All Gather, all the time
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    This discussion was created from comments split from: What is your favorite GIA or OCP hymnal ?.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Sorry to crash this thread, but I need to vent:

    Just found out today that the pastor will be ordering Gather 3 asap and that I will be expected to follow it exclusively. Furthermore my future planning must follow the model of 70% contemporary and only 30% organ-based traditional hymnody. I must include the dates of all musical compositions on my planning sheets to prove that I am doing that. All psalm settings must be taken from the Gather psalter including weekday school Masses and all choir music must now be contemporary and "upbeat" or "uptempo". No chant. No Latin (perhaps the few titles in Gather 3 will be exempted?) and no sacred polyphony written before 1970. 10 years of hard-work slowly implementing positive change all down the toilet. I suppose I should thank the Lord that I wasn't fired; of course as soon I can find a better circumstance I will be quitting. If my family didn't depend on my income I would have quit on the spot, but my guardian angel held my tongue from saying what I was really thinking. Please pray for me!

    And no this isn't the first such quibble with the pastor, but since a few dissident catholics have continued to bark in his ear, he is willing to cater to their needs, not listen to my professional opinion and basically thumb his nose at the Church all to appease his own malformed musical and liturgical tastes and make a few people happy who don't even know their own Faith all to the detriment of the multitude of souls that will be lost now as a consequence. So much for glorifying God and sanctifying the people.
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    @ Earl Grey...No Polyphony written before 1970? Use Kevin Allen's stuff. It's all brand spankin' new.

    On another note...is anyone in your parish supportive of better music? If so, see if you can encourage them to start barking in the Pastor's ear. After all if he's going to oil the squeaky wheel...get some different wheels to squeak if you can. In the meantime...I'll keep my ears open.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    @Earl_Grey, so he's going to forbid singing the music printed in the Roman Missal? Considering that some dioceses mandated that music, that's curious.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    chonak raises a good point. What is the position of your Diocese on sacred and liturgical music?

    My prayers are with you and your family, as well as the people of your parish who will suffer because of this aribitray, ill-considered, and high-handed maneuver of your priest.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Here's what the book contains: http://www.giamusic.com/pdf/G3indexes.pdf
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Does contemporary and upbeat "choir" music even exist? I cannot imagine many of these contemporary hymns being set SATB.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Sad, but it could happen to any of us. Prayers that you get another job so great, you don't even look back on what you have left behind.
    Thanked by 3Earl_Grey Gavin IanW
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Amen, Charles.

    Lord, in your great mercy: hear our prayers.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    Simple English Propers are contemporary. Same with By Flowing Waters. Take a look towards some Anglican stiff such as the oxfors book of easy anthems.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    The ICEL chant mass for the assembly was only put together in 2010.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    No Polyphony written before 1970? Use Kevin Allen's stuff. It's all brand spankin' new.


    All of Adam Bartlett's work is recent as well, but it probably would be disqualified since it's too slow (aka reverent).

    so he's going to forbid singing the music printed in the Roman Missal? Considering that some dioceses mandated that music, that's curious.


    Since the ICEL Mass is in G3 I'm presuming it would be allowable.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    ...Of course I'll probably have to accompany it on the guitar or piano so as to not use up my 30% quota of organ accompaniments.

    I can't wait until Christmas when I have to explain to people that 70% of the time I'm not allowed to play any carols written before 1970.
  • Speaking of "Gathering" . . .

    “The primary sign of the Eucharist are (sic) people gathering together, not the bread and wine or words.” (A quote from a paper given under Fr. Frederick McManus in 1968)

