• Are the antiphons and responsories of Matins (Nocturnale) online like the Antiphonale? I know the Liber has the important feasts, but I'd like the ferial antiphons (and a few from the temporal and sanctoral).
  • Meant for the title to say "Matins." I really dislike auto-correct.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    You can edit your initial posting and fix the title.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • Actually, when first I saw it, I thought it was going to be about Marin Marais.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Simon
    Posts: 158
    You would be best off by buying the Nocturnale Romanum via this link

    info: http://www.hartker.com/verlag/buecher.html

    purchase: http://www.hartker-shop.de/

    Not aware of any modern printed material with music of the matins as complete as this edition: 77 Invitatorien, 13 Invitatorial psalmodien, 40 Hymnen, ca. 600 Antiphonen und ca. 750 Responsorien (according to the website).
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • Thanks! I was hoping for something free online like the 1912 Antiphonale, but I do like being able to hold a physical copy and leaf through as necessary. Very cool stuff.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    Yes, this is what you will have to do, unless you are able to find some antiphons in digitalized manuscripts and compose the rest (not present in the tradition before the reform of Pius X) yourself.

    I once searched for antiphons for Sunday matins only in manuscripts and was only able to find about one half of them, see http://stiwolfgangi.xf.cz/servaria.php
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • I have found the chants for almost all feasts according to the old pre-Pius X psalter. The one source I used is an Antiphonarium manuscript from a Capucine monastery in Switzerland, and the other is the Antiphonarium dominicarum secundum consuetudinem sanctae Romanae ecclesiae from shortly before the Medicean edition and the Hymn revision by Urban VIII (thus it has Conditor alme siderum and the like).
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  • aldrich
    Posts: 230
    The Nocturnale is indeed a compelling fount for the chant of Matins. It obeys the Solesmes notation (some neumes, such as the oriscus, cannot be found in the Liber) without the rhythmic marks (no ictus or episemata). One should also that the Nocturnale diverges from the chant of the Liber usualis in more than one places, and there are instances when the lyrics are not correctly aligned to the neumes.

    There are also quirky information you can deduce from the Nocturnale. For example, the antiphons for the Matins of the Feast of Saint Joseph, a feast reportedly so disliked by the Sacred Congregation of Rites, were composed by the editor of the Nocturnale, Holger Peter Sandhofe. This implies that there never was an immediate set of Office hymns composed for the Feast. This corroborates the sore absence of the propers for the Feast in copied of the Liber usualis published after the institution of the feast.
  • The propers for the Feast of St. Joseph (May 1) are in the Liber usualis of the year 1961.
    As to the Nocturnale romanum, H. P. Sandhofe has composed there quite a lot: many of the antiphons for the psalter 'per hebdomadam', and most of the chants for the new feasts or new propers introduced after the 1st world war (Sacred Heart, obviously St. Joseph the Worker, too).
    It appears that there was very little demand for notated Matins already more than a century ago. The OSB Liber responsorialis (1895) contains only a small part of the nocturnal chants. The OP Nocturnale (1936) even less. Could it be that those religious who had choir obligation in those days just cantillated recto tono?
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    Andris: E.g. the trappists, although their full choir books were newly printed in the 40's, were explicitly allowed to recite the matins in their constitutions (which can be read - several old versions of them - at http://www.ocso.org ).
    Thanked by 1Andris Amolins
  • Thank you all for the info. Just how much did he compose, and were these completely new or adapted from Grgorian melodies?
  • In the book, there are sources given for each piece of chant. If there stands HPS, it means a melody to the text was nowhere to find and he adapted or composed himself.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • Very interesting. Thank you so much.
  • HPS = Holger Peter Sandhofe
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  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    There's a book in the Vatican Library entitled "Liber Nocturnalis ... Basilicae Vaticanae" from 1930. (Last time I was there it was, however, unavailable due to maintenance work.) It contains most of the night office as sung in St Peter's Basilica at the time (except for Holy Week.)
    Sandhofe was aware that such a book existed, but he couldn't find a copy. Therefore he had to rely for the ferial antiphons on the Officium Majoris Hebdomadae which has antiphons only for Sunday through Wednesday. The antiphons for Thursday, Friday and Saturday as well as the antiphons for the Paschal Season he mostly composed himself.
    In the attached PDF I have transcribed the ferial antiphons from this book. The layout is admittedly ugly, but it's certainly interesting to see what might be a draft of the (never published) official Nocturnale Romanum.
    PsalteriumVaticanum.pdf
    145K
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    I just fell off the chair. (Mentally, you know, without any harm to myself or to the furniture in my room.) Thank you very much.
  • Many thanks, Joerg. If only the whole book could once join the Musica Sacra's pdf vault. Since this is a printed book and relatively recent (1930) there should be more copies around.
  • That would be amazing! Is it possible?
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    I have obtained a pdf of this book from the Biblioteca Apostolica Vaticana but the condition was that I don't put it online. According to WorldCat the only library other than the BAV which has a copy of the book is Tilburg University in the Netherlands.
  • Joerg,

