Does your choir have a name?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    "My" choir is called the St......"Senior Choir." I really dislike that name. I would like to give our choir a new name. We are not the Junior Choir, though I have kids in my choir younger than those in the Junior Choir. My husband thinks I should concentrate on singing and leave well enough alone... but I still don't like "Senior Choir." Thoughts?
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    What's wrong with "St. So-and-So's Parish Choir"?
    Thanked by 2canadash cesarfranck
  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    The eight (!) choirs at St. John Cantius parish in Chicago have names; maybe the list will prompt some ideas:
    Choirs of St. John Cantius
    Thanked by 3canadash theloniouslopez johnpb
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Mark: "Parish" is better than "Senior"!

    That is fantastic Scott!
    Thanked by 1Jes
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    When I became DM of our then one parish in '93, I simply put the "type" of group and then the parish name: Schola St. Mary's/Ensemble St. Mary's/Coro de Santa Maria, etc.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Contemporary Choir (Ensemble) - Group that sings music from 20-30 years ago,

    Traditional Choir - In a Catholic Church, a group that sings mostly Protestant Hymns from 100 years ago

    Schola Cantorum - "School for Singers" - A small choir of singers who definitely do NOT need to be taught how to sing.
    Thanked by 11Gavin Aaron CHGiffen Earl_Grey Mark Husey barreltone Andrew_Malton theloniouslopez Casavant Organist WGS GregoryWeber
  • ElizabethS
    Posts: 47
    We wanted something that had kind of a "ring" to it, so to speak, so we ended up choosing "The Sarto Schola" after Pius X. We're still largely known to the parish, though, as "St. (fill in the blank) adult choir".
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    Schola . . . do NOT need to be taught

    Interesting (etymologically speaking, at least).
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    etymologically


    Of course, my post above was just being funny.

    But, as I understand it, "schola" wasn't primarily an academic word originally. IIRC, the earliest use of the word "schola" was a small, specialized military contingent. "School of Fish" seems to retain this earlier meaning of "specialized group." I believe (though am by no means sure) that our idea of "school / schola" as a place of learning develops out of the "schola cantorum" specifically, as they became centers for the creation, accumulation, and distribution of learning.
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    The Greek root σχολή apparently means "leisure," and thus in Latin came to mean the employment of leisure, which was study. The "school" in "school of fish" comes through Dutch from an Old Teutonic root meaning "troop, multitude, division," and is unrelated (though it is connected to "shoal").
    Thanked by 2gregp GregoryWeber
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    root meaning "troop, multitude, division," and is unrelated


    that seems... unlikely
    (etymonline probably hasn't read Christopher Page's book :) )
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    the drinking classes


    My maternal grandfather is from Missouri, and that branch of the family chronicle basically stops with him, as he left home to join the Navy at an early age and never looked back and didn't much talk about.

    Based on the time and place, I've always imagine they were sharecroppers. When I asked my mother what they did, her answer was "they drank."
    Thanked by 1JulieColl
  • TheUbiquitous
    Posts: 70
    St. Blaise Schola Cantorum

    (St. Blaise is the patron against throat ailments, remember.)
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen veromary hilluminar
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    I recall reading some years ago that the 'school' in 'school of fish' is actually meant to be, and was at some time in the past, 'a shoal of fish', which may make more sense as a term of venery (as in 'a croak of frogs' or a 'wisdom of owls', 'a hiss of vipers', etc.). Interesting, though, MT's etymological note above.

    As for naming choirs: I agree with the above who suggest, merely, St _____'s Parish Choir. (Do be sure to use the possessive apostrophe... Anglicans get this right, Lutherans get this right... even Methodists and Presbyterians do... but Catholics [of all people], in blitheful ignorance (or contemporaneous cuteness), seem to have abandoned it.)
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • gregpgregp
    Posts: 632
    I don't know very much Old English, but I do recall there being a definite relationship between English words borrowed or cognate with Old Norse and displaying that Sk/Sh pairing.

    E.G.; skirt/shirt, skiff/skipper/ship/(Ger. Schiff)

    So the school/shoal pairing makes sense to me.
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Do be sure to use the possessive apostrophe... Anglicans get this right, Lutherans get this right... even Methodists and Presbyterians do... but Catholics [of all people], in blitheful ignorance (or contemporaneous cuteness), seem to have abandoned it.


