The Transformation of Traditionalism.... interesting discussion cooking
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Dear old Webster says that aberration is a deviation from the normal state.

    @chonak: Why not go whole hog, then, and opt for "diabolically-inspired"?


    No one has said anything was diabolically inspired. Probably, it was more a case of the breakdown of central authority after the fall of Old Rome. It seems the greater the distance from Rome, the stranger things became. I am not fan of Trent, since I think it had a tendency to go overboard when addressing issues. But can you imagine the craziness the council had to deal with? After several centuries of many doing their own thing, it must have been chaotic. Sounds a little like today, doesn't it?
  • MHIMHI
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Does anyone really think that, 1900 years ago, a religious gathering of any kind, by any group of people, would not have included singing?

    And that, aside from the notion (which I think is accurate) that the whole concept of formalized-speaking-out-loud (such as from scripture, or prayer) would almost certainly have been wrapped up in a style we would today describe as singing or chanting, but which they wouldn't have associated (necessarily) with the art of music.

    Something doesn't have to have explicitly existed at the time of the Apostles for it to be valid, legitimate, or good. (However much I wish that were true every time I see one of those weird cut-away mini-fiddle chasubles.)
  • MHIMHI
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  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    Does anyone really think that, 1900 years ago, a religious gathering of any kind, by any group of people, would not have included singing?


    Yes, where appropriate.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Hmmm ... biting my tongue, while others seem to tilt at windmills.
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I was taught by my mentors, and Dom Saulnier, that low mass is valid, fully the mass, and used as a pastoral necessity. However, it is not the normative expression of the mass. Some say it is not the fullest expression of the mass- that ultimately the solemn mass is normative.


    That's exactly what I've been taught as well. The Easterns never lost it!

    Singing is the language of prayer!
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Does anyone really think that, 1900 years ago, a religious gathering of any kind, by any group of people, would not have included singing?

    Quakers sing?
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Quakers sing?

    There were Quakers in 113?
    Thanked by 3JulieColl Adam Wood Ben
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Didn't you know, Charles? in the year 83 A.D. the priests wore fiddle-backs, sang polyphony anticipating the Renaissance, advocated Scholastic theology, and played Bach on classically voiced organs. Where have you been? ;-)

    I don't know about Quakers in 113, but I am certain they had quackers - likely ancestors of Daffy D.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Ben
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Is there ANY religion which requires the people to be silent at their worship services?

    Just askin'.

    P.S. I'm not talking about periods of silence, but being totally silent.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Misread the amount of years.
    Maybe Zoroastrians never sang....
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Freddie Mercury sang. He was Zoroastrian.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Well, haven't we all been in situations where we could share his sentiment: "Just gotta get out; just gotta right out of here"?
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    As far as I know the Low Mass originated in the Middle Ages in monasteries because the numerous altars which flourished then in imitation of the station churches of Rome were to be given due liturgical veneration. The use of incense, ministers and chant would have become impossible when the number of altars reached a certain level.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    because the numerous altars which flourished then in imitation of the station churches of Rome were to be given due liturgical veneration.


    ...because people paid to have Masses said. The more Masses, the more payments.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I think it fair to say it was both reasons. Perhaps at any given time, more one than the other, but essentially both. Money is the root of all evil. Things haven't changed much, have they?
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The sense I get from a lot of my "traditionalist" friends is that they want to go to church to have an encounter with the divine. They want a God-centred and a God-focussed action of worship, and not one of the "Gather 'round the table of the lord" community get togethers at the "meetin' hause."

    Since the introduction of the new missal translation, the SEP and the ICEL Chant Mass, (and some good traditional hymnody) people are happier to attend an ordinary form mass, because they get the sense that they are entering into the sacred.

    Okay, so the SEP isn't the Simplex or the Graduale Romanum, but people like it when it is used. My biggest surprise at the recent ACSA2013 conference was the number of people in the congregation who joined in the singing of the propers (we printed them in the liturgy booklets). My next surprised was how well they all sang the hymns, many of which are not familiar and in fact, one of which was my own paraphrase of a well-known latin hymn!

    Coming to my real point, I regard myself as having a very traditional sort of spirituality, and a love for traditional liturgy and music. But at the same time, I see what the council fathers were driving at when they wanted to reform the liturgy, and just like many people here, I am trying to bring about the sort of liturgies that have a continuity of tradition.
  • MHIMHI
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  • MHIMHI
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    Thanked by 2Chrism JulieColl
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    MHI, I think you go too far. Does accepting a hermeneutic of continuity require that we cannot make distinctions among elements of the tradition, and consider some liturgical forms more authentic than others, or perhaps more developed or more flourishing?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • MHIMHI
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  • Chrism
    Posts: 872
    I'm not sure I would say "more authentic", but certainly "more desirable", in the sense that we desire peace, and wealth, and health, and time, and freedom from the hustle and bustle and toil of daily life, and fine weather, and talent, and learning, and vocations, and generosity, and conversions, and the perseverance of the Baptized...some of the preconditions for high liturgy.