    Have you made a comparison between
    the Liber Nocturnalis.... Basilicae Vaticanae
    and
    the Liber Responsorialis pro festis I. classis et communi sanctorum justa ritum manasticum dated 1895 on the cover page, but actually containing materials dated as late as 1930?

    I am curious as to the possible over-lap in materials in the two books.

    ***********************************************
    I just tried to upload the Liber Responsorialis and was given a message that said,
    "File upload failed. Reason: The post data was too big (max 8M)"

    So... I split the pdf into halves and tried to upload the first half ( which is under 8M)
    with the following message being returned.
    "File upload failed. Reason: (Liber_ Responsorialis 1895-1930 first half.pdf) The uploaded file was too big (max 2M)."

    Question: What is the actual maximum file size that can be uploaded?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    Felicity

    I thought the Liber Responsorialis... was already online. When I get back from holiday I will have a look.
  • @joerg: Would not putting it online also restrict you from sending it via e-Mail to those requesting it, under the condition they wouldn't put it online either? In that case everybody interested could send you a PN with his/her e-Mail adress.
    Thanked by 1ScottKChicago
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    Felicity,
    the Nocturnale has the reformed office of Pius X, which is quite different from the monastic office. So I guess there will be little overlap with the Responsoriale (which I have never seen). Also the Nocturnale doesn't have any Great Responsories, it just gives relatively simple melodies in the 8 tones to which one would sing any responsory. A possible overlap might be in the tones for psalm 94. The Nocturnale has 11 of them. I've transcribed them in the attached pdf.

    Protasius,
    unfortunately sending my pdf via private mail is also explicitely forbidden. The condition of the BAV reads as follows:

    1. The material will be used only for purposes of private study and only by me and will be kept in my personal custody and control at all times;
    PsalteriumVaticanum_Ps_Inv.pdf
    165K
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • Drats!
  • CHGiffenCHGiffen
    Posts: 5,193
    Ratzlfratz!!
  • Thanks again, Joerg!

    Since the Liber Responsorialis (1895) covers only Feasts of the 1st class and Commons it should match very well with the Roman Office of St. Pius X, since these it seems were left intact by the reform of 1911.

    It is interesting that the Vatican Nocturnal gives only simple psalm-tone melodies for the Responsories. It corresponds to what I was told about th pre-conciliar practice in our diocesan seminary and cathedral where the responsories of the Office of the Dead, too, were sung all in the 5th psalm tone melody.

    Just curious, what could be the reason for the above restrictions of use? The copyright of an anonymous book from 1930 has expired. And they do not make any business with the access to the book, too. Or do they?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    It's not likely that the copyright was renewed when its first term finished. You can search Stanford's database to verify this: http://collections.stanford.edu/copyrightrenewals/bin/page?forward=home

  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    I've made some progress in my bilingual Latin/German edition of the Nocturnale Vaticanum. But over the next months I won't have the time to complete it. So I decided to put here, what I've done so far: It covers the first 99 pages of the Nocturnale, i.e. the weekly psalter and the Proprium of the seasons. The Proprium of the Saints (140 pages) and the Communia (40 pages) still have to be done. The edition turned out to be much more work than I anticipated. First of all the Nocturnale is hand written with numerous errors both in the text and in the music. While the text could easily be emendated according to the 4 volume "Breviarium ad Usum Cleri Basilicae Vaticanae" from 1925, the music had to be checked by internal criteria. Furthermore the pitches are not always indicated clearly. Also the psalm text used at St Peter's is from the "Psalterium Romanum" not from the Vulgate, so there is no reliable online version of the psalms. But the hardest part was translating the hymns. The canons of St Peter's never accepted Urban VIII's revised hymnary. So they retained all the difficult passages of the medieval hymns. It turned out that for none of the passages that I found difficult could I find a satisfactory explanation in the literature. Of the 20 hymns occurring so far I only found 1 translation which I considered adequate (St Thomas' hymn for Corpus Christi).
    Nocturnale_per_Hebdomadam.pdf
    1M
    Nocturnale_de_Tempore.pdf
    894K
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    joerg, thank you so much for this contribution. Would it be possible to get the 1st and 8th antiphons from the Exaltation of the Holy Cross, Sept. 14?