    I've always wondered about this. Is the possessive of the patron's name used in Latin in official Church documents referring to specific churches or cathedrals - or merely using the patron's name as an adjective?
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    As for naming choirs: I agree with the above who suggest, merely, St _____'s Parish Choir. (Do be sure to use the possessive apostrophe... Anglicans get this right, Lutherans get this right... even Methodists and Presbyterians do... but Catholics [of all people], in blitheful ignorance (or contemporaneous cuteness), seem to have abandoned it.)


    OK, so if your parish name ends in "s," it would read: St. Agnes' Parish Choir instead of The St. Agnes Parish Choir?

    Thanks for the great suggestions. This gives me a lot to think about.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Do be sure to use the possessive apostrophe... Anglicans get this right, Lutherans get this right... even Methodists and Presbyterians do...

    Really? Really? I played at St. John Lutheran Church, and I sang at St. Mark Lutheran Church. One church was LCMS, the other ELCA.

    Oh, and what about Christ Episcopal Church?

    Added: And I just check our local St. Pat's (as it is affectionately known). It's St. Patrick Church, or St. Patrick Parish. No apostrophe. Hmm.
  • bkenney27bkenney27
    Posts: 444
    I agree with the apostrophe, but also second the curiosity about the official documents.

    However, my patron has a title so we are the "St. John the Baptist Parish Choir," no possessive.
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Adding a few more (Catholic) churches ... apparently of non-apostrophic succession:

    St. Agnes Catholic Church (St. Paul, MN)
    Saint Thomas More Catholic Church (St. Paul, MN)
    Saint Olaf Catholic Church (Minneapolis, MN)
    St. Lawrence Catholic Church (Minneapolis, MN)
    St. Joan of Arc Catholic Church (Minneapolis, MN)
    St. Albert the Great Catholic Church (Minneapolis, MN)
    St. Francis Cabrini Catholic Church (Minneapolis, MN)
    St. Matthew Catholic Church (Charlotte, NC)
    St. Matthew Catholic Church (San Antonio, TX), but the building says St. Matthews
    St. Matthew Catholic Church (Hillsboro, OR)
    St. Matthew Catholic Church (Virginia Beach, VA)
    St. Mark Roman Catholic Church (Wilmington, NC)
    St. Mark Catholic Church (Vienna, VA)
    St. Mark Catholic Church (El Paso, TX)
    St. Mark Catholic Church (Gonzales, LA)

    Thanked by 1Mark Husey
  • MarkThompson
    Posts: 768
    that seems... unlikely
    (etymonline probably hasn't read Christopher Page's book :) )

    I wasn't reading etymonline, I was reading the OED. Actually, it is very direct, saying, anent school-qua-learning-place, "The OE. scolu troop (see shoal)"--the word from which school-of-fish comes--"which is often confused with this word, is certainly unconnected."
    Thanked by 1Adam Wood
  • Priestboi
    Posts: 155
    Naming a choir is half the fun. Get some input from your members. A Latin name is always fun or a moment in the life of Jesus or Mary etc.

    One group I had was called Out of Egypt (Our diocese patron is Our Lady of the flight into Egypt) and correlates with "out of Egypt I called my son" etc. It was a little cheeky because I was trying to "come out" of the style of music (Egypt) we were used to - Im such a nerd!.

    In your case themes of sacrifice, or themes present in the life of st Agnes, or themes relating to the Lamb of God perhaps...
    Thanked by 2canadash GregoryWeber
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    My choir is called "Towarzystwo spiewakow Imie Moniuszki pad opieka Swiety Cecilij" roughly translated as "The [Stanislaus] Moniuszko Choral (literally 'singing') Society, under the Patronage of Saint Cecilia"; though we are usually just called the "St Cecilia Choir".
    Thanked by 1donr
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    In Church documents and Latin the genetive, or possessive, case is used.

    Yes, a name ending in 's', such as St Agnes, would have St Agnes' for the possessive. Some people make the mistake of adding an 's' or an 'es' to possessivatise names... such as 'Charles's harpsichord', or 'the Jones's cottage' ... this is incorrect.

    As for more complicated patronymics, it is customary to use the preposition 'of' to indicate the possessive case... as in The Church of St John the Divine, or Church of the Most Holy Trinity, The Church of St John the Baptist, etc.

    This is not an idle, nit-picking, matter. Catholic churches (by and large) have given saints as their patrons; so to omit the possessive construction is to leave the impression that the parish is merely named AFTER said saint (and is, then, probably not Catholic). Many Protestants get this right. It is rather disappointing that large numbers of Catholics are oblivious to it. But then, most of them don't even celebrate their patronal feast day, which has the rank of 'solemnity' for that parish, and which should be marked by a glorious mass with all possible solemnities, followed by a parish banquet.

    As CHG intimates: we certainly want to be sure of our apostrophic succession!

    (I should imagine that one would have to pass a pretty stiff audition to get into Salieri's
    Towarzystwo spiewakow Imie Moniuszki pad opieka Swiety Celilij!)
    Thanked by 4Gavin CHGiffen Salieri GregoryWeber
  • R J StoveR J Stove
    Posts: 302
    The choir at Melbourne's main diocesan-Latin-Mass parish, St. Aloysius' at Caulfield, is known as Psallamus. I won't even attempt to pair up Psallamus with an apostrophe.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • Ambrosius
    Posts: 49
    Yes, a name ending in 's', such as St Agnes, would have St Agnes' for the possessive. Some people make the mistake of adding an 's' or an 'es' to possessivatise names... such as 'Charles's harpsichord', or 'the Jones's cottage' ... this is incorrect.


    Er, not so fast! Fowler has: 'Use the possessive 's for the possessive case in English names and surnames whenever possible: i.e. in all monosyllables and disyllables, and in longer words accented on the penult, as Burns's, Charles's, Cousins's, Dickens's, Hicks,'s, St James's Square, Thomas's, Zacharas's. It is customary, however, to omit the final 's when the last syllable of the name is pronounced /-IZ/, as is Bridges', Moses'. Jesus' is an accaptable liturgical archaism.' (And for Classical names - Herodotus' - and French names used in English, Fowler suggests that different conventions apply.) Complicated, isn't it?
    Thanked by 1GregoryWeber
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Soo... um... what MHI is saying is that the French get it wrong, too??! (I alway wondered why they, of all people, did!

    The resourceful ecclesiasticalist will find ways to solve this problem, no matter how possessive resistant a name may seem to be: St Mary Magdalen's by the Sea, The Church of St Charles Barromeo, Church of the Holy Family,
    Sts Cosmos and Damian's, or Church of Sts Cosmos and Damian

    To be seen as unequivocably Catholic one needs to make it clear as day that Thomas Becket is the Patron of St Thomas Becket's Church, or the Church of St Thomas Becket.
    St Thomas Becket Church is a mere 'named after', not a patron who 'looks after', and whose prayers are sought after, whose aid is lent.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    I always wondered where people got their incorrect usages.
    Now I know. It was from Fouler.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 762
    We have the St. Jude Schola, for the shrine at our parish church. Also, he's the patron saint of desperate cases.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    We have St. Mark UMC, St. Luke UMC, and on and on. Methodists do it, too. It isn't just a Catholic thing. I wonder if the s' ending will disappear as archaic, since English does change over time. Forsooth!
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    Our choirs used to be called "The Contemporary Choir," "The Sanctuary Choir," and "The Vigil Choir." Three years ago when we revamped the music program, the three choirs that now exist were named after saints: St. Cecilia (mixed/polyphonic), St. Ambrose (chant propers), St. Dominic Savio (trebles). (FWIW, the latter choirs do not resemble the former in members and repertoire.)

    We did have an additional choir, named for the parish (St. Elizabeth Ann Seton), but membership waned and it doesn't exist anymore..
  • Mark HuseyMark Husey
    Posts: 192
    Saint Thomas Church, New York. (Episcopal)
    All Saints' Episcopal Church, Princeton

    No consistency there.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    No consistency there.

    THIS.

    St. John the Baptist Parish

    The church my family attended when I was VERY young (not the one I usually refer to as the parish I grew up in) had the same patron. It was often referred to as "St. John's, the Baptist-Catholic Church."
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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    Thanked by 2CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn
  • leon.griesbach
    Posts: 32
    large mixed voice ensemble: Cathedral Cappella Musica
    Schola: Cathedral Schola Cantorum
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    I know someone who talks about "St. John's Vianney" church!


    Pardon me if I've mentioned this before, but in high school some of my friends attended a parish, where the choice and arragement of typefaces on the signboard caused one to read the name as

    St. Bede
    The Venerable Parish
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  • ScottKChicago
    Posts: 349
    I used to belong to an All Saints Episcopal Church; if the lack of apostrophe were questioned, we could always say the parish was named after the holy day, not the saints themselves. :) Now I'm in a Church of the Ascension that was dedicated under the patronage of St. Michael the Archangel; the big room that was the original "St. Faith's Chapel" is now "St. Michael's Hall." So there's our apostrophe.

    When I lived near Lansing, Michigan, I always thought its St. Mary Cathedral lacked an apostrophe due to someone's agenda of getting rid of possessives: "It's not St. Mary's Cathedral, it's God's..." or some such. It always sounded fussy to me. St. Mary's Cathedral sounds right and proper.
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    Can forum discussions ever stay on topic here? lol!
    Thanked by 2MHI Mark Husey
  • MHIMHI
    Posts: 324
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    Thanked by 3Gavin Adam Wood CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    We ARE on topic!
    Didn't you like MHI's suggestion of St Andrew's-by-the-Wardrobe for your quire?

    Actually, real life conversations frequently (and interestingly) stray from topic to topic.
    This is often enjoyable.
    Also, it is creative.
    Why should the forum be any different.
    Can you deny that (most of) the various forks in our topical roads lead to a variety of fascinating facets of the original topic?
    (Well... maybe you Could deny it... but would you want to be a spoilsport?

    Strictly, strictly on topic: how about
    St Alban's Parish Choir
    The Palestrinians
    Modal Souls
    The Neumatics
    The St Albert Singers
    The St Margaret of Scotland Choral Society
    The St Dunstan Chorale
    Cantoris Dei
    Polyphony
    Cantus Firmus
    Chant de Joie
    Cantus Planus (for a schola only)
    The Ninth Mode
    The Crotchety Choristers

    Some of the above are more serious than others.
    I vote for number one.
    It is a challenge, otherwise, to invent a name that doesn't obscure the choir's most important function: that of service at parish liturgy.
    This is the raison d'etre.




    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    ...
    Cantoris Dei
    Polyphony
    Cantus Firmus
    ...

    I don't know about Cantus Firmus, but I know of a few choirs that could be called "Cantus Infirmus."
    Thanked by 3canadash M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Yes, JPAL -
    The 'Cantus Infirmus' are the ones I had in mind who sing in the 'Ninth Mode'.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen jpal
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    MJO:

    The Neumatics . . . sounds like a pop group from the '50s.

    As for audition requirements, all new singers must be able to

    1: Be able to tie one's own shoes unassisted.
    2: Cope with the consumption of large quantities of G&Ts.
    3: Sight sing the Gradual for the Second Sunday of Christmas from the Recto Tono Propers, simultaneously sight transposing to the key of F-flat.
    4: Sight sing Gregory Norbet's "All I ask of you" in neums (from the Chartres tradition) in campo aperto.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,415
    Actually, I had thought that The Neumatics might be good name for a schola.... they could, though, get confused with the Neurotics

    Another schola could be called In Campo Aperto, or The Adiastematics. Their notes are 'all over the place'...
    Then, there are the Torculeans....... .... but this is all silly, isn't it!

    Just call it St Dunstan's (insert you own saint) Parish Choir - there is nothing finer than this.
    Thanked by 2Gavin CHGiffen
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I've considered Neumatics before!

    Call me old-fashioned (or order me one...), but I prefer "St. Patron's Choir". I like names to just say what they are and be done with it.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 762
    I prefer "St. Patron's Choir"


    That works where the choir definitely belongs to the parish. If it doesn't, but happens to sing there (and maybe has done so for some time), then matters are a little different.
    Thanked by 1Gavin
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 762
    Speaking of apostrophes and that lovely Wren church with the funny name: its choir is "The Girls’ Choir of St Andrew-by-the-Wardrobe".
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