    read the entire article by Monsignor Schuler

    IS THAT WHERE ALL THIS "GATHER" STUFF COMES FROM ?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Earl, bless you in your new challenge. Souls will not be put in jeopardy because of this autocrat. Rest easy.
    May I suggest an alternative strategy to our colleagues? Take the pastor's lemons and make ........ Cosmopolitans.
    First of all, because of your family, and here's hoping you have all the health benefits from the diocese as they're more valuable than salary....
    Remember heirarchy, subsidiarity. Make those two words worthless phonemes, but make your commitment to the concept real.
    Regard your boss as the in persona Christi, and then sing like Whoopi Goldberg, "I will follow him wherever he may go...." Heck, sing Sister Act arrangements ASAP for all you care. You're not sellling out, you're obedient.
    Don't just give him 70/30, give him gladly 75/25. If you're not capable personally of being Elvis or Sir Elton John, then find some substitutes with smiling faces who will constitute the new parish Praise Team and instruct and guide them to bring on the cult of personality to the max. You will survive physically as will your soul. You're being loyal, earnestly.
    Make darn sure that all your reasoned choices are as difficult for congregations with syncopations and such that only your "pro's" can manage them, and isn't that okay because the music is about "us" after all, ain't it?
    When you program one of the twelve great Catholic hymns, make sure that you perform them as would Michael W. Smith, Matt Maher, Chris Tomlin or even Bill Gaither. Lay the emotional lather on in good measure, not just to get the job done but to make sure the "feeling" of the shave is just right.
    Keep those ordo records. And also keep an extensive book on the quiet souls, some may be "heavy hitters" in the parish, who come up to you and timidly inquire "Wha' happened?" Document everything said to you in severe but unemotional detail.
    Don't play or act the stooge. Follow through because you were told, and you follow. If you're challenged, respond truly and say in all truth, "This was a cross I carried for my soul and to praise Christ. If I've failed to honor Christ through obedience to you, pastor, I pledge to serve you better in His Name." Yada.
    If he doesn't react to the cult of personality by then coming to you and wanting to talk Turkey fo' real, you'll have bought time to seek other pastures. No one has to die. YMMV
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    You can also get creative and do modern takes on classic favourites.

    "All Creatures of Our God and King" lends itself quite well to a contemporary interpretation.

    You may want to ask your pastor about making certain distinctions, because a lot of contemporary christian music is actually based on very old words, or musical motifs.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Melo, I'm afraid you are absolutely right, I just don't want to drink the cup. I actually came up with that exact strategy about a year ago, but couldn't bring myself to do it. But now, given the ultimatum, I see no other option. I can croon with the best of them and have even been known to don the Elvis suit on stage (though never in church). I even did perform the Woopi Goldberg version of Hail Holy Queen a few years back when we did a parish festival Mass where the choir combined forces with the Life Teen band. I've been compromising all along, hoping that the hint of music sacra will eventually win in the end. The dissenters don't want compromise or balance. They only want it their way all the time. I've always felt the Nuremberg defense was a cop out and I'd like to think that I'd have the courage to be a martyr rather than compromise my standards. But truth be told, I have been compromising all along. So until God places me in a parish where I can be true to myself I have no choice other than to follow orders and be the entertainer for a paying gig. I am still concerned for my own family as I don't want them attending Mass at the "Church of Nice" and I am genuinely concerned for the souls of those who are not receiving the fullness of the Faith. Further. for my own edification I feel the need to attend a Mass where I can actually worship, but that's near impossible with the all-day Sunday gig a cedar-catholic.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    For those not familiar with the Church of Nice term:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxrIjE-WNVA
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    "Don't just give him 70/30, give him gladly 75/25"

    If you're doing 4 hymns, 70/30 may be more difficult anyway...
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    Still not sure if the 70/30 split refers to titles or play time. e.g. Mystery of Faith vs a hymn?
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I can't wait until Christmas when I have to explain to people that 70% of the time I'm not allowed to play any carols written before 1970.


    THIS.
    Thanked by 2Gavin Jenny
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I presume it means "a clear majority".
  • francis
    Posts: 10,822
    E_G... hang in there dude! We are praying for you!
    Thanked by 2Earl_Grey Ben
  • BenBen
    Posts: 3,114
    I know one of the charleses did some decent gituar accompaniments for chant... you might find that style useful with something like SEP. Maybe they can post their youtube videos here?
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • jpal
    Posts: 365
    I dread the possibility of this situation at my parish (though certainly not with the current pastor). Two decades of Glory & Praise before my tenure began. Now we have the Vatican II Hymnal and people sing louder than ever (especially the ICEL chants), but a new pastor with a different vision could flip a switch and all the old folks (pun intended) would be back -- those who have not left the parish/Church are patiently awaiting release from the Babylonian captivity of the 7:30 AM "quiet" Mass. And they ARE patient...probably more patient than many on "our side" who demand immediate change.

