, things really went crazy afterwards.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,012
    In my view, many of the Catholic churches in the US teeter on the edge of being heretical.

    ...and Our Lady of Fatima warned us about the time we are in, so she is thinking similar things. (sorry Fr. Ron... not speaking for the BVM... she has spoken for herself)
    Thanked by 2Blaise Chris_McAvoy
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    I remember the Pius X group maintained that the 1960 date and warnings of calamity related to the loss of faith cause by Vatican II. Interesting. Those Marian messages and apparitions don't come with much of an explanation, so it's sometimes hard to figure out exactly what they mean. But it's true you don't need apparitions to see some really misguided practices in some U.S. churches.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    Thanks. It would be ok for a youth camp, prayer service or other devotions. But I don't think I will program that for mass anytime soon - or later. LOL.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • This much I can tell you Charles, the Western Rite Orthodox Churches that retain the "pre-schism" sign of the cross, all the Orthodox theology and recently invented anti-augustine retoric are not growing when they retain praise and worship type music. Those types of churches are stagnant or shrinking.

    I once had the misfortune of attending an Antiochian Western Rite Church that played a southern gospel hymn on the piano and had great anti-pathy toward chant or polyphony, so much so that local anglo-catholics were repelled by it. (Western rite orthodox churches vary immensely.) (There was no animosity in the Orthodox Church historically, this is a recent liberal trend amongst certain Orthodox theologians which infects only the more ignorant lay people.)

    I remember talking to the presbytera of the dean of a certain Greek Orthodox Cathedral and she conceded that when she has traveled to territories of the world where there is no Orthodox Church available and is not with her husband, she intentionally seeks out a traditional latin mass as the next best thing rather than have no divine liturgy at all.

    This I say as someone who almost became Orthodox and still loves the Orthodox very much, besides of course the Melkites and roman communion counterpart.

    The average Orthodox person places the traditional rubrics and theology of the words of the liturgy at a level equal to the music therein.

    Innovation in liturgy is innovation in the faith we believe - innovation can also include the music used.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    I am not Orthodox, but eastern Catholic. As an eastern Christian, I was taught that Tradition is a gift from the Holy Spirit and that Tradition must live in the hearts of all believers. You will find nuts who don't accept that in every church and in every place. There are abuses in eastern churches, too, and abuses can range all the way from music to pews - yes, pews. They are considered an abuse in much of the east. I have been encouraged by recent popes telling eastern Catholics to be more eastern in liturgy and practice. The Latin Church is always the 800-pound gorilla in the room, since it outnumbers us in the west. In the true geographic east, its effects are diminished. Secularism is a bigger threat.
  • Yes, I share the view of pews being an unfortunate development, rather than exception for the infirm , sick or elderly.

    I still complain to my family that the men and women don't stand on separate sides of the temple in hardly anywhere....

    As. Dr. Tighe said to me, I'd be happy in the middle ages, as long as I had a dentist...
    Sometimes I think a shorter lifespan and more suffering from poor health would be a worthy price to pay for more healthy church and liturgy. Over in rural Guatemala (a half a million recently became Orthodox) it's much easier to pull off these traditional practices, a land where the middle ages and feudalism never ended. If they could only stop having wars and narcotics smuggling I'd be tempted to move there...


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIODLdz6vEc

    This is a video of what was once a regular 15th c. Mass.
    Thanked by 1bkenney27
  • Charles I knew you were not Orthodox. But Eastern Catholics are always sympathetic to the Orthodox I thought. (Vatican II told them to be right? how could they refuse?) I mean they often use the same text books , why wouldnt they be? That's my experience with Melkite's at least....It seems good to me.

    If the Melkites weren't so influenced by the Orthodox, I wouldn't have almost become Orthodox! It all seemed so similar....it was a slippery slope. At the time, in my naivete, I thought loyalty to the Pope was something I might be able to overcome... seeing as the Church in communion with him seemed to be a in a bigger crisis than the one not with him. I almost became another Rob Dreher. Yet because of this I view and think from a lens similar to Dreher's, except from within Roman Communion instead of outside it. I decided I could do more good for the Church from within it instead of outside of it. Also I didnt want to risk my eternal salvation... at the time I figured certain poorly run RCIA programs gave enough risk to the faithful attaining salvation that the Orthodox Church might be a necessary schismatic evil.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    The Melkites are Arab Christians and in some ways, their liturgies differ a bit from some other eastern churches. They are certainly the largest of the Eastern Catholic Churches. When my own Byzantine Catholic Church in America parish started, the Greek Orthodox gave us vestments and other religious items. The Greeks said they loved their liturgy and wanted to see it spread and prosper. They realized we were united by liturgy if not by language and country of origin. In this southern city, we also have a Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Greek Orthodox Church that I mentioned, and an Orthodox Church in America parish a few miles away.
  • The Melkites and Arabs generally are also especially conservative in nature, compared to the Rusyns. No gender neutral language for them! The one nutty melkite cathedral in venuezuela that faces the people and is heavily modernized/latinized is looked upon with disdain from the 99% majority.

