So, it would seem...

Impatience in the pursuit of liturgical ideals is no virtue, and patience in dealing with the liturgically mundane is no vice.

(For the record, count me among the impatient!)

I remember when I was at another church and was implementing changes (that the new priest had asked me to implement) and got a lot of flak for it. A lady said to me "It just doesn't feel like my church anymore". I guess I was using the same repertoire they were used to, just accompaniment style (organ instead of praise combo or just piano) that they weren't used to. I seem to remember something, I think it's in SttL, that it's not a good principle to come in and rip the liturgical rug out from under a faith community. If they have their traditions "all things being equal", they're to be respected. What Jeffrey has very cleverly done, over the course of a couple years, is establish a new tradition. It's hard to undo traditions without stepping on toes, but from everything he write, he seems to have come up with a relatively painless (except for him, maybe) way of transitioning into a different space.

What gets me is to hear how the “Vatican II changes” were implemented in at least some places: people came to Mass one weekend and got their familiar low Mass, and the next weekend the communion rail was gone, and the priest faced the assembly and spoke in English/ The explanations offered were scant at best.

Now, many of us are eager to implement changes of a much smaller magnitude (does anyone here advocate for fully Latin liturgy in normal parishes on a regular basis?), and what do we constantly hear? “Go slowly.”

My cynical side says, “yeah, go slowly so that ‘bigger fish’ will come up and effectively forestall any intended changes.”

It's been said to death before: I'm young, inexperienced, offensive, and uncaring. But I don't see David's narrow view that "if people complain about no change, surely they'll freak out over massive change!" I always said that if people are going to be angry anyway (usually because I'm not Polish or some rumor started by a friend of the previous organist) I'll give them something to be angry about. I'm not going to play the pity game against David or anyone here, but my last job was so very depressing at times, and that without any friends in the area. It seems like many of you feel the same, but for what? A minor victory you got (singing 2 hymns with organ at a Mass instead of 1) while someone else got a major victory against you? Again, people will complain, and you will feel bad. So why let that happen over nothing?

I see too many people on here misstating our goals. Our goal is NOT to make people like sacred music. Let me just throw this out there: we like it because we're geeks. Our goal should be to make people EXPECT it. You don't get that attitude by making it a thing "let's allow this once a year and the other times do the exact opposite. Maybe in a few years we can do it twice!" I can say with confidence that the only music inappropriate to the Mass that I ever did on Sundays at my last parish was "On This Day O Beautiful Mother". People still asked for Glory & Praise back, but they did it with decreasing frequency. The main complaint was "we don't know these hymns", which we all know is code for "we don't want to learn these hymns". And when people complained, I ALWAYS said to them "I will NOT argue with you about whether or not we should have Latin or chant. We MUST. I would love, however, to dialog with you as to how much fulfills the Church's mandate while not being above people's heads and such." Unsurprisingly, asking people for solutions shot them down...

I'm not saying make a complete, unexplained conversion of your musical praxis. There was still PLENTY I wanted to accomplish at my last church. But we don't need to SNEAK things in, we need to make changes and give people time to ADJUST. Fr. Z posted about my former church making a short change to ad orientem. I don't want to spill the beans on things that aren't the business of anyone here, but I would guess that will NOT be welcome. I'm sure my former boss will be swarmed with complaints, and I can name people in the parish who will likely leave because he faced the altar for two weeks (and then the table goes back). But still celebrating Mass ad orientem is the RIGHT thing to do, and there may yet be positive fruit out of all that. And Fr would not be in a position to do that if he had a music director who was afraid of progress.

Finally, let me mention that he finished his sermon series (although it's not online) with a sermon on how bad music and Mass facing the people are destructive to the focus of the liturgy. And a guitar player in the Saturday folk group, who was involved in a "strike" before I got there, came to him after Mass and said "Father, I've been reading about Vatican 2 and I'm surprised how much in the Mass as most people do it isn't supposed to be there. Like that ad orientem thing." He didn't hang up his guitar and lead a chant schola, but he's learning DUE TO the constant pressure that Fr and I had applied.