    Someone who holds a purely natural view could see Mass itself as the "fruit" of treasonous clerics and a timorous procurator who conspired to kill God. (But I laugh when I think of the motives of monks who preferred to offer Mass themselves each day compared with the motives of Byzantine Emperors.)

    As far as "flourishing" I see Low Mass and High Mass both flourishing except where they form crowds loyal to one party or the other and make war with each other. This is usually a dead soil.

  • MHIMHI
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    Thanked by 1Chrism
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    We agree on the principle: the low Mass is good; the solemn Mass is better. I'd contend that in some times and places, the good low Mass has predominated over the better solemn Mass to the extent that the latter practically disappeared, which was an impoverishment in those places.
    Thanked by 2MHI hilluminar
  • MHIMHI
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,798
    If comparing Low Mass with motets by Couperin & Delalande to Solemn Mass with guitars and/or Rossini, the question should be framed "better for whom?"
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    I don't wish to contradict my Bay Area friend, but I think it more likely that a Solemn High Mass that incorporates a serious guitar or harp accompaniment would trump Rossini any day, any hour.
  • Chonak's comment at 8:10 sums up my thinking on the subject of the allowed, though not preferred, low mass.

    There are several good reasons to allow for low masses. There are also weaker reasons, such as simply not wanting to spend the necessary resources on a music program or train enough servers.

    I would not ever call the low mass an aberration, btw.
    Thanked by 2MHI CHGiffen
  • MHIMHI
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
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    Thanked by 1Andrew Motyka
  • I still remember the old Sunday schedule at IrishTenor's parish: something like "Low Masses at 6, 7, 8, 9, and 10 a.m.; High Mass at 11." That was fairly typical, I gather, for a large urban parish in the early 1960s. There were also Low Masses in the basement (with a sea of folding metal chairs instead of pews) on the half-hour all morning. There might have been more than the one High Mass. It was my grandparents' church, and if Grandma was with us, we generally went to High Mass, much to my satisfaction. If she wasn't along and my dad was in charge, down we went to the basement Low Mass.
    Thanked by 2JulieColl MHI
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160

    Besides missing my point, that's your argument?
    I think you want the room marked contradiction.
  • MHI, I totally understand the practical realities for allowing low mass. We only have 2/16 scheduled sung masses a week, as you noted.

    That number could be increased, as we now have 62 volunteers singing in three choirs, and there are at least 40 servers last time I checked. The choristers especially could sing more. (The recordings on the website are several years old, and do not reflect the different choirs current capabilities.) Adding more sung masses is up to the pastor, and Lord knows I bug him enough, though I have mentioned it a few times. ;)

    2/5 Sunday masses are sung, which I'm told is a rarity at EF parishes. I think when most people advocate sung masses, they are talking about Sunday masses, and don't consider weekday masses as much. Maybe I'm wrong about that.
    Thanked by 3JulieColl MHI CHGiffen
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Besides missing my point, that's your argument?


    I didn't miss your point. I have no argument with it.

    With perhaps a small degree of "personal preferences," I think (as far as I can tell) that you and I are pretty much on the same page about liturgical ideals, appropriateness, pastoral sensitivity, liberality in instrumentation and styling, etc.

    NOTE TO ALL
    If I disagree with you for serious, I will write a long post.
    If my disagreement comes in the form of a poem, cat-picture, or sarcastic link, I'm probably just trying to make you laugh. Or make myself laugh.
  • Another huge practical factor in the prevalence of (esp early morning) low masses before the last council was the older fasting observances.

    Hungry Catholics would seek out fast and early masses so as to get to break the fast sooner. It's worth noting that sung masses would typically be after 10-11am.
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    Mary Ann,

    I want to be in your parish! Is this an FSSP or traditional order parish or a regular diocesan parish? How long has it been in existence?
  • MHIMHI
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I have 4 masses on Sunday morning through early afternoon. They are all sung to some degree. The associate pastor sings nearly everything, and the pastor restricts himself to singing the Ordinary and hymns. The Ordinary is nearly always sung. Now what the "contemporary" crowd does Sunday evening is anybody's guess, since I never attend that one. Contemporary in quotes because they are mostly 70s folks who haven't been contemporary in some years.

    I know this gets into the Scholastic mindset of counting things, and I don't want to belabor this. In the west there is a tendency to count, measure, and catalog things that the east doesn't share. For example, Pope Francis mentioned, when offered a listing of X number of rosaries, etc. said for him, "Why didn't they just say they were praying for me", instead of all the counting. I understand exactly what he meant. Is there some merit to saying more masses and doing them less well?

