What is your favorite GIA or OCP hymnal ?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,614
    Melo, can you give two scenarios that differ only in what is programmed? If you don't do that, they don't relate to the question you are posing.
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  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    Actually, Richard, neither of those scenarios had anything to do with my request to WO, but I knew someone would call me on incongruity. Those scenarios were just prompts to think about "what" can truly "damage" one's faith. No more, no less.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Does it breed bitterness? Then your faith is being damaged.
  • melofluentmelofluent
    Posts: 4,160
    "If today you hear His voice, harden not your hearts." Bitterness is a seed not sown in our hearts by God, or tended by anything other than ego. In that regard, WO and I are in complete agreement. Make sure the seeds we sow are of God's voice. Dann, es gibts keine Probleme.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,614
    Anyway, to answer theloniouslopez' question: I liked Worship II, but I haven't seen it in use anywhere for years.
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  • I made the "damaging faith" comment in response to an earlier comment. I don't personally see how any song in any afformentioned hymnal cold damage one's faith.

    Melo - both of your scenarios would be distracting to me, but it will take a lot more than that to damage MY faith.

    I wonder how damaging all the vernacular hymns during the consecration, etc. and bulletin-reading was back in the days leading up to Vatican II? Poor judgement is not a new problem.
    Thanked by 1melofluent
  • matthewjmatthewj
    Posts: 2,663
    I had Worship III in the pews at a previous Church. It wasn't terrible and combined with sung propers and Psalms from other sources, it could be used to run a decent program. Yes, some of the word-changes in some hymns could be seen as regrettable, but overall it all could be decent in the hands of the right director.
  • moursundjames
    Posts: 1
    Fr. Chepponis - love your setting of the Magnificat dedicated to your parents. Very beautiful, and very practical. God bless!

    We are using primarily W4, though we have BB as well. I'm pretty traditional (with a slight Protestant-friendly bent, growing up Episcopalian). I find the response is reliably positive when congregations know the music. It takes time, but it's worth teaching hymns/chants/service music before Mass begins to increase the literacy of a congregation.

    I also try to throw them a bone every once in a while (I am the Bread of Life, etc...) because, after all, many of them grew up with these songs. They cherish them, and I empathize with that. Change in the music culture is a slow battle, but worth the effort.

    [Admin note: Hi, moursundjames! Just please be aware that you're adding to a discussion thread that has not been active since April 2013. Welcome!]
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 7,982
    There is no favourite GIA hymnal - they are all, particularly in the light of certain others - poor in text and music, so, thus, are highly objectionable. If I really had to choose one it would be Worship I, II, III, or IV. Catholics seem to have a serious deficit when it comes to compiling hymnals.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    Well, since this thread has been resurrected after eight years...

    When I took the new job, the parish was subscribing to Breaking Bread, which I thought was a waste of money every year. I persuaded them to switch to Glory and Praise, Third Edition. I wouldn't say it's my favorite, but I thought it was the best of the options available from GIA and OCP, given the culture of the parish.

    Of the 730 or so songs in the hymnal, I use fewer than 200, and I only use two of the Mass settings. At least one-third of the songs I use in the hymnal are public domain hymns.

    G&P, 3rd Edition won't please rigorous traditionalists, but for the typical Catholic Novus Ordo parish I think it's a good choice, with plenty of solid traditional hymns and the best of the 80s-2000s repertoire that a lot of people are familiar with and love singing at Mass, without the ultra-contemporary praise and worship music that is beginning to creep into OCP's more recent hymnals and subscriptions.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 826
    Worship II is the best of an extremely unenviable bunch.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    1940, but you have to watch the textual contents sometimes.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 7,982
    Correct, Francis.
    And, the 1940 can now be regarded as a Catholic hymnal because it alone is used at Walsingham and throughout the Ordinariat. I'm sorry that we don't use The English Hymnal of 1906 because it is even better that the 1940.
  • Mark,

    If Glory and Praise is an improvement over anything whatsoever, you had your work cut out for you! If it suited the culture of the parish well, how did a serious musician such as you get hired to provide music for Mass?

    I'm hardly a rigorous traditionalist, but I always found Glory and Praise more suited to a campfire than to serious worship, and (as a former Episcopalian) simply musically inferior to anything I had experienced up to that point. My initial reaction to "Be not afraid" was "How on earth do congregations sing double-dotted notes?"

    Has it been your goal to improve the taste buds of the parish, or not?