That's my two cents. I recognize others have different views, and I respect that. However, I find that being overly cautious is usually unwarranted and some real progress can be made if we just DO things.

Gavin, you're a very interesting guy. I don't always agree with you, but I hope you make it to the Colloquium next year so everyone can meet you.

It makes me wonder why

Well, I do kind of agree with Gavin on the rather thankless task of slowing down the train in the wrong direction. I might add that one should develop some good people skills to make the job easier (or possible). Lay the groundwork before moving. If you start the ship in motion to correct course, make sure you have the 1st and 2nd mates in agreement. Here I mean the pastor, deacon(s), and other lay leaders. Not all will want to go along with you, but you need to learn the game that every politician knows -- build consensus groups so that you are not all alone. You may have to live with G&P music for a while during this period, but if you want the changes to happen and to stick, it's necessary. For me, it was liturgy committee. Every month I brought in something to make them think. No one else was ambitious enough to counter my "propaganda" so I was well along the way in changing the hearts of the "movers" of the parish. I had to leave for my present academic job before the process was complete, but I felt good about where we were going. During those 2 years, I changed almost nothing except my expectations for the choir. That's another story, but also a positive one. BTW I started up a youth group with pop music for the monthly youth Mass to cover my flanks, but I never let them do anything that was not appropriate for Mass (well, text-wise at least).

I wonder why some people want to go so fast. I expect there will be contemporary group for a long long time, at least in my parish. I respect for their devotion and enthusiasm. But I also believe someday, maybe not in my life time, they will drop their guitar and tambourines, join our schola and sing chants. Maybe I'm not ambitious as some people here, but I plant the seeds, and I'm happy with that. I might see something grow out of my planting, which I already witnessed, and I'll do my best with eveything I have to make them grow, but at the same time, I don't really plan to see the fruits. I do my best and the rest of it is in God's hand. As Mother Teresa says do all your work with love ( I believe she meant love of people.)
Every parish is different. And I know my parish people are not ready for any drastic changes, not even our priests. Would you give solid food to a baby when he is not ready?(maybe you guys don't understand this very well :) Even if you had a best nutritious food, you know he cannot digest, you have to wait and help him to get ready. Just pushing it is not gonna work. Again, every parish situation is different. And I feel that many good musicians here are very stressed and frustrated. I hope we don't loose them too soon.

Forgive me if I don't see it, but in my case I don't think the issue is that I'm trying to move things along too quickly. The issue is that despite the few little things I've tried, nothing is moving at all. Nothing. Nada. Meanwhile, in the course of the last two years the contemporary ensemble has been given all but free reign, carte blanche. They're growing by leaps and bounds. I've been told that we don't own enough sound equipment or music stands to accommodate them all. And more want to join. Meanwhile the 13 or 14 folks who have been hanging on by their fingernails in the parish adult choir feel like they're not wanted or appreciated. I've been told that we can't change a single aspect of the 9 AM Mass, not one note, hymn or acclamation, without requiring a complete re-evaluation of the entire catechetical emphasis and liturgical understanding of the whole parish, all 11,000 of them. To introduce the entrance antiphon in place of the opening hymn at 9 AM will require that the entire liturgy staff be on board. This includes the person in charge of sacramental prep who seems to have unbridled control over the liturgy committee, and whose liturgical and catechetical sensibilities are firmly rooted in the "spirit of Vatican II," to the point that the instant the issue of versus populum as against ad orientem is raised, even in casual conversation, she is literally provoked to turn her back and walk away, proclaiming over her shoulder, "I can't talk about this."

Can you imagine if Father tried to put a few extra candles or a crucifix on the altar? Why, if the sac prep doyenne is to be believed, there'd be rioting in the parking lot. I can do nothing, nothing, without requiring a monumental discussion and consensus from everyone from her to the school cook.

