Put John Nash on it, delving for an algorithm.
Seriously, does no one read what I write anymore (Brian?)- postludes are diamonds. Someone kvetches, you simply respond, uh Mildred, you're supposed to listen. Obvious moral: shut up during postludes. Subtext: shut up before thinking to complain to organist or director.
It is sad to resort to such colloquialisms vis a vis "Da Faithful." But if they or he/she turns into "master of the fateful," they get their just rewards. Period. (Which is a serious period, unlike someone else's of recent note.)

At the Parish I worked at until this past weekend, I would be stopped regularly by folks who thought the organ was too loud. Often times after I walked away from them, I'd be stopped by someone else who heard them who would tell me they didn't think it was loud enough. I think the only real answer is giving out iPods to folks with ear-buds as they enter the church. Set your own volume in your ears.

Are there any technical matters that occasionally figure into issues like this? E.g., the listeners' location; any possibility of microphones picking up organ sound and feeding it into the amplified sound system; location and direction of speakers (for electronic instruments); voicing of the instrument.

It would also depend on the location of the organ. I tend to prefer the whole loft at the back of the church as I think it spreads the sound more evenly. One place I play the organ is at floor level just in front and off to the side of the sanctuary. I'm sure that people sitting close to the organ find it too loud but those at the back of the church would find it a bit soft. The carpet doesn't help.

While most of you are right in your defense of the organ, that it is not too loud, it is only fair to honestly consider the complaint when you receive it. Is the organ, in fact, too loud?

I want to give the obvious criterion that if you can't hear the singing, it's too loud. However, that might not be helpful if you have a not-very-singing parish. You could crank it down to oblivion and still not hear singing in some places.

I would also venture to say that most churches have "sound pockets", so those sitting close to those pockets are going to hear it either too loud or too soft.

This is important. I used to play at a parish where the console was in the south transept while the pipes were still in the gallery. I used to hear complaints of "It's too loud" and "I can't hear anyone singing," all from people who sat in the back, near the pipes, behind anyone who would actually be singing.

...the obvious criterion that if you can't hear the singing, it's too loud.

Seemingly obvious, but too soft playing can also squelch singing. I usually find to my surprise that pulling another stop makes the voices even more prominent in the balance.

The point of preludes and postludes is to discourage or cover up chatter and other noise as congregations enter and leave the church.

What if you fix a bucket of water on a slightly inclined board above the organist's head. Anything equivalent to 4 measures of contrabombarde empties the bucket.

As in (purple bold)? You better be careful around those organists. I hear they have fearsome egos and tempers. (purple bold)

Hartley Martin's assertion about the purpose of preludes and postludes is astonishing. Is it made tongue-in-cheek. One hopes so!

The purpose of a prelude is to offer a musical preparation for the tone, whether joyful, celebratory, prayerful, penitential, thankfulness, meditative, etc., of the theme of the day, and to lead straight into the entrance hymn or introit. Ideally, there should be no interruption of any kind (read announcements and other chatter from some chatterbox person at the microphone) between the prelude and the introduction of the hymn. The prelude, as an ornament to the mass itself, is pointless if it is not conceived of and experienced as an integral element of the introductory portion of the mass, leading DIRECTLY into the entrance hymn or introit.

The postlude, likewise, is understood properly as a musical summation of the day's mood, an extension of the mass's theme, filling the atmosphere with appropriate music as the faithful depart. It is not just an add-on. So: most people talk and chatter during it? they aren't 'listening' to it? it still affects them and reinforces phonically what they have experienced at a given celebration of the holy mysteries. Even if they are paying it no mind, they still leave hearing the sound of the King of Instruments celebrating the King of kings in his temple. No other instrument can boast of such a pedigree, or of such a vocation and purpose.

As for it being 'too loud'? Most organists (excepting perhaps some injudicious and sophomoric students) know very well how to judge the loudness of their organs as appropriate to given musical moments. Too, it happens occasionally that we mis-judge or don't get the level of singing we expected and have to lower our expectations and our volume of sound. Those who complain, though, that the organ is ipso facto too loud (conveniently not noticing nor appreciating that it in fact is not continually loud or soft) are very often people who simply don't like what they are hearing. I have actually had more people more often tell me that they love it when I 'pull out all the stops'. Very few have been the times I've heard that the organ was 'too loud'.

Given the types who usually complain about the organ being too loud, my response would be to put on a sad puppy dog face and say something completely inane like, "The organ is only too loud because your heart is too small", because that's pretty much the kind of response you'd expect from a guitarist to make to any criticism.

One of the best organists in the area played for a wedding and accompanied a singer there. He was not familiar with the church, and had not played the instrument before.

He asked for advice on the balance between the organ and singer. Perhaps that's why he's one of the best around, eh?

hartleymartin,

http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/9971/the-vertical

Honestly, if they are complaining with that few stops on, there's something wrong with them. You honestly shouldn't be complaining unless there's like 4 trumpet stops on. Using 3 non-trumpety stops is quiet, seriously. Some people are just too hard to please I guess.

I once played Amazing Grace in a minor key for a penance service on a quiet few stops.

One of the factors in varying loudness of the organ is the fact that the actual sound waves produced by the organ vary widely in size. As a result, the apparent volume of pedal tones can change depending upon where the listener is sitting in the church. Also remember that bass notes often sound louder when there are (as in most older churches) hard reflective surfaces everywhere. In my parish, since the organ is in the choir loft, what I perceive is quite different from what the congregation does. It took me quite some time to adjust to the acoustics. Unfortunately, many of us do not have the time to do a proper sound check of the churches we play in less regularly, but in a pinch try lighter pedal registrations and see how it works for you.

How exciting would Beethoven's 5th sound if the opening statement were pianissimo? If you are playing the piece as written, no apology is necessary. Also, remember, with hymn playing the organist leads the singing, not accompanies it. For those who can't hear their prayers after Mass, remind them that your Postlude is your prayer after Mass, and God should be able to hear their prayers over the playing!

I found that a complaint about our organ being too loud was understandable. There was a horrid, screechy mixture that grated on everyone's nerves and ears when using full organ. I had the mixture revoiced and the complaints disappeared.

I always say to play the organ loud and proud.

People who complain about the loudness of the organ don't want to hear it at all.

Bingo.

I usually have only one person in an entire congregation complain. And they ONLY complain about simulacrums because they are like drinking from a fire hydrant. So in that regard, they are justified.

I never got a single complaint playing this... ever...

https://pasiorgans.com/instruments/opus5.html

It's interesting reading through this old thread. There are definitely some common themes. I can also echo the Gerre Hancock experience.

At my current post I was approached by a woman who both wanted the schmultzy stuff that I was phasing out and also complained about the organ being too loud. I patiently listened to her concerns and said I would "see what I can do". I didn't change a thing. A few months later she came to me and was so grateful because "it's so much better now; thank you!". Lol.

Just two weeks ago we announced to the congregation that we are getting a new digital organ to replace our old analogue that was installed in 1970. Just last week someone told our pastor that she "could really hear a difference with the new organ!" [that wont be installed until September]

So the moral of the story is, St. Thomas Aquinas was right: things are heard according to the mode of the receiver. If people are well-disposed, they will hear your playing favorably, and if they are not, they will find any manner of things to complain about.

Regarding hearing aids, I can vouch for that too. I've even heard [from the loft] certain parishioners hearing aids start squealing in response to certain sounds on the organ. I've also had run-ins with hearing aid wearers. Two summers ago we were on vacation in Florida (right before everything shut down; we were very fortunate!) and since I was down there, I made the drive down to Ave Maria University to go test drive the M&O that they have in their oratory. Here I was, special scheduled visit all the way down from Indiana (and I was there with an M&O rep since we were considering purchasing an instrument from them) and a woman downstairs huffed back and yelled at us because she couldn't pray! and it hurt her ears with her hearing aids! The humorously simple solution was to just pop them out so she wouldn't have to hear us... but she much preferred to yell at us instead, alas. Some people are just that way.

Also, perception is relative. I played for one neo-gothic gem in the middle of nowhere Ohio for two summers. They had an old Hook & Hastings up in the loft that was on the OHS register. This country church, with high gothic vaulting, could probably seat 800-1000 people. I was told that I could only use the 8' principal on the great on the final verse of the recessional hymns. The people had not had any real organists since forever and ever, amen. By consequence, anyone who ever played for them usually used the little half-height spinnet piano, and if they did touch the organ, they were terrified of the thing and only used the softest stops. Now, I'll admit, that the old H&H principal was a tubby old thing; but it was also meant to support a large congregation in a huge church. But the fact that I couldn't use the most basic stop excepting exceptional cases really blew me away. It was all because they had become habituated to anemic music. By consequence, anything with body overwhelmed them. Mind you, I could sit at the console en fenetre with the principal facade inches from my face (the toes were just above the music rack; it was a modest instrument, actually) and I wasn't perturbed by the sound in the slightest, but the old grey hairs 150' away were.

To be fair to the hearing aid crowd: anything >8’ flute, box shut, is way too much sound for the tiny microphone, amplifier, and speaker in a hearing aid to process. There is tremendous distortion and feedback when a device made to pick up a person speaking conversationally tries to amplify that much sound. Every church sound system really should have a wireless transmitter, so the people with hearing aids can just switch them to the T-coil setting. Then they get a nice clean feed of only what’s coming into the microphones (priest, lector) and aren’t trying to amplify organ+singing+reverb.

I've had a number of persons comment to the effect that 'I don't need my hearing aid when you are playing' - and, they liked it loud.

That's great. When someone comments that the organ is too loud, I am often tempted to tell them to turn their hearing aid down.
BTW - I am not an organist. I'm just a lowly cantor. But I love the organ and I believe in its proper place in the Roman liturgy.