    1 Noct. Ant. 1: Nóbile lignum * exaltátur, Christi fides rútilat, dum Crux ab ómnibus venerátur.

    3 Noct. Ant. 2 (Ant. 8): Per lignum * servi facti sumus, et per sanctam Crucem liberáti sumus: fructus árboris sedúxit nos, Fílius Dei redémit nos, allelúia.

    Thanks!
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    The Liber Responsorialis is online as a Google Book now, I am happy to report:
    (click here)
    As I had previously had a look at it through inter-library loan, I rather found this amusing.
    Thanked by 3Jahaza CHGiffen tomjaw
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    ClemensRomanus: Here's the antiphons for Sept 14.

    If You need something else, don't hesitate to ask. Typesetting these antiphons takes about a minute each. So it's no effort at all.
    Sept14.pdf
    56K
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Thank you.
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    You have brought this on yourself by your last comment, friend Joerg:

    Could I have (if you have them) the Matins chants for the Little Office of Our Lady (which you may find as part of other feasts), namely:
    Invitatory: Ave Maria
    Ant. Benedicta tu
    Ant. Sicut myrrha
    Ant. Ante torum
    Ant. Specie tua
    Ant. Adjuvabit eam
    Ant. Sicut laetantium
    Ant. Gaude Maria Virgo
    Ant. Dignare
    Ant. Post partum
    *Ant. Angelus Domini
    *Resp. Sancta et immaculata
    Resp. Missus est Gabriel
    *Resp. Beata es
    Resp. Ave Maria
    *Resp. Felix namque es
    Resp. Suscipe Verbum
    ?

    I am working on a singer's book for the entire Officium Parvum 1962; I have these chants all from the Nocturnale Romanum; also between the Liber Responsorialis and Processionale Monasticum of 1895ish they are covered. The asterisked ones I have also from the Antiphonale Romanum 1949 and am happy with them, but I'd be really interested to see if/how the others in your book have progressed/evolved since the 1895 editions.

    Thank you,
    Jonathan
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    "I am working on a singer's book for the entire Officium Parvum 1962" - so am I. I haven't taken anything from the Nocturnale, as I didn't have it at the beginning of the work, but found the chants in manuscripts instead. The book isn't ready yet, but the gabcs may be found here:
    https://github.com/igneus/Editio-Sti-Wolfgangi/tree/master/Conventus/OfficiumParvumBMV
    (in directory "cantus")
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    JonathanKK: Glad to be able to help. Here are the antiphons of the Commune BMV. They are rather uninteresting, just two common melodies of the 4th and 7th mode.
    Since You raise the question of the place of the Vatican Nocturnale in the framework of the Gregorian restoration. I'm not sure these melodies belong there. They may well come from an older tradition. In fact some of the antiphons which are both in the Nocturnal and the Officium Hebdomadae Majoris have a more modern (meaning: more medieval) melody in the latter book (e.g. Servite Domino in timore.)
    CommBMV.pdf
    65K
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Joerg,
    Thanks, although I think you've made some couple scribal errors.
    This may give me the push to not use HPS's versions of these antiphons, after I compare more closely and think some more deep thoughts (grin).
    Basically, I am trying to make everything in my book as 1962-ish as possible, and I sometimes suspect HPS of being a bit modern - he has changes in the Responsories, for example. The antiphons of your source are basically the same as the LR with the exception of Sicut myrrha, but Angelus Domini has been "updated" to the 1949 AR version - this therefore gives the antiphons in LR a 35 year boost, which is welcome.
    Also, your Venite 7a looks like just the thing - it is much closer to HPS than LR is, but does not go quite so extreme.
    The invitatory you sent is however, much different, and less ornate - I don't think it is good. Although, you may have a different one "Ave Maria", I don't know.
    I am assuming that your book doesn't have Responsories? The advent ones would be helpful, especially Suscipe Verbum.
    If I make some comparison booklets later, maybe I'll post them here - this is very interesting stuff to think about, at least to me.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Sorry to bother you again, joerg, but would it be possible to get the antiphons for the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity, the Feast of the Most Precious Blood, and the Feast of the Dedication of St. Michael the Archangel? I could really use these. Thanks, and God bless.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    Are you only interested in the antiphons or also in the responsories? I have finished the antiphons for the first nocturn of Trinity and I am pondering whether I should work on the responsories or the antiphons.
    Trinitas.pdf
    102K
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    I just need the antiphons for a devotional project a group at our parish is putting together. The antiphons are to be sung, then short meditations on each given.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Sorry, I just noticed the Holy Trinity antiphons in your attachment above.
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Also, I could use the 5th antiphon from the Transfiguration:

    Melior est dies una in atriis tuis super millia.

    Thanks again for all your help!
  • SkirpRSkirpR
    Posts: 854
    Basically, I am trying to make everything in my book as 1962-ish as possible


    Just as a curious aside - and apologies for the distraction - I'm curious why one would restrict themselves to musicological research as it stood in 1962? Perhaps I'm naive (or maybe a modernist) but even in the EF, would it be wrong to use chant melodies that were updated by Solesmes (for example) based on recent research? Had the Council not altered the liturgy at all, surely these newer editions would have still been issued eventually.

    Or to sum up the crux of my confusion - where does musicological research stand on the spectrum of liturgical vs. musical concerns? (To me, it is almost exclusively musical and not liturgical. If the melody was updated in - for example - 2006 - I'd have no qualms about using it in an EF liturgy - as long as the text is the same and the melody was only altered slightly to reflect recent research - clearly coming from the same melodic source, i.e, the chant not newly composed.)

    Why not use something that has been given more attention and study than make do with the research in place when older editions were published?
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542

    SkirpR,
    A hopefully short answer, maybe not the best, because it is late at night now:

    I am trying to keep things stylistically uniform, and my paradigm is the Liber 1962; the book which I am making is a singer's book for the Officium Parvum 1962.

    Because HPS's version of, say, Sancta et immaculata is different from that of LU, I know that he is interpreting things differently; on the other end of things, the Liber Responsorialis has yet another take on the same piece.

    Then, when I find that the Antiphonale Romanum 1949 has the same version of this Sancta et immaculata as LU, I therefore "trust" its versions of other responsories I need - Beata es and Felix namque.

    That is something of the game I am playing. I am not restricting myself to 1962 era stuff; if they are the only two options for a chant, I may prefer HPS over LR; but if I do, it will be because HPS is closer to the "1962 style".
    Thanked by 1SkirpR
  • joerg
    Posts: 137
    Here are some more antiphons:

    March 25 (For the Invitatorium "Ave Maria")
    May 8 (Apparition of St.Michael, for the Invitatorium of Dedication of St. Michael)
    July 1 (Most Precious Blood)
    August 6 (Transfiguration)
    September 29 (Dedication of St. Michael)
    [The Antiphons for the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity are already contained in the
    large PDF of the Proprium de Tempore, I posted on April 4]
    Mar25.pdf
    48K
    Mai8.pdf
    43K
    Jul1.pdf
    54K
    Aug6.pdf
    53K
    Sept29.pdf
    63K
  • ClemensRomanusClemensRomanus
    Posts: 1,023
    Joerg, thanks!
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    @joerg: The Antiphons for Trinity in the Antiphonary for St Peter's Canons are not the same as the ones in the Roman Breviary, although they are similar.
    Thanked by 1ClemensRomanus
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    Here is a booklet comparing the the versions of the 10 antiphons for Matins of the Little Office which can be found in the LR 1895, Noct.Vat. 1930, and NR 2002.

    Joerg: Could you double-check the ones I got from you against your source (really just Sicut Myrrha, as it appears to be the only one that is melodically unique to the 1930 book)?
    Officium Parvum Study Edition of Matins Chants antiphons only.pdf
    97K
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    A question to those in possession of the Nocturnale Romanum edited by Holger Peter Sandhofe: Does it contain the chants for Matins of the Solemnity of Saint Joseph (celebrated on the third Wednesday after Easter)?
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 390
    Yes, page 152*-161*. (It's funny that there were three St Joseph feasts next to each other: 19.3., this movable one and 1.5.)