The obvious answer is that I must, as the disciples were instructed, leave the town, knocking the dust from my sandals at the gates as I leave. But, has anyone else had to deal with this, to this extreme? I honestly feel like I've slipped into some unreal, nightmarish realization of everything that is completely in keeping with all that was wrong, nay evil, about the reforms of the Second Vatican Council.

Is it time for me to write letters to the archdiocese? Rome? Remember, I live in the epicenter and birthplace of Haugen, Haas and Joncas. The Rev. Jan Michael Joncas has presided at Masses at our church. He verges on beatification even now, to hear some folk in the Twin Cities speak of him. David Haas operates his Music Ministry Alive program right here, producing little disciples every summer who then, often with the full backing of their parents, go back to their parishes and insist that Haas' way is so much better than anything else going. Haugen gives workshops, keynotes and concerts regularly. Is this juggernaut too much for one person to fight against? Apart from St. Agnes, St. Louis King of France and Nativity of Mary, I know of no other Catholic parish in the greater Twin Cities area where the "season of silliness" hasn't impacted some element of the music ministry.

I keep hoping that someone will kidnap me in the middle of the night and take me to a little room where a man in all black, a bald head and pince nez sunglasses will offer me the "blue pill or the red pill" and that I'll wake up having been rescued from the Matrix.

David, having read your saga over the course of the past few weeks, it sounds rather hopeless. The only time I ever experienced anything quite so discouraging and unstoppable was for one miserable semester in graduate school, when my wife and I, newly married, romped off into what we thought were well-paid grad assistant positions in roles we knew very well. Your use of the word "evil" is a good descriptior for what we experienced: we had been deceived, of course, by the gentlemen in charge and the whole program was just completely insane, with no desire for learning, no interest in improvement, no desire for new ideas, nothing at all---I was expected to just stand there and observe bad music-making with no comment whatever. Evil and insane--a lunatic asylum staffed by madmen.

We prayed very hard for several months, and the Lord provided a miraculous way out, and we took it. Today, three years later, we're still happily married with a young son, and I'm in a new job, teaching music at an orthodox parish where sacred music is gaining ground. Why does this matter to you? It may not, but I wanted to give you a little hope. As much as it often seems like a mere platitude, genuine and earnest prayer is often the only lasting solution to our problems, temporal and spiritual (and those two spheres often seem inextricably linked). I certainly know that if I hadn't had such a negative experience and wanted to leave grad school, my career course would have stayed along my original plans, and my life would be drastically different today. I certainly would NOT be involved with the beautiful treasury of sacred music, and we would not have our beautiful young son. I remember mentioning a similar wish to my wife about the Matrix scenario when we were going through that horrible time. I won't presume to offer advice about the job, but I can certainly recommend the benefits of deep and patient prayer. Best wishes, and you'll be in my prayers.

The story reminds me of something I've been thinking about for a long time: how utterly and complete cut off from current trends are the "contemporary music" people. It's like they haven't read anything at all, and don't care to. The Pope doesn't matter. The GIRM doesn't matter. The long history of music in Church doesn't matter. The fact that 1000 years of the greatest musical treasures are going unheard doesn't matter. The responsibilities to the larger Church and the faith do no matter. They would instead prefer to remain in a state of blissful ignorance about all of this and just continue to sing 1970s standards every week until the end of time. I know that this description doesn't apply to all of them, but it characterizes many I've known. Really it is a problem of responsibility: they just don't feel that they have any beyond their week-to-week performance opportunity. I really don't see much hope in ever shaking these people from their blindness, and by "these people" I mean parish musicians who are paid and have been doing this for two to three decades, and see no reason to learn or improve what they are doing or make it part of a bigger picture of anything outside the parish walls. It really does boggle the mind.

Jan,

Well, that's as may be, but ISTM that if people are hungering for greater reverence at Mass, and the noisy, aging hippie minority is controlling things, and the collections are suffering anyways (much to the puzzlement of the leadership), it certainly couldn't hurt to give it a try, now could it?

