Seems a bit ridiculous to me. I welcome all, and consider it a good way to evangelize. YMMV.

Must be nice to be able to be that exclusive. I haven't found that Catholics are beating down the doors to get into choirs.

Most of my choir is non-Catholic.
(Of course, I work at an Episcopal parish...)

A new soprano asked to join my choir last year. She had a wonderful voice and was a good reader too. There was no way I was sending her to the Anglican Church down the road! And now she's learning about the faith. PTL she wanted to come!

Maybe we should let non-Catholics be altar boys or Eucharistic ministers. I mean, it might help evangelize, right?

Or is there something about the liturgical nature of those positions that simply makes them unsuitable for a non-Catholic, regardless of his ability and willingness to help? It seems like one might reasonably ask why the music at Mass is such so non-integral to the sacred liturgical action that we would entertain willingly the idea of non-Catholics horning in on the show. Pius X thought that "singers in church have a real liturgical office"; was he wrong?

This topic is less of a concern in Catholic schools. As many of you may realize, there are many non-Catholics in the Catholic school system. These children are of course just as capable of performing the duties assigned to them as their Catholic counterparts. However, if I'm correct, they cannot serve at Mass (vested server positions) if they or their families are not Catholic. In the schools, we welcome everyone, especially for music.

Pius X thought that "singers in church have a real liturgical office"; was he wrong?

Do you have context for that quotation? "In choir" usually meant formal clerical status in those days, which is NOT the same as lay people who sing in church choirs these days.

There's no question that 'singers....have a liturgical office'. The question is whether St Pius X was referring to clerics or laypeople.

What about non-Catholic organists who accompany the liturgical action? Are faith restrictions binding upon singers only?

And, do Catholic organists bring a degree of sanctity to the separated brethren for whom they work? Inquiring minds want to know! ;-)

PGA, for clarification, I never said anything about DM's, I said clearly "choir masters." There's a difference. And I know of an organists who faithfully executed their duties over decades and well into adulthood made the same decision as I as a young adult.
I hope you didn't miss the forest of my point for the tree of its exemplars.

And as an addendum about BEING lay ministers, out of curiosity:
How many of us have witnessed a truly formal commissioning of parish musicians as are provided RE instructors, EMHC's, lectors etc.?

A fair point, and we can look at the norms for ecumenical activity as a model for guidance in this area. It is permissible to let a non-Catholic present an Old Testament or Epistle reading at Mass; the involvement of a non-Catholic singer presenting the Responsorial Psalm should be treated the same way.

Right, we were in agreement about that some three years ago. Since it requires the permission of the ordinary, are you proposing that the ordinary's permission also be required for a non-Catholic to sing in the choir?

Do you have context for that quotation? "In choir" usually meant formal clerical status in those days, which is NOT the same as lay people who sing in church choirs these days.

There's no question that 'singers....have a liturgical office'. The question is whether St Pius X was referring to clerics or laypeople.

The quotation is from the 1903 motu proprio. Although it is a surprisingly widespread modern misconception that somehow he was referring only to clerics sitting "in choir" in the sanctuary, he did not mean it that way, and people in 1903 did not understand it that way (which was why it was so controversial that he restricted participation in the choir to men). This explains, for instance, his observation that "whenever . . . it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys." If it were actually possible to use women for these parts provided they were mere seated outside the sanctuary, then that would make a liar of Pius and obviate the whole point of this remark.

So...if non-Catholics shouldn't sing in our choirs, perhaps Catholics ought not hire out to other faiths? (Adam, et al) And what of those people who write the music we sing, like Marty Haugen? (No doubt he's been "exposed" to the Faith long enough- I doubt he'll ever convert.)

Perhaps I myself have broken some unwritten rule by snagging any of my non-Catholic piano player friends to help us out on occasion.

Boy, I thought that this thread was going to combust, implode, detonate, and incinerate.....until I read your post, Adam. Big smile!

Also, here is a poem I once wrote about why I can only do some of the job descriptions mentioned above:


ON THE ORGAN

I'm not very good at the keyboard, I know
I play things too loud, I play things too slow.
But there's one thing of all where I'm quite incomplete:
I have no skills for playing old hymns with my feet.

https://github.com/adammichaelwood/adam.michael.wood_writing/tree/master/poems

What do people need? Arm flappers, or faith-filled servants?

Why not both?

How many of us have witnessed a truly formal commissioning of parish musicians as are provided RE instructors, EMHC's, lectors etc.?