    While they are still better off liturgically and in beauty than most latin rite churches, the Rusyns church in the USA leaves much to be desired from myself, especially in it's most recent bishops in the USA. Melkites and Ukrainians have been less inclined to follow the trendy latin experiments that have served to weaken the latins faith.I wish that I could give the Rusyns their own country to give them more self confidence.

    I pray that that statement does not offend you and I dont want to speak for everyone, once again it's probably a matter of the mindset of the particular bishops too.

    I am glad to see some healthy respect and friendly behavior between the local greek Orthodox and Rusyn Byzantine Catholics. I have witnessed this in Pennsylvannia too. The local GOA church always sad the Byz. Cath one had better iconography and they would attend each others food festivals/fundraisers on occasion. Though they would rarely actually pray together or become extra cozy the way many "ecumenical" western christians do.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    Not offended. As I mentioned earlier, we have our crazies, too. Fortunately, we do have a couple of orthodox bishops who lean heavily toward eastern practice. It's getting better.
  • Yeah, what was an issue in the Melkite CHurch was one of their deacons, well this happned in a Ukrainian one as well - they told me "Hey I have a right to receive the Eucharist in an Orthodox Church when I'm on vacation and I think they are bad for refusing it to me."

    Good grief... I guess if you were a Catholic/Orthodox intermarried that might come up as a temptation, but otherwise I dont quite understand that concept. Thats what I call crazy!!
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,387
    In the old country, Melkites and their Orthodox counterparts practice de facto intercommunion, or so I'm told: it's said to be common in mixed marriages.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    It is common in some parts of the world. While officially frowned upon, at the local level conditions may warrant it. We have a word for that.

    In this sense "economia" means, "handling", "management", "disposition".
    In general then, "economia" refers to pastoral handling or discretion or management in a
    neutral sense. But it also can take two specific forms: it can be "exact" ("precise", "strict"), which means the usual or general rule is followed precisely; or it can be "lenient" (a loosening or modification of that usual or general rule). The former is called "economia according to strictness (exactness)" and the latter, "economia according to leniency." Economia according to leniency — a modification in the application of the usual rule — has always been done when, in the judgment of the Church, guided by the Holy Spirit (cf. Acts 15:28, "it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us") this would result in the wider salvation of souls through the extension of God's mercy.
  • Sometimes you have to use what you have available. At our church we have a Roland RM700 which is capable of producing an organ tone, supposedly sampled from some of the most famous cathedral organs in Europe. However, you would not put an organ of that size in a church that small: our little mission church only holds about 100 people maximum. If we had a small positif or something, it would work in there, but in absence of something appropriately sized, I will use the piano, especially in that small church, where it seems to work well. That's not to say, of course like many on this forum, that I would not prefer a small positif over the pinaner, but without it, the piano works the best.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Speaking of the Western Rite Orthodox (re: Chris McAvoy), I was listening to them yesterday on YouTube (parts of the Divine Liturgy-there was one complete Pascha service posted, including the pre-Mass banter among the faithful :) ). I was actually wondering how traditional they would look: whether it would be like the Anglican Use Mass I attend or the Sarum Use, etc. So far I have not been disappointed. But I am surprised that you found one with southern gospel music, considering that the Orthodox liturgy, at least the Byzantine rite, is sung through, and I would expect the Western Rite to be similar. I most certainly don't expect the Orthodox of any rite to be anti-chant. But it seems that you have experience with them.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,390
    At a used book store in Austin, I ran across a "hymnal" of an Orthodox Church in the U.S. (Greek, I think - but I could be wrong.) I was so excited to find it, until I opened it up:
    -Text only.
    -Folk, P&W, Gospel, and campfire songs.

    Looked like something that would be handed out at a Cursillo.