Besides, I know from my own personal experience while on vacation that while attending Mass with a really dreadful crooning cantor and lounge-style pianist and a rather heterodox "Fr. Nice Guy" priest celebrant, I put a dollar in the basket. The next weekend, I had an opportunity to attend an FSSP chapel (with no music) and was so refreshed by the reverence and solid preaching of the priest, I plunked down a 5-spot.

Yep, you're right. Money talks. But what language?

>>We are planning on singing the Arvo Part Berlinner Messe (in Latin, of course) and now don't know how to describe it. In the terms of Catholic Contemporary Music is it POST-Contemporary?

Cantor,

I'm not so sure that refusing to sing is an objective sin. In fact, ISTM that to think so sort of plays into the very "spirit of Vatican II" mindset that's permitted much of the awful music we deal with to be introduced into the Mass in the first place, all in the name of ensuring "full, active and conscious participation of all."

I actually feel that, just as with other aspects of our lives wherein not everyone is at the same depth of spiritual maturity or capable of engaging themselves in the same disciplines of prayer, not everyone is capable of entering into the exercise and discipline of singing in the liturgy. We ask the saints to intercede for us in those things that we are ourselves unable to do, or find difficult. Why then is it a necessarily universal truism that all people at all times and in all places given their various dispositions and conditions should be capable of singing?

I think the universal church and her music should be just that. If we can't participate in the Mass, the communion of saints and the angels are in attendance as well, with our guardian angels and patrons carrying us spiritually during those times when we can't seem to "pull it off" ourselves. Perhaps my theology on this is shaky, but ISTM that I've heard this described before.

Noel,
Are you doing the Part at Sunday Mass?
C

Well, the best answer I can give you is: "I need this job, I need the benefits." so the answer is no.

We anticipate this for a Mass, by invitation, that explores liturgical music.

Noel, let me say after visiting your ministry website a few weeks back, I have no doubt your philosophy and praxis will ensure your stay and influence.
Regarding this thread's overall topic of moving the agenda along...
Dealing with all parish political factions and personnel dramas is less problematic, I believe, if you remain conversant and pliant when dealing with any involved party who decides to cross your path; be it the pastor, the egocentric ensemble guy, a brainwashed DRE or cookie cutter parochial school teachers, the kid who wants "Awesome God" played every week or the lady who misses the quiet Mass- one's ability to win friends and influence people has more to do with whether they trust that you are both transparently honest and sincere while charitable, accepting/tolerant of their random and often ridiculous preferences, and then can calmly and systematically point them back to the Roman Catholic Church. The person most in need of that trusting, helping hand is generally the pastor; and they are loathe to alter whatever status quo they've carried in their psychological kit bag for years.
Most priests I've known are to some extent in great need of an attitude adjustment (read "ass kicking.") However, they whom I've known and still work with keep some measure of cloistered emotional distance from those DMs among us who have demonstrated both superior knowledge and authentic, excellent practice in our duties. And, as I've said a thousand times (like Gavin) one has to stay put in one's tenure to achieve a sort of universal parish credibility among all interest parties besides the check-signing cleric. But, once one has acquired that credibility and trust, then it becomes time to take some risks and push the envelope; let key people know that this period of re-adjustment is not some reactionary fad. Like MJB said in her article a year ago, everyone is used to the latest change, whether in personnel or ritual approach and style. They'll give it the same "ho hum, we can ignore this too" if it's didactically shoved in front of them.
I'm working via Musica Sacram, first with the clerics once I can get Mister Mister to agree to a corporate pow wow; once I lay out the underlying principles that provide a clear understanding of the canons to them, they cannot dismiss their import by claiming ignorance anymore. Once they grasp how the mere act of trying to cant a collect, no matter how gifted or bereft of singing talent they possess, speaks with much more volume than any cult of personality, then you have the foundation for a serious dialogue. That opens up to ancillary stuff like ad orientem and the Benedictine altar, etc. If that dialogue bears fruit on Sunday through their unique (and to the public) enhanced role as presiders, then you should be able to engage one's musical peers in a more serious discussion that's not centered around a false status quo.
At least, that's what I'm aiming for at my place. It's never easy and it's seldom that paradigms change on a dime just because they happen to be correct or "authentic."
In a way, I almost think one has to go about one's "moving and shaking" like a Soprano; the wise guy, black hand type, not the divas. I know that betrays my "transparency" credo; but if in my heart I have the the wisdom of the Sacred Heart's love and compassion for His Bride, okay I'll work quietly in the shadows in order to expose the Light.

Cantor,

Thank you for your clarification.

You're right, I do agree with you that obstinacy is a serious problem (and a sin). Yesterday's readings talked about proper fraternal correction, which is something that I think gets glossed over on a regular basis.

By that same token, you would agree, would you not, that not everyone is capable of singing, even an "amen," if their soul is in a state of dryness. One of the beautiful aspects of our Faith is that when we are in those dry times, we have the broader church to carry us. I was simply cautioning, even within the context of a Mass celebrated with the best, purest forms of music and only asking the people to sing those parts belonging to them, to use their visibly active participation as a "gold standard" for evaluating their disposition or obstinacy is perhaps a bit harsh.

Dem' bones, dem' bones, dem.....TROMBONES!

I had an opportunity to attend an FSSP chapel (with no music) and was so refreshed by the reverence and solid preaching of the priest, I plunked down a 5-spot.

A five-spot? That and a Graduale Triplex will buy you a venti macchiato.

If you try to change the currently universal practice in one church you have to fight not only TPTB but also deal with the fact that you are making your parish different from all the others in your area. THAT is the biggest obstacle IMO.

Can be.
Our DRE, (I love the phrase "sacramental prep doyenne," by the way!,) in discussing the problem that frequently arises when she insists on forcing people to have their children baptized our particular, (and unique, I believe,) way, and they say naturally that no one requires parents to jump through those hoops at St X's, that we must just say, "well, that's the way we do it here."
When I said we would have a much stronger argument if we instead told them, that's the way the Church, (big "C",) asks us to do it and she looked both annoyed and furtive -- I realized that what we were doing was NOT part of the rubrics, or the way the Church wants the sacrament administered., (this was early in my tenure, before I was aware of how "creative" some of TPTB liked to be, and I had not done much study beyond matters that were my business as a musician.)
I have had great difficulty, even after 5 years, with the single positive change I have been able to make in all that time, using the In Paradisum as a recessional at funerals with a quirky and opinionated "funeral choir" which serves all the parishes in town.
Naturally the complaint is, Yeah? if that's what we're SUPPOSED to do, why don't we have to do it at any other parish in the area, (including the cathedral.)

I wonder why some people want to go so fast.

I think many, many, many people despair of living long enough to see any improvement. I read such thoughts in comboxes all the time. I have older choristers who I think to cheer up with news of the "oh, did you hear what Ratzinger/Ranjith/Serratelli said about....?" who sigh that they'll never see whatever it is.
And I think some of it has to do with asserting ones rights, ones freedom from someone who has no right to exert power over one.
It's the damned unfairness of it.
In the "liturgy wars" the ersatz "liberal" party likes to make big noises about someone, (Rome, that new meanie of a pastor, the silly old-fashioned chant musicians, whoever,) supposedly trying to "make" them do something, but it's a great big lie.
Most of us recognize their genuine illiberality in trying to bend us to their will.
If our parish were somehow to miraculously allow me to use a Gregorian Sanctus at one Mass this weekend, there are four parishes within walking distance and more than a dozen within a 10 minutes drive where the disgruntled could go to get their Mass of Creation fix, (not to mention waiting an hour and a half here....)
But someone who doesn't care for the Lifeteen aesthetic, or objects to being bullied into singing "Ashes" or hectored into saying the responses louder, what are their choices? how far would they have to go?
An hour's drive, that's how far. Another diocese. Another state. (They could stay in state, and go an hour and a half.)
Or they can sit through a "blend" of bad hymns, good hymns, a some psalm tones, and maybe a Palestrina motet, if we have time after the congregational communion hymn is finished and before the EM has arrived in the loft, or if the EM has a quick stride, after the hymn, after the choir receives, but before the EM makes it back to the tabernacle and all music must cease.
They can't even find a "quiet Mass." Verboten...
Don't get me wrong, I would love it if everyone had and appreciated beautiful and appropriate Liturgy, but all I'm really striving for is not being forced to endure, and in some cases provide, ugly and inappropriate Liturgy.

I just wish I had a pastor who will look at the determinedly non-singing congregation members and tell them they are supposed to sing, and if they don’t, they enter a state of objective sin. That’s my big pet peeve of late.

Careful what you wish for.... there is someone I know who will say "the Lord be with you," and if he's not pleased with the decibel level of the response will repeat, "the LORD be WITH yooooou.....?" with an I can't HEEEEAR you inflection.

I can't afford a Triplex

Not guaranteeing they'll have any now, but i bought mine a couple years ago for 25% off list through half.com, not sure everyone knows about this site.

I'll get back to you after my second Manhattan!

Spending priorities....
(I am only teasing!)

Save the Liturgy, Save the World!

Noel wrote:

I think that they should be left alone, and we need to work to find things that they will want to sing. I think that we should reduce, rather then increase, how much of the Mass they should sing.

I don’t know about the “find things they will want to sing”. Many, many Catholics I encounter do not want to sing in Latin. At all.

The variety of the Protestant service is not Catholic. Catholic is repetition, repetition, repetition. I feel that the heart of the music to be sung by the people is the Sanctus, Acclamation, Amen and Agnus Dei. Tell a Baptist Preacher that he's going to do the exact same service every week with no changes, no chance to insert his personality and charm the people, inflame them and scare them....and he would immediately envision empty offering plates and having to drive a school bus to have money to eat.

I think I agree with you here, but I am not sure I understand your point. I do agree that the people’s part should primarily be the acclamations, dialogues, and Mass Ordinary.

I'd prefer that they not sing the Alleluia or Psalm. Let the singers whom God has given voices the opportunity to sing them...and beautifully. But from a loft where they cannot be seen. And please, please cut all the microphone wires in the church that do not lead to the pulpit or the celebrant's wireless microphone.

Of course, your argument here is with the rubrics that give precedence to the ambo for the singing of the responsorial psalm. (“Built of Living Stones”, at least)

ISTM that the “response”-orial psalm is rather a silly form without the people’s sung “response”. I’m ok with this form as it stands...maybe because in my own parish, we do make it work, even with the proper responses and verses. Our congregations actually sing the brand-new response each week about as well as they sing anything.....which is to say, not nearly as well as they should, but hey.

But Gavin, what if there are people for whom external participation comes at the expense of internal contemplation? I've felt this before, this sense of not wanting to make a noise or move my mouth because I'm struck so profoundly by spiritual emotion. This happens to me especially in a tremendously beautiful liturgy. It happened to me in Portland this year. I recall that it happened once at St. Agnes in NY at a Mass at which the Machaut Missa Notre Dame was sung. I was awe struck and completely silenced by it, to the point that I couldn't even think of vocalizing responses. I just wanted to pray. I really don't see what is wrong with that.

The people who stand with closed mouths when we sing in Latin, as their children join in the singing....is this an occasion of....sin?

frogman noel said:
STOP CALLING A PULPIT AN AMBO. Ambones [don't you love the plural?]

So the cantors who get up and gesticulate wildly during their performance can now be officially designated...

The Hambones in the Ambones!

G,

On the contrary, I've attended a number of NPM conventions where he either presented a keynote or a "breakout" session. I also own (purchased during my NPM days) his multi-CD series on Mystagogy in the Eucharist.