    On the other hand, I almost welcome the opportunity as a true test of my humility and priorities. Married with one child (and more to come sometime?), I do not have the luxury of quitting just because I'm not allowed to have it my way anymore. It would be more work and truly challenge my creativity (honestly -- it's been pretty easy choosing hymns from the VII Hymnal, and propers). Truly, I may be more in touch with the musical vision of the Church than such a hypothetical future pastor; could I have the humility to put that fact beneath the pastor's authority (assuming he is not commanding me to sin)?

    E_G, thank you for sharing this. It is a good reminder for me to keep this question in my mind: how can I put aside selfish things and best be of service to my God, my family, my parish?

    In rare cases the answer might be: "Quit and find another place." More likely, it is something like "Joyfully do the best with what you have." Leo Nestor, recognizing the realities in many parishes, counselled us in his own colorful way to make the worst things shine like gold.
  • On the other hand, I almost welcome the opportunity as a true test of my humility and priorities.

    I get what you're saying, but believe me, pray that you do not undergo the test.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Ben, thanks for the nod. I think they can be found at the Cafe. And on YT at "tccovmusicministry."
    That said, I think Earl's pastor isn't at all inclined for any contradiction at this time. I think perhaps he's reacted to some sort of stimulus of late (HHFrancis/Abp.Sample...) and decided to tilt at windmills with his own crusade for AmChurch music; he literally wants to lead the singing of a new church into being where all are welcome, particularly if they agree with him.
    Humility is the only silver bullet left everyone, including EG, that and prayer.
    CCenCA
  • You certainly have my prayers Earl! I am so sorry to hear you too, are being smacked down after such dedication and commitment to turning around the music in your parish. At my former parish we had Gather II Comp, and what I found out was that the parishioners had advocated for it, before I had gotten there. Attempts to put in more liturgically appropriate music, was on deaf ears. We'll definitely pray for your situation, and hopefully you can find something more suitable that will care for your family as well!
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    One more thought-
    Isn't it a curiosity that through the PapaRatzi years the "All are welcome" folks kept chiding RotR advocates not to imperially impose our "taste" upon the "folk," to be open minded, magnanimous and inclusive? The timing and manufactored tumult of this new papacy has provided some clerics, perhaps (just sayin'), with an impetus to impose their taste upon their flocks as if they're Huey Long. What goes around...
  • hartleymartin
    Posts: 1,447
    You can get around it by using contemporary settings of traditional texts, such as the ad libitum communion antiphons. "Taste and See the Goodness of the Lord" has proven to be a popular text amongst composers, with the usual Psalm that is attached to it.
    Thanked by 2Kathy Earl_Grey
  • Best wishes in your challenges. This whole "what music is best for liturgy" is making me feel like running from it completely. In addition to being DM at my parish, I also teach music at another parish and was told today that next year I will have to rehearse their children's choir and do all the school masses (presently, their DM does the school masses). In my parish, I've finally gotten the people to be listening to, if not completely accepting of, SEP and hymnody. My responsibilities at the school for next year include going back to touchy feely masses with guitars and drums. When I suggested changing to what I've been able to implement in my own parish, I was shot down completely. So, I guess on the weekends I will maintain my dignity in ensuring sacred music is not lost, and during the week I will go back to coffee-house style masses. In the meantime, my stomach is killing me on a regular basis trying to juggle.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,509
    I'd look around for another job in the meantime. Sharpen skills, build your resume.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    Musicteacher,

    I am sorry for your trashy situation. I am not sure I understand why if they wanted touchy feely Masses, they didn't just have their own DoM do them instead as thye have in the past.
  • Scott_WScott_W
    Posts: 468
    I'd look around for another job in the meantime. Sharpen skills, build your resume.


    Yes. This feeds into my pet theory that our current musical wasteland is due to a kind of class division among musicians: ronins and retainers. Ronins (like me) have a lot of musical training and experience but make our livings in some other field. I'd dare say that most congregations have enough ronins to put together a first-rate choir, but hardly any of them are in the choir because the parish insists on sentimentalist pablum inspired by secular therapeutic culture, so the ronins either don't bother at all, or like me, moonlight elsewhere where the music is good. So what most parishes end up with is a choir of blue-haired warblers singing the usual fluff.