We commission all of our lay ministers at the same time. Granted there aren't many, but we do, and Father makes sure the musicians are included.

Wanted: Catholic Arm Flappers. Must be able to lift arm perpendicular to the floor, then slowly descend to an inviting 45 degree angle, magically engaging the congregation in a full participatory cantillation. Non-Catholics need not apply.

"What do people need? Arm flappers, or faith-filled servants?"

Arm flappers. Why the personal faith of the music director makes any impact upon the success of the liturgy is completely beyond me.

Having worked for many denominations and traditions, what I like best about Catholicism is that it's all spelled out. There are no options, no wiggle room. Graduale Romanum. Full stop. Open to the proper day, bookmark the Kyriale, and go! Among Episcopalians, Methodists, Lutherans, there is NO such clear musical direction; it's a matter of the tastes of the musician and the parish.

There are too many bad Catholic musicians making bad music because bad priests won't hire a good protestant. All the good Catholic music programs I've run across have been either run by protestants or Catholic musicians with significant protestant influence. In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest (more-than-half-humorously) that protestants ought to be preferred, as they do not have influence of the foul culture of mediocrity and bad taste that constitutes Catholic culture of today.

Yes, but even outside of that, the strictures are very well spelled out. It's hard to screw up Catholic music - even though so many are very very talented at doing so.

Maybe we should also take to hiring protestant ministers to teach and preach - and why not say mass and be pastors? As long as they TEACH the right things - who cares if they personally believe it? After all, many are better teachers and preachers than Catholic priests ...

It's funny to read this post as I sit at my office putting together Propers (with some help from the lovely people on this forum) for the Feast of St. Francis of Assisi coming up October 4th.

I can see both sides of the debate for the most part. It comes down to resources available in my humble opinion. I happen to be the new DOSL (Director of Sacred Liturgy) at my new assignment. It is completely different having "arm flappers" and "hand and foot button pushers". I have one button pusher who is not Catholic, but he is very professional. I have one that's a "nominal Catholic" and one who comes from the "Glory and Praise" tradition.

I myself am a convert with 6 years experience in Catholic Liturgy. I blame my college education in Sacred Music for half of my conversion, and since I learned so much about a faith I would "never work for", I found some interesting things happening with liturgy at my first parish. Thank God for good and holy priests who sought the reform of the reform and got me plugged in with free internet resources here and ccwatershed.

Most, if not all of the reason why I was employed above the residential "arm flappers" in my current assignment is because, according to my current employer, I was "the only Catholic musician in the area with any passion for the liturgy at all".

My Sacred Music Prof in college was the only individual I know that had a passion for the liturgy, but wasn't a Catholic. I obviously became Catholic, and I have several friends who admire the liturgy, but want nothing (at this point in time) to be Catholic. It truly is an interesting era that we live in.

I personally welcome any and all (in the spirit of Evangelization) to sing in our choirs so long as they are not disruptive or disrespectful. We always need the voices, and it's a very special opportunity to teach the faith.

Although I don't see a problem with non-Catholics in a choir (in fact, we have a few and I wouldn't give them up!), isn't there a citation in STTL or one of the Vatican documents that restricts cantor and lector roles to Catholics only?

In the choir that I sing, it is the age and relationship status that determine who get to stay in the soprano and alto sections. The soprano section leader has been in love with the conductor for more than 20 years. He is not interested in an exclusive relationship with her and was known to date other choir members. The soprano section leader is therefore very wary of sopranos and altos who are single and under age 50. Slowly but surely, she turns them away with her terrible attitude. It is an unfortunate situation, but nobody dares to complain.

There aren't enough children and teenagers around to form a youth program. I was talking about single women in their 20s and 30s who were turned away. It is unlikely for the church to get a new choir director because he is very good with his music. People seem to turn a blind eye to the situation. Currently, there is no choir member under age 50 except for two paid men.

Is the pastor aware of this?
He should set her straight or you should invite her to consider another ministry.
It's beyond pitiful that people know of this and turn a blind eye to it.

It's troubling to be at a church with good music and sound preaching and remember that the cantor is a Unitarian or even an unbaptized person.

True, and I would add to this the Catholic cantors who openly commit objectively mortal sins, or situationally mortal sins like detraction, without repentance.

But what is troubling and frankly terrifying for me in these situations is the human ability to justify ourselves when we act at variance with orthodox doctrine, even when we willingly expose ourselves to the preaching and praxis of that doctrine. What am I justifying, in my life, when I approach the altar or lectern or music stand?