    Since the purpose of this thread is to answer the question "Which GIA or OCP hymnal is the favorite?", I guess I would (reluctantly) vote for Worship II, as the one least damaged by the cancer and corosion of the 1980s.
    Thanked by 1mattebery
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,215
    I would love it if TEH 1906 would be re-set according to more modern music publishing conventions. It’s an excellent hymnal, but it’s hard to read! Though I suppose I’ve only seen scans online and never held a hard copy, so maybe that’s easier.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    When I was researching hymnals I was at first put-off by the title of Glory and Praise, Third Edition because of the association of that title with the songbooks and music of the late 70s and 80s. When I looked at the index of titles, however, I was surprised how much it contained that I would be happy to use. I disregard all the St. Louis Jesuit songs in the hymnal, from which it takes its title. It wasn't that different from Breaking Bread in content, and a judicious music director can find ways to work with what's in Breaking Bread while ignoring much of its contents and supplementing with sheet music. OCP could get more musicians to look seriously at the G&P hymnal if they rebranded it under a different title. Glory and Praise has too much baggage associated with it to keep using the name.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,215
    I have Breaking Bread and it works fine for me. I just only use the traditional hymns and ignore the dreck. I don’t necessarily want to freak people out by switching the hymnal!
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 7,982
    Giving Glory & Praise a new name?
    Wouldn't that be sort of like trying to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear?

    (I don't mean to cast aspersions upon anyone here's choices relevant to the particulars of his or her parish. After all, when we are in a certain place we each have found it necessary to utilise the less than best rather than the best - or even the next best. I, for one, could never think of employing a hymnal half if not three quarters of which I would never use.)

    (By the way, in response to Irish's query above here, I have several extra copies of TEH that I would send to anyone who was willing to pay the postage and packaging. Just send me your address. I see that one is available from Amazon for around $70. Surely there more to be had for less.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,172
    I used RitualSong for 20 years. About one third of the psalms were usable, the remainder were awful. It had enough good hymns in it that I didn't have to use the more questionable ones.
  • Am I the only person here (except Jackson, perhaps) who thinks that a hymnal doesn't belong on a "best of" list if more than a third of it is unusable?
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    Quite a few hymnals have 700+ songs in them. You expect parishes to sing even half that many songs in the course of a liturgical year?

    A repertoire of 150 or so songs is ample for any parish to know well and sing. Repetition is important if you expect the congregation to sing.

    But hymnal publishers need to create hymnals for a mass market with widely varying needs and tastes, so they pack the hymnals with more music than any one parish could or would use.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Carol
    Posts: 679
    "My initial reaction to "Be not afraid" was "How on earth do congregations sing double-dotted notes?" "

    I don't know any place where "Be Not Afraid" is sung as written and it should never have been published that way, IMHO. I think this is a case of someone transcribing exactly what the song writer sang as a soloist, not what makes sense for a congregation to sing.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,172
    I always thought "Whistle a Happy Tune" had better theology behind it than "Be Not Afraid." YMMV.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    MJO

    I may be interested in the EH.... I think I was going to buy one from overseas years ago but the price was prohibitive...

    Which is the hymnal with the very small melody at the top of each page and then the text in paragraphs underneath?
  • Mark,

    You've mistaken my meaning.

    If I have many good choices, even if I use a relatively small number of them in any given year, I have good choices; if I have 20 choices for each place where music can be used at Mass, but I wouldn't use 19 of each set of them if my salary were doubled and all politicians suddenly became honest persons.... I may have a great quantity, but I would not have good choices because, in effect, I wouldn't have any choice at all.

    When hymnal publishers are catering to as large a market as possible, and therefore disregard their duty to produce a work of integrity.... they produce to suit flavors in parishes, instead of theocentric texts/music suitable for the worship of God.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    the other problem in purchasing (supporting) a poor hymnal (even if it has traditional (aka, authentic sacred music) within) is you're giving money to the composers and publishers of POOR music...
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    MJO

    I found my digital copy of the EH... Have you heard of the The Hymnary? Here is Jeff Ostrowski's take on it.

    https://www.ccwatershed.org/2018/01/04/pdf-download-1872-the-hymnary/
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    Some threads deteriorate into useless or pedantic bickering. Why is that?

    Look, I chose the hymnal I did because it would save the parish money versus an annual subscription model, it had a selection of music that satisfied me and wouldn't need much supplementing, and the subset of music I would use would please the choir, the parish and the pastor while allowing me to introduce better and more appropriate music at Mass that would eventually become more prominent.

    The St. Michael Hymnal or the Ignatius Pew Missal or the Adoremus Hymnal didn't have enough of the OCP or GIA music that people in most Novus Ordo parishes do love to sing and expect to sing at least every once in a while.

    A hymnal that has at least 150-200 good, usable songs and that won't have to be supplemented much is a great hymnal for a music director who's trying to steer the ship in a different direction.

    I consider OCP's lyrical editorial decisions in traditional hymns to be more palatable than GIA's editorial decisions, which is why I favor OCP's products.