    Then there are the retainers. Usually the guy with the organ skills and course-work specific to liturgical music. More power to you if you can get it, but they are often treated as "the help" rather than the expert in charge; and because your livelihood is tied in to it, you accept the bargain. Thus, every Mass is like someone's wedding and the bride is paying you to play All 4 One's "I Swear" whether it is appropriate or not.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    @Scott_W: I disagree. I've been both a Ronin and a Retainer, and at least for now as a Retainer I'm treated as an expert, and deferred to for my expertise. There have been rare occasions when I've had to swallow hard and acquiesce to an otherwise unpalatable request, but they've generally been few, far-between, and to do so was not without long-term benefit to my reputation and working relationship with my pastor who actually appreciates and respects my ability to respond charitably and obediently to such requests when necessary. He tends to "bank" them and then return the favor when he sees I've got my back against the wall and need his support for something he may not completely understand or agree with.

    It's a win-win situation for me right now.

    E_G's situation is different. Clearly the pastor is doing everything in his power to hamstring and hobble an otherwise intelligent and hard-working musician (nobody lasts 10 years in a parish like the one he's in if they're not hard-working and possessing the patience of a saint. I know of what I speak, because I happen to have grown up in his diocese, and in a town right next to the parish in question . . . in fact, my sister taught in his parish's school for many years) with the likely goal of driving him out so that he can bring in someone he's already got in mind. It is both a gross violation of professional ethics, social justice (real social justice, not Kum-bah-yah social justice) and to my mind a grave moral error and sin against charity on the part of the priest, and I would tell him to his face if he asked . . . and maybe even if he didn't. Sin is sin and needs to be pointed out, especially when committed at the hands of a shepherd of souls.

    Venting aside, I've been there. It's awful, and I would point out that in cases like this one must meet cunning with cunning. Folks who do this, especially when they've secunded the priest who is either a) a useful idiot for the purpose or worse b) complicitous, will stop at nothing to drive you out, even to the point of ruining your reputation. So be very careful.

    Also, be patient, update your resume, keep your ear to the ground and above all, "Keep Calm and Carry On." If they bait you and you rise to it, you'll have a much bigger mess on your hands.

    And another piece of practical advice: if his bizarre requests came during the course of a conversation, write them down in a memo, in as much detail as you possibly can, indicating that based on the conversation (give the date and circumstances of the conversation) it is your understanding that you are to conduct your affairs in the following manner: a), b), c), and then conclude with a request for written verification that you understood the conversation correctly. In this way, with his response you have clear documentation that you are doing what he's asked. If he refuses, send a second memo or letter insisting that he provide instruction in writing, otherwise you'll proceed as you always have for the last 10 years. It may seem a bit passive/aggressive, but on the other hand you will appear perfectly reasonable in your request and his refusal will seem rather petulant and unreasonable.

    Above all, remember that God calls us to be martyrs, not masochists. (Yes, I've been talking to our friend, E_G. We really need to talk soon.)

    I'll be praying for you.
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,700
    Perhaps you could use "part" of the music from the Gather book and improve it. In example, use a modern refrain of Taste and See from the hymnal, but chant the actual verses of the Psalm in its entirety. Use a contemporary refrain for the procession, but chant the verses from the Introit instead of the written verses.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    For levity and brevity, I consider myself neither Ronin nor Retainer (I lost so many when 13), but a Samurai. In Latin, that's pronounced:
    sah-moo-rah-eeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Why did an image of John Belushi just pop into my head?

    Samurai Choir Director!
    Thanked by 2melofluent Jenny
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    The pastor did provide all of his edicts in writing. And while all the practical advice of using contemporary refrains and chanted proper verses seems like a good idea--that's what I have been doing to get by heretofore. That is no longer an option. Even the responsorial psalms must now be all contemporary metrical settings from the Gather book. All my composed psalm antiphons for the weekday school Masses--no longer permitted. (Even the Guimont psalm tones, which are in Gather are not an option).

    I am thinking that seeking a career in another field is the way to go at this point. Problem is my degree is music ed and I really don't want to teach in a public school (we are homeschooling our children after all), and a catholic school would likely put me in the same situation I'm already in. Though I play competently, organ is not my forte so high profile cathedral jobs such as the one in St. Paul is not a likely fit. I have a Masters in vocal performance. I could teach voice but most colleges require a DMA and for the past 10 years I've not been teaching advanced students. I thought that the church career would be more stable for the family life--and I saw a genuine need and thought I was answering the Lord's call, but perhaps it's time to peruse my dream of singing for the met.

