Darth: have you considered Usualis.org?

I got some kind of DNS error when trying usualis.org . . . I don't thinks it's registered - is that the right URL?

I was just going to do a modern version I guess, I'm not really sure. I'm trying to give our little chant group some exposure to the normal PIPs who might not have made it to one of our chant masses (we've only done 2 so far).

I thought about using the Tye version of Rorate Caeli for the hymn, the 7 O antiphons for the processional/antiphons/recessional, and a polyphonic Magnifcat.

I have no idea how to figure out which Psalms I'm to use, which NT canticle or which scripture reading to use . . . any help or direction is appreciated.

I have some suggestions from Cantica Nova, and I have a Benedictine version of regular Vespers but it's for Ordinary Sundays only, so I don't know if that would work or not.

As far as timing goes, I hadn't considered doing it after Mass because once most people hear "Go In Peace," they leave :-) I was thinking that as people were arriving for Mass, they would stumble upon our humble little vespers service and get curious. The regular Saturday music folks would then continue on with the normal mass music.

any how I've got an email out to Ed Schaefer so hopefully he can give me some more concrete instructions.

Actually, if you’re doing first Vespers of Sunday, you won’t get any of the O antiphons, since the one for the 21st is for 2nd Vespers, and the one for the 20th (“O Clavis”) is for the ferial Vespers, not the Sunday one.

Actually, .... does anyone know, I guess that means we miss an O antiphon every year, since Vespers on the Saturday before the 4th Sunday is, by definition, 1st Vespers for Sunday....? Something seems a bit out of whack there...?

I've just noticed that Advent 2008 is not working all-right in http://www.societaslaudis.org, but Advent 2007 is, and the Office of Advent Sundays is the same in all years.

Does anyone else think the 3-year Lectionary cycle is not really worth the trouble it causes?

Dobszay has an interesting take on the 3-year Lectionary cycle; he uses as an example the First Sunday of Lent and contends that it is pointless to use any narrative other than Matthew for the temptation story.

For Ordinary Time, I think the 3-year cycle is a good thing.

ISTM the biggest failure of the liturgical reforms would be something like the failure to retain Latin, the failure to encourage congregational singing (esp. the congregation’s distinct role), widespread versus populum (given that enough scholars decry the practice on historical grounds to give pause), etc.

I'm sticking with the usus antiquior Office, warts and all.

Oh, short of using the Mundelein Psalter, I don't know why any layman would use the new LOH. I just go to Breviary.org (even though it's schismatic) and use the English translations they have. I'm working on transcribing some of the antiphons as well for singing. And someone does need to stand up to the 3 year lectionary. Sadly, I suspect Pope Benedict is a supporter of it. And indeed, it is good IN THEORY. But it was so poorly done, and the supposed benefits so small, that it would be best to stick to the old lectionary. Maybe if enough people get noisy about it, they might offer the two lectionaries as "options" as is done in protestant churches? Who knows. But I'm not holding my breath to get out of this ABC nonsense.

Dear priorstf,

Since Darth asks about a sung LotH service, IMO it is better to use the Gregorian antiphons rather than those in the breviary.

I could be wrong here, but I believe “Ceremonies” is not a liturgical book, and that it contains no rubrics that hold force of law that cannot be found in official liturgical documents.

The rubrics for celebrating the daily offices combined with (or adjoining) the Mass are found in the General Instruction of the Liturgy of the Hours (google it), §93-99.

I feel your pain, Darth. It often takes more time doing these than a full-time job. (Don't let my real employer hear me say that!) Let me know if I can ever help.

Also, this forum is a great resource if there is ever something in a Latin liturgical book that you need help with. For example, many here would probably gladly translate the OCO entries for a given occasion for you.

Dear Michael,

What is it about the LotH that you think is so complicated?

To find which week of the psalter you’re in, just take the remainder from dividing the current week into 4, so the 3rd week of Advent gives 3, the 5th week of Lent gives 1, and the 28th week of OT gives 4.

The Ordinary gives you pretty straightforward instructions about where to find everything else; if the day has a specific text assigned to it for something, of course, then you just use that.

Chonak,

I use the 1-volume edition; when I have used the 4-volume one, it has seemed to me that there is just as much page-flipping involved.

And let's also include the complications of which parts of the Office are to be taken from a proper for a solemnity/feast/memorial/optional-memorial .

Felipe,

The text is probably easy enough to deal with once you have ascertained the rules, as you have. It's the music that's hard to find. Is there one book with all the music (antiphons, psalm tones, responses, prayer formulas, and canticles) like there is for the Roman Breviary? (the Liber usualis). When I had to do a week of these, I had no idea where to find antiphon melodies or the NT canticle. Sure we can do them all recto tono, but that hardly seems worth the effort of singing.

The music is, yes, hard to find.

A while back when I thought I would be assembling Liturgy of the Hours services for our church dedication (Nov. 16th, for anyone in the Houston area!), I sought out the Gregorian chant antiphons indicated in the OCO. Someone on this forum very graciously scanned and mailed me copies of some antiphons that were not in any of the online resources.

I think part of the problem is that many antiphons were incorporated into the OCO from non-Roman sources, whereas the LU represents a “purely Roman” collection of antiphons. (DISCLAIMER: That may be off the mark; I think that’s how things are, but it’s mostly a surmise.)

There is, yes, an opportunity to do good if some project to realize the OCO could be put together. It would be a lot of data entry, but if it could be done, WOW how useful would that be...

Michael - The folks who attend our First Friday Exposition and Vespers/Benediction are not folks who regularly pray the Liturgy of the Hours. That we can introduce them to the concept of a regular sequence of prayer, and a liturgy aside from the Mass, in the splendor of the presence of Christ is a pretty good start.

The schola sings an Ad Vesperas, Magnificat and Marian Hymn in Latin, but the remainder of the service, including an opening hymn, are all in the vernacular. Our pastor prefers the canticle and psalms be spoken by the congregation on a side-to-side basis, so Latin is out of the question.

Overall, I think that we are offering a great experience for the congregation. As a side effect, the pastor is learning that the people are picking up the Magnificat and Marian hymns quite quickly - which might help lead to the introduction of additional Latin in the future. So perhaps the battle can rage behind the scene over Breviary v. LoH, but in the world of our church there is plenty of beauty.

priorstf, Of course. The vernacular LOH is, as you say, a good way to introduce the Church's liturgy outside of the Mass. What you are doing is commendable, although I hope your pastor will allow antiphon singing soon. At my church, the congregation picked up the tones in no time flat. My problem is with the liturgy itself, especially after reading Dobzay. It is my hope that we can regain the traditional breviary and simply translate it for parish use in the vernacular. Let the battles begin "behind the scenes".

priorstf - thank you. I'll see if I can piece together a 4th sunday in advent vespers from all the help I've received. wish me luck :)

> I'll see if I can piece together a 4th sunday in advent vespers from all the help I've received.

Perhaps I can offer you some further help. Below I will follow the Ordo Cantus Officii (OCO) and refer often to the Liber Usualis (LU); both these books can be downloaded from the Musica Sacra site. If I make some mistake I hope someone will be kind enough to correct me. I will only refer to publications available online as HTML or PDF files.

Deus in adiutorium - LU p. 250

Hymn - «Verbum»; sing it with the same melody of hymn «Conditor alme siderum»; this hymn appears in LU p. 324 as «Creator alme siderum» (17th c. revised lyrics); you can find the words of hymn «Verbum» here:
http://www.societaslaudis.org/index.php?option=com_liturgiahorarum&date=20081221&office=vepres&mois_courant=12&an=2008

Antiphon 1 - «Intuemini» with psalm 109; the words of the psalm are in the Societas Laudis site; the antiphon of OCO is not available on-line, but you have a neo-gregorian replacement here:
http://www.nocturnale.de/pdf/Liturgia_Horarum/Temporale%20I%20a%20(Tempus%20Adventus).pdf
See page 28. This goes with psalm-tone IVa, LU p. 115. (See LU p. 130 for the old translation of that psalm in that tone.) If someone gets you the genuine antiphon «Intuemini», sing it instead!

Antiphon 2 - «Erunt prava» with psalm 111; the words of the psalm are in the Societas Laudis site; see LU p. 357, and for the Ig psalm-tone see LU p. 113. (See LU p. 140 for the old translation of that psalm in that tone.)


NT canticle - the OCO says (p. [54]410) that you need no antiphon, and should sing the canticle as a responsory. You can find that in this site:
http://www.scholasaintmaur.net/Partitions/Voir_categorie.html
You must register (it's free) to download. Choose «Cantique de l'Apocalypse - alleluia ton solennel» [Apocalypse canticle - alleluia, solemn tone] and you'll get the file. (It's an ancient tone, by the way, formerly used at Ascension for psalm 46, and now adapted for this canticle.) If you don't like the idea, you can use the neo-gregorian antiphon from the Nocturnale site, but the responsorial singing is what the OCO mandates.

Lectio brevis - «Gaudéte in Dómino semper» You can find the text in the Societas Laudis site. Use the tone at LU p. 123.

Responsory - «Ostende nobis» LU p. 243

Magnificat - This year the 4th sunday of Advent falls on December 21, hence use antiphon «O oriens», LU p. 342; for the Magnificat in tone IID see LU p. 214.

Preces - The Societas Laudis site does NOT follow the Liturgy of the Hours (LotH) for the Preces. If memory does not fail me, they say they follow some recent alternative Solesmes publication. But you can do as they do as sing the Preces they have there. If you prefer to follow the LotH also here, please find someone who has the LotH in Latin, and ask him/her to give you a copy of that page! I am not sure about the tone for the Preces, but I guess that the simple tone for versicles (LU p. 118) will do fine.

Pater noster - Sing some usual tone for the Lord's prayer; see for instance the Jubilate Deo booklet, p. 21:
http://www.ceciliaschola.org/notes/jubilatedeo.html

Collect - «Grátiam tuam», with tone of LU p. 98 (I find this the easier one) or of LU p. 100. Notice that there is no Oremus before.

Conclusion - If there is a priest or a deacon, he'll bless the people as in Mass; if not, sing «Dóminus nos benedícat» (check the Societas Laudis site again for the words), using for instance the simple tone for versicles again.

And that's it.

Felipe,

Well, I have at least talked to many people about the LotH. The reasons given for the changes focus primarily on the need to fit the Office into a priest's busy schedule. Matins, for example may recited at almost any time during the day. I've never really gotten satisfactory explanations for the added canticle to EP or the change of place for the hymn from its traditional location. I'm afraid that one cannot argue two important points about the LotH. First, it was conceived virtually in secret by Bugnini and his cohort, which creates the second issue. It is a serious rupture in liturgical practice. Dobzay makes a good point about the fact that few of the bishops got a chance to review the LotH before it was made official.

I take your points about some parts being only in the English language version, but why would that be the case? What was essentially wrong with the Traditional Roman Breviary that it had to be virtually tossed in the dustbin? If anyone has read on this extensively and can support the changes, I'd really love hear them. Why couldn't parish priests be allowed an abbreviated breviary, something like the Little Hours, if it was so onerous?

Love the discussion. It's kind of pet issue of mine since I love the Office so much.

Michael -

This being a pet project of yours, two questions:

1) Do you know what document is was that superseded Sacrosanctum Consilium §101-103 that calls for clerics to say the Divine Office? I get the impression clerics should normally use Latin except when with a group of the faithful when the vernacular would be appropriate. It seems that a cleric saying it alone in the vernacular is a violation of the Spirit of Vatican II®!!

2) For Morning Prayer on Advent weekdays (sorry - said in the vernacular ala Christian Prayer) should we use the antiphons from Sunday or those from the appropriate week? I love the Sunday ones, which truly reinforce the fact that it is Advent, but if we shouldn't, we shouldn't. This is for a series of 9 public MPs we'll say at the cathedral.

Thanks.

dvalerio - thank you so much for going into such great detail for this first Sunday of Vespers. If anyone doubted what a chore this is to arrange, read dvalerio's post carefully and look at what it took to put one service together. It boggles the mind . . .

I will continue to do my homework on this and see if I can figure it out . . .

thanks again

Gavin, Your point about the flexibility of the Office, especially for the laity is well taken. However, the Office is part of the Church's Liturgy, i.e., her public prayer, and so is treated in the Vatican II document on liturgy. Yes, it has been treated for centuries now as the private reading, or breviary, of clerics. But they pray it in their capacity as ordained representatives of the Church, not merely privately. Vatican II tried to revive the corporate, public aspect of the Office, but the long standing practice of private recitation seems to be winning.

Yes, the rubrics, such as they are, and the options are bewildering. About 12 years ago, I organized sung Advent Vespers at my parish 2 or 3 years running. Not knowing anything else then, I went strictly by Christian Prayer, all English, including 'psalm-prayers' at the pastor's insistence. All antiphons on psalm tones, responsories adapted from the Gregorian ones. I've learned a lot since then, which actually makes things more difficult. Dobszay and others were an eye-opener on the confusion.

Anyway, my advice such as it is, would be to keep things clear and simple. Those Advent Vespers, for the small group who participated, were a wonderful way to keep the season, and to withdraw a little from the secular hullabaloo of anticipated Christmas for all of December. Gathering in the dimly lit parish church to sing the psalms and Magnificat expectantly was very spiritually beneficial for me. I often thought of that line in the post-Our Father prayer...."as we wait in joyful hope for the coming of our Saviour Jesus Christ."

Gavin - I agree that in our private lives we are free to pray as we will. A sign of the cross and a verse of Popeye the Sailor Man said each morning can, with the right mental purpose, be a perfectly legitimate personal Morning Prayer. We can just as easily say that there will be a Prayer Service at the church on Wednesday night and introduce anything we'd like.

But when we as members of a church announce that we will celebrate Vespers/Evening Prayer or Morning Prayer, I believe that we are binding ourselves to the rubrics of the liturgy. This is particularly true when we invite members of the clergy to participate, but should hold even when they do not. People have a right to expect our being just as true to the rubrics of the Liturgy of the Hours as to the rubrics of the Liturgy of the Mass.