    Very disappointing.
  • I wade cautiously into this frey as I have had my own sad experiences with OCP's Spirit and Song. This is what I have written on my blog:

    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2013/11/shadows-and-fog.html

    To which OCP responded (I emailed them the text of my comments):

    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2013/11/no-reply-at-all.html

    And here is my reply:
    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2013/11/and-debate-continues.html

    Lamentably, this whole thing reminds me of a bad South Park episode wherein Cartman wanted to form a Christian rock band. All he did was rewrite the lyrics to include Jesus and he had a hit. A priest friend of mine said that this was a sad, but, accurate assessment of OCP's Spirit and Song.
  • Nicely done.
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • Lamentably, this whole thing reminds me of a bad South Park episode wherein Cartman wanted to form a Christian rock band. All he did was rewrite the lyrics to include Jesus and he had a hit. A priest friend of mine said that this was a sad, but, accurate assessment of OCP's Spirit and Song.

    Thank you so much for taking the time to post all of that. Just the other day, I had a discussion with a congregant who asked me if I'd be willing to use her "new" composition set to "Moon River". This sparked a discussion that involved several other people who came to the conclusion that I was being obstinate and unfair to a "composer" who was "guided by the Spirit" in what she wrote.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • On another note, when I asked my middle schoolers to explain the differences between today's contemporary music and Gregorian chant one student raised her hand and answered "today's music is fun and Gregorian chant is more about God". Enough said.
  • Ben YankeBen Yanke
    Posts: 3,114
    Kids get it.
  • Yes, kids get it. They almost immediately do when discussing contemporary music vs chant. They can immediately see the mystery in chant, and appreciate it. I have one student that thinks chant is awful, but with the amount that he complains about it, I wonder if he secretly thinks it beautiful, but because of perceived societal norms and what it "cool" nowadays, he insists on expressing his disapproval in a rather vocal manner.
  • I can guarantee that your student does think it's beautiful. I had my students do a poster on a Baroque composer and most chose Vivaldi. They had the opportunity of presenting their poster to the class and give an impression of what they thought about his music. Most, again, chose "The Four Seasons". They only had to listen to one movement, but all chose to listen to them all saying "it wasn't all that bad and I think I liked it". The presentations were for extra credit and, when the opportunity for the EC was made, the truth about the music came out. And nobody laughed!
    Thanked by 1benedictgal
  • In my parish, I found a sad little book called Essensial Songs: Road Tested for Youth Ministry, or something similar.

    Here is my take on it:

    http://benedictgal-lexorandilexcredendi.blogspot.com/2013/11/road-tested-tires-or-mass.html

    The lyrics are horrible. At some point, Sting might want to sue for copyright infringement for one song. How can OCP encourage this kind of music at Mass? The Banana Boat Song? Pharaoh Baby?
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen canadash
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 4,481
    As always, Michelle, your writings on these issues reflect a sense of logic, understanding, and love for that which is Sacred and Holy. One could only wish that your thoughts and arguments might be more widely disseminated. Thank you, and bless you.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,012
    Concerning my post of Nov 23, it occurred to me that I should post the content that is central to our struggle, and the warning from the Virgin Mary to which I was alluding.

    http://www.fatimacrusader.com/crthird/sfrpg12.asp
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,264
    Just want to give the filioque a big shout out. LOVE the filioque! And it's true besides. Can I get a woot?
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,659
    Fr. Groaner has been preaching the same tripe for years, and has led many Catholics astray. The man has no credibility and I am surprised anyone could believe anything he says. He called for the consecration of Russia again and again, despite the fact it has been done several times over by more than one pope. More conspiracy theory on his part. I am sure that if Our Lady has any message for humanity, she won't filter it through him or his "Fatima" fundraising apparatus.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,012
    I will create another thread to address this properly
  • Fr. Chepponis, please define "truly suitable or can be made suitable."

    What does that mean? How does one make an instrument that is otherwise demonstrably associated with popular secular culture "suitable"? By what criteria is suitability measured? Is suitability a measurable quality?

    In some cases, it appears to be. We know, for instance, that the Church has determined and declared that sacred vessels suitable for use in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass must be made of noble materials (gold, silver), and that glass, wood and pottery vessels are deemed illicit and lacking the dignity required by the purpose for which they will be used.

    How is it, then, that we cannot with equal certainty say that instruments associated with a destructive, self-indulgent secular culture (drum sets, guitars, etc.) also lack this dignity?

    We can no more make the guitar and other similar instruments "suitable" than we can make a pottery chalice "suitable."

    But I'm happy to consider any compelling arguments that intelligently and cogently defend the "suitability" clause in the case of drums, bongos, guitars, rain sticks, bell trees, and other percussion and pop culture instruments.
    Thanked by 2bkenney27 francis