    I would rather see a three-hour-long liturgy on Sunday done magnificently, than a hurry-up-get-it-over with recited mass. It wasn't any better before Vatican II, since I witnessed any number of 30-minute liturgies with the priest racing through the mass at breakneck speed. In fact, some of the local priests used to compete to see who could say the fastest mass. I know it is my eastern perspective behind this, but I would rather see fewer liturgies done better. Bring on the high mass and do it extremely well. If it means cancelling a few low masses, so what?
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • MHIMHI
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  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    Like Mary Ann, Chonak's view is mine as well. Yes, low Masses should certainly be allowed, but also, it should be kept in mind that they are not ideal.

    Certainly, the low Mass has it's purpose: the private Mass. But for public Masses, we should really try to make as many as possible sung Masses.

    Bring on the high mass and do it extremely well. If it means cancelling a few low masses, so what?


    Yes.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    Aw, yes, those "remembrances" of things which may or may not have occurred as we now "remember" them fifty years later.

    Many folks even have nostalgia for such things which may or may not have occurred.

    Question: how does one "remember" priests celebrating Mass "at a breakneck speed" when almost everything in those days was -- inaudible?

    And a second question. Why all this reference to "high Mass" and "low Mass" and "solemn Mass," etc.? The "EF" is not the normative Mass these days, it is the "extraordinary" form. The OF does not have the distinctions used for pre-conciliar Masses. Music is normative at all OF Masses, according to the principle of progressive solemnity.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    Question: how does one "remember" priests celebrating Mass "at a breakneck speed" when almost everything in those days was -- inaudible?


    I was there, and had mastered the art of time-telling quite well. The clock did not lie. Secondly, much to the chagrin of some friends, I rarely forget anything.

    Progressive solemnity is good, if we ever decide to follow the concept. Some do, many don't.

    Postscript: 30-minute-masses. You know, we had some rotten priests back then, too. That is not a post-Vatican II thing.
  • MHIMHI
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    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • MHIMHI
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    Thanked by 2JulieColl Felicity
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Progressive solemnity


    It's important to remember which one of those words is the key to the concept, and which is a modifier.

    (Just sayin'.)

    While some of the explicit details of pre-V2 "Low, High, Solemn, Sung, Read" rules/concepts are defunct (in the OF), it seems to me that, in principle, there is an application.

    Most (many? some?) parishes have one Mass that is clearly "the main one" and a bunch of others that aren't as important or well attended. It's the practices at THAT Mass (for example) that are "normative" when the whole parish celebrates combined Masses (such as at Christmas or Easter).

    THAT Mass should not be the OF-equivalent of a Low Mass. (And there is an OF-equivalent, whether it exists in legislation or not.)
  • ronkrisman
    Posts: 1,394
    @Adam: I cannot agree with your interpretation of Musicam sacram. The normative nature of musical liturgy does not apply to the principal Sunday Mass. It applies to all Masses.

    I have been a priest for 40 years and I have never presided at a Mass where nothing was sung. Even when I am visiting a parish for the first time at a weekday Mass (where I am substituting for the regular priest) I lead a sung alleluia and always chant the "per ipsum" before the great Amen. I TRY to get in a sung sanctus; sometimes I am not successful in parishes that never do that a weekday Masses and someone or several people cut me off before I can begin.
    Thanked by 2Gavin hilluminar
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    But you are trying to improve liturgy, that's the thing that counts!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    With a small congregation, say that of an Eastern Catholic church, it may work fine to have few liturgies: but with a larger one, it will be necessary to make greater provision.


    Of course you do have to make provision for your own parish. However, what I typically see is a building that seats, say 700? There is one mass with 50 in attendance, another mass with 250, and another with 200. Why not have one grand, well-done mass instead?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I cannot agree with your interpretation of Musicam sacram.

    Which part of it?

    The normative nature of musical liturgy does not apply to the principal Sunday Mass. It applies to all Masses.

    True, from a Legislative Standpoint.

    I'm just addressing (my opinion on) a practical issue. If you consider every (legitimate) option for the OF Mass you could shape a Mass that is relatively "High" on the solemnity scale or one that is relatively "Low," or something in between. It's my opinion that the most-solemn approach is "normative" (or, at least, "preferred") and that (to the extent possible) this should be how (at the very least) the biggest, most well-attended, best advertised regularly-scheduled Sunday Mass should be implemented. It would be EVEN BETTER if every Mass was that way, but the energy and expense of this might be too much, or there might be other compelling reasons to offer "less solemn" celebrations.

    This has to do not with what I think the "rules" are, but what I think is the best approach in an "average" parish (to the extant my experience of Catholic suburban parishes is "average.")