    GIA is going even more explicitly woke. Read the latest GIA Quarterly for info about that. Their sudden assertions of having a conscience now to play to the market are laughable and hollow after what they tolerated from David Haas for decades.

    OCP is going in that direction too, but isn't as bad yet.

    This thread started as what is your favorite OCP or GIA hymnal.

    I answered and explained.


    Thanked by 1chonak
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    The St. Michael Hymnal or the Ignatius Pew Missal or the Adoremus Hymnal didn't have enough of the OCP or GIA music that people in most Novus Ordo parishes do love to sing and expect to sing at least every once in a while.
    thanks for clarity about the fact that you still sing the dreck.

    [Admin note: This is rude. Please review the Forum Etiquette Guidelines.]
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    You illustrated my point about threads deteriorating into bickering, and so rapidly too. It's only three or four people who are responsible for doing that.

    FYI, I have taken a parish, during a pandemic year, and shifted the music culture from a steady diet of St. Louis Jesuit crap to more traditional hymns, introducing Latin and vernacular chant at Communion at every Mass, with the previously melody-only "choir" now singing in SATB about half the time and learning Mozart's "Ave Verum Corpus" to sing on Corpus Christi. I have the only growing choir in the diocese: sixteen new members in the past seven months, half of them men and a third of them young adults in their twenties. Parishioners are pleased with the new music and with what I have kept that they know and enjoy singing.

    "Still singing the dreck," as you put it, is a necessary and wise pastoral choice while playing the long game in trying to introduce more beautiful sacred music at a typical Catholic parish with a volunteer choir, about half of whom don't read music.

    I wonder if some of you live and work in the real world.
  • davido
    Posts: 472
    They don’t.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    @MarkB
    Still singing the dreck," as you put it, is a necessary and wise pastoral choice while playing the long game in trying to introduce more beautiful sacred music at a typical Catholic parish with a volunteer choir, about half of whom don't read music.

    I wonder if some of you live and work in the real world.

    There is no ill intent nor seeing your choice as "beneath" in any way. Please do not take offense.

    I laud you for trying to do what you are doing. We have all been there and done that... and I have been there and done that for 50 years. The thread is simply about the 'favorite' hymnal... do you have a 'favorite' despite what you must use from day to day?

    TRUE STORY

    I brought to the parish council the fact that we would save money and have a wider choice of hymns if we purchased a permanent hymnal. We were using WLP missallete at the time. (I also used the tree hugger argument that it would save trees... lol) The PC agreed and I put forward my choice of purchasing Worship IV which they all agreed to. Everything went along. We petitioned the parish to pay for our new upcoming hymnal. Everyone was contributing to the cause and I proposed putting dedication labels in the front of the hymnal. The whole affair was a great experience...

    ...except at the last moment, the pastor trumped my decision for WIV and purchased Gather instead. I swallowed my preference and all the work I had put into getting a new hymnal, ate humble pie and proceeded to use the new dreck hymnal that I was responsible (partly) for putting in the pews. I then was commissioned to play the drek at Mass. Did it for two more years. Done with that. Moving on.

    (I truly believe that there is no long game... came to that realization years ago. If there is any 'long', it's 'stringing a long'.)

    @davido

    They don’t.

    To which 'they' are you referring? I believe everyone here is 'working' in a church.

    BTW... I think the 'real' world has definitely become most 'unreal' in the last two years. Hard to even find reality these days.
  • Mark,

    Let me take an environmentalist's opinion for a second.

    While a yearly-changing subscription is wasteful of paper and gives the impression that nothing lasting, enduring, is available, a single non-recyclable hymnal is better because they amount of paper used/misused is smaller. (Republishing the same stuff every year, assuming 700 hymns, is wasteful of 7 times as much paper as having one hymnal with the same 700 hymns not replaced every year.) So, I applaud your movement away from the subscription service. On the same basis, I would argue that printing the Propers one needs and putting them in a binder is better than buying $300/copy books of which one uses about 1/20 of the pages. (Liber Usualis) On the other hand, if the goal is to expand one's use, to encourage (for example) the praying of the Office, then the thousand pages in each volume that one doesn't use this year are not wasted because they are intrinsically good and a long-term investment.

    So, I applaud your decision to move in the direction of something more durable and less wasteful. This is where I run into problems, though: if you know in advance that of the pages available something like 1/2 of it is stuff you'll never use because it would represent a movement in the wrong direction, aren't you establishing the idea that your parish should include all that stuff you never use in its next hymnal, and the one after that and..... so on?


    I have (somewhere) a copy of the St. Michael Hymnal, first edition, and various editions of the Adoremus Hymnal, and also Worship III, Gather (something or the other), Hymnal 1982, Hymnal 1940, and grew up around Hymns Ancient and Modern and the English Hymnal 1906. Each has a good point somewhere, and some have more than just one good point. None, so far, is wholly satisfactory for use at Mass. Many of them would be useful at non-Mass and non-Office opportunities to worship God.

    When the presumption is that vernacular hymnody is a good thing and must be promoted above all else, a false premise leads to many false conclusions.

  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    CGZ

    A good hymnal (at least in content) is this:

    https://sspx.org/en/news-events/news/angelus-press-releases-second-edition-traditional-roman-hymnal

    I am not sure about the hymn arrangements, however, I have never seen a choir edition.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 826
    Not that I want to feed CCW's silly sniping at other hymnals, but if the part-writing is still like this, I would steer far clear of it.
    image
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    @Schönbergian

    Which hymnal is that which you are showing? The voice leading is the worst I have ever seen!... and WHY would you not use JSB's harmonization??
    Thanked by 1sdtalley3
  • argentarius
    Posts: 23
    ,
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 203
    @francis

    Its the Pius X hymnal printed by the Angelus Press. I have their newer edition and for as expanded as it is, many of the hymns are not much better in their arrangements, sure they are not as bad as the example above, but I've seen much better voicing arrangements in like the St. Gregory Hymnal, and I'm not the biggest fan of the St. Basil hymnal either as it has (in my opinion) somewhat watered down harmonization's of popular songs in the traditional community.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • WGS
    Posts: 261
    What ever happened to "Hymnbook 1982"?

    - which "contains all hymns from The Hymnal 1982 with accompaniment but no service music"?

    It seems that it would have been appropriate for a congregation looking for a good assortment of traditional hymns.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,319
    " . . . the Pius X hymnal printed by the Angelus Press" I assume being "The Traditional Roman Hymnal", not the "The Pius X Hymnal" published in 1953:

    http://archive.ccwatershed.org/media/pdfs/13/12/13/20-37-55_0.pdf
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    @sdtalley3

    ...I don't think it is the Pius X Hymnal, I believe it is The Traditional Roman Hymnal, yes? If those are the voice leadings in that book, that is truly a travesty... best content, worst arrangements...
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    @WGS

    do you mean the Episcopal 1982?
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 830
    The “Traditional Roman Hymnal” is published by the SSPX, which is distinct from the Pius X hymnal liked above.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • WGS
    Posts: 261
    Both "Hymnal 1982" and "Hymnbook 1982" were produced by TEC.
    However, Hymnbook 1982 contains all hymns from the Hymnal 1982 with accompaniment but no service music.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 9,465
    @WGS

    I just looked that up and it is available for 19 buckaroos on amazon... since that is the follow-up of the 1940, I would imagine its hymn arrangements are still stellar, but I do not know if the content is very dif.

    I have (had) two 1940s. (One of them I slit the cover off and scanned the entirety in on our nifty stack scanner one day.) Most of it is available (high res) on Hymnary.org these days.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 765
    I'm not sure if I could pick a favorite hymnal from OCP or GIA. I think Worship II is probably the best one that I've used. I couldn't stand Ritual Song. Breaking Bread still serves to elevate my organ mirror.

    About the 1940, I picked up my copy at a secondhand store around here for $1.50. Great find.
    Thanked by 2francis CHGiffen
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 203
    @francis

    Thanks for the correction, I knew it was affiliated with the FSSPX...Hence I misnamed it.
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 7,982
    The Hymnal 1982 does not cantina all the hymns and\pr times that are found in the 1940. It also has certain hymns to different tunes and some hymns and tunes missing altogether. One example that comes to mind is 'Alleluia, Song of Gladness' which disappointingly is not paired with Dulce Carmen'. On the other hand it has some new ones, such as 'The Lord Ascendeth Up on High' Ach Herr du alleallehochster Gott., a wonderfully ceremonial tune by Praetorius. It also contains some new ones that it shouldn't.
    Thanked by 1francis
  • MarkB
    Posts: 633
    Well, there's this new fourth version of Gather from GIA now:
    https://www.giamusic.com/store/gather-4

    I looked at the index, and I wouldn't use it. There isn't a single Mass setting in the hymnal that I would use. GIA's "classic" catalogue is stale at this point, and the new titles aren't worth singing.

    Company promo blurb: "The Gather line of hymnals has become the norm by which all other Catholic hymnals are measured."

    Really? hahahahaha

    I wonder how well this will sell.
  • pfreese
    Posts: 138
    It’s telling that blacklisted titles like “All Are Welcome” and “Sing A New Church” are all still there, these guys really do live on a different ecclesiastical planet. I suspect the real reason for rolling out Gather IV is to free their flagship product of David Haas.