    As soon as I can secure another source of income, I can then perhaps have a greater affect on liturgical music from the outside.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    What about opening your own voice studio (independent of the colleges)?
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    E.G. You and David Andrew and I have GOT to talk soon...call David with your schedule and we'll get together for lunch.
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    First of all, because of your family, and here's hoping you have all the health benefits from the diocese as they're more valuable than salary....


    Sadly no. No health insurance. They technically have to offer it to me but to add my family it would cost about $1200 deducted from my wages each month. and then it's only a 80/20 split. That combined with a mortgage payment and other bills leaves us in the red every month. It was cheaper to add myself onto a 3rd party plan for my family so I opted out of the individual benefit as my tithe to the church. That worked for a while, but now that all premiums have tripled since the passing of Obamacare we've been without any insurance for the past year.

    Interesting how a priest who embraces the NPM philosophy of church music doesn't look at the salary guidelines. After 10 years of service I'm still well below the minimum NPM DMMA suggestion for "Master’s Degree in Music Base: 52,687–70,404 Ben: +10,538–21,121 "

    Of course I suspect that across the board, most church musicians are severely underpaid.
  • David AndrewDavid Andrew
    Posts: 1,206
    Two things regarding this priest:

    "Stupidity is sufficient unto itself. Wisdom can never learn enough." - Mechtild de Magdaburg

    "The two most plentiful elements in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." - Harlon Ellson

    Thanked by 2melofluent CHGiffen
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Earl, you have seriously (via your last post at 1:26 my clock PST) been nuked by this, this....cretinous attack.
    I think that you prioritize what suggestions among all of ours (like Kathy's tighten the resume) that seem viable for you, even tho' I can't imagine the stress in this economic climate, and with no benefits!!! I have two words for that policy, actually they're two initials.
    Secondly, you'll have to find a church for you and your family to attend Mass, even if a quiet one, and offer it up.
    And now....double down on the challenge. Pick the longest psalms, songs, etc. and make it all a spectacle of pure joy and transcendence for you and the choristers. Be Whoopi, be Whoopie cubed! Make the music as much of centerpiece as possible without impugning seriously upon the legitimacy of the Mass. Go all St. Sabina's Chicago with your choices.
    Make every Gloria a refrain "Glory," heck sing the refrain twice each go 'round. Use "Alleluia! Give the Gory" for the gospel acclamation every Mass. Just don't put your personality at odds with the ethos or above it and make it about YOU. But, eventually I think this (have a little) priest has another shoe to drop and you might as well give him more than what he mandates so you can be the good soldier Schweik, and draw his agenda out into the open for all to see. He may have some attack sheep helping him be an autocratic protestant, they functioning as the committee henchpersons, but somebody will have to recognize this situation is intolerable to the health of the parish.
    Heck, go all ironic on it one day and croon "I can only imagine....."
  • WendiWendi
    Posts: 638
    Melo my dear friend... you have a brilliant (if twisted) mind.

    EG...send your family down town to Saint Joseph's. The priest is Father Poggemeyer, he is very Orthodox.
    Thanked by 1Earl_Grey
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    All five verses of IATBOL, Melo?
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Ten, Richard, ten. One must be inclusive and do the Spanish even if the celebrant has to sit for five minutes after the altar is cleared. We must respect the integrity of not only Sr. Toolan, but whatever crackerjack associate(s) rendered a faithful translation. And I have it on good advice from our friend in Portsmouth that if they're are 120 in the congregation and ten of them are Mien ancestry, no matter how many generations removed, it would be wise to at least do two more verses in Mien, or LaHu, or Hmong, Urdu, Sanskrit, Gaelic, Gallic....well, you get his point. We are "c-atholic" and we R HOSPITABLE! Und ve will like it.
    Wendi, you have no idea. Another W does...the Saint.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Matthew 5:41: "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    "If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles."


    (42) Amen Amen, I say to you, whistle the whole two miles. Do you not have a saying, "It's a small world after all?"
  • Earl_GreyEarl_Grey
    Posts: 904
    I know Fr. Poggemeyer well. My wife and kids have attended Mass at St. Joseph downtown. Though it's hard for her to take the kids to a different parish however. The 4 year old wants to go to "daddy's church" and since I play all the morning Masses, I can't attend another with my family. Poggemeryer would like me to start a schola at his church, but can't afford to pay. If I can find another job to support the family then I could volunteer for the orthodox church.

    I try to go to the EF low Mass during the week when I can so I can actually pray.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen