I should add, please give an indication of their difficulty. I myself have taken lessons with a longtime voice teacher at CUA and can sightread Brahms lieder. I am about to undertake a thorough study of Die Schoene Mullerin. But not all singers can do that, and not all organists can do that. So just an indication of how hard they are.

I have an eye to both being employable AND to helping push every parish I go to in the direction of more sacred music styles--so things that practically a typical MD might expect, no matter what his musical inclinations, and something maybe a little more "our way."

Kenneth

I come from a Baptist background and happen to love all forms of Southern Music. By gospel hymns, you mean being able to belt out Take My Hand, Precious Lord like Mahalia Jackson? Not sure I now the repertory you mean there. I would think the Lord's Prayer would be inappropriate as an Offertory.

solos are not part of a cantor position
look at the history and role of the cantor(um)
the general lack of knowledge and ignorance of what the liturgy requires in term of sacred music is what muddies the water and perpetuates confusion

By Gospel hymns, I mean "His Eye is on the Sparrow", or "Great is Thy Faithfulness".

In a perfect world, I agree that the cantor should not sing solos (Actually.... I don't agree with that, but I'm not interested in arguing on it), but we aren't in a perfect world.

i know this is a novel and foreign idea, but how about the communion proper?

I know the GIRM is not highly regarded or followed many times, but please allow me to post a section on music during communion:

87. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for singing at Communion: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the antiphon with Psalm from the Graduale Simplex of the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) some other suitable liturgical chant (cf. no. 86) approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or a cantor with the people.

(wow... they seem to be heavy on the point of being approved by the bishop for 3 and 4) have the leider or "ANY famous mozart/bach solo" been approved?

the simple english propers?

they may not WANT YOU BACK and influence is highly overrated

don't let that destroy your committment to authenticity, however.

also, it's "choir alone", or "choir or cantor with people" - there is no mention of a solo, Kenneth!

i used to have my choir sing the proper, but as of late that is not possible so now a cantor does that alone. second best, but REAL WORLD if you know what I mean.

did you study liturgy at CUA or just voice?

When I am an MD, I fully intend to abide by the GIRM faithfully and introduce as much chant as possible.

I get the point.

Until then, I need to get hired, and I can assure you that telling a desperate MD that it is not licit for me to sing when he wants me to is a sure way to guarantee that I will have no influence whatsoever. And nothing to show for my years of voice lessons. How many people are going to pay to hear me sing lieder?

Kenneth

I am a desperate MD and I (and others like me) would pay for you to sing the propers!

Choirs are better than soloists, but soloists are permitted and used. See "Sing to the Lord" # 221, USCCB 1997, which addresses weddings in particular:

Vocalists may sing alone during the Preparation of the Gifts or after Communion, provided the music and their manner of singing does not call attention to themselves but rather assists in the contemplation of the sacred mysteries being celebrated.

Like Kenneth, I'd be interested in seeing his question answered.

You all have had your fun at my expense. Of course, the GIRM in Latin is largely silent, as the place you're quoting to me says that Chant is always licit "or whatever is approved by the national bishops," or words to that effect. So we are discussing what is in English, and the fourth option is, in practice---and would be on appeal to the Vatican--viewed as "whatever your bishop allows," which means in practice, whatever the guy who is hiring you for that Sunday wants. So we all know what it says, and we all know what actually happens, and we all know that singers have to be invited back to have any influence.

Just kind of wondering: Parody Masses were reprobated by the Council of Trent, and yet, rather oddly, the further you got from Italy, the laxer the application. (One would normally think the Italians excelled at honoring-by-not-observing, but apparently you have to go North of the Alps to find just general disregard. ) So any Parody Mass after that was not only illicit but was composed in knowing violation of the norms. Do you insist that no one do those?

Anyway, always glad to get a flame going on the old Musica Sacra dicussion board, and it's so EASY to do.

Kenneth

Regardless of what our ideals are, I welcomed Kenneth's question about what vocalists are called upon to sing in practice, since I'm in somewhat the same position: studying art songs for school and wanting to work (more) in churches.

FNJ, citation for the prohibition of Malotte's Lord's Prayer?

As I understood, it could be used, not as the "Our Father" in the mass, but as an offertory, or post-communion meditation?

I thought I started a firestorm when I tried to get a useful list of polyphonic masses for a small volunteer choir!! Still few names. We've gotten to a list of organ pieces (even though there is no mention of instrumental music that I can see at the point that supposedly prohibits solo singing in the GIRM---because it doesn't mention it.)

I myself would be very uncomfortable singing the Lord's Prayer in a Mass.

So...now that we have gone through this, names???? I should add that I have a number of options--the longer chants--that someone else might not. The Cathedral of St. Matthew used to have a Hildegard specialist, and you would come in some times to hear her chanting off in the distance--very effective.

The Black List makes interesting reading.

http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/blacklist.pdf

Titles, composers??? Anything??

Kenneth

I can tackle everything you and Chris Hebard suggested, but can all singers? More the merrier is my point. I said "few," not "none." I had to push a little to get a list of Mass settings out of people.

You have explained it very well. That does not address the question, however, which is that it is often done, and we would like to do it as well as can be. Saying no is not an option for a working musician.

Kenneth

Kenneth-

1. I don't consider anything that has been said in this thread as a "flame" or anything like it.

2. Part of the problem with this thread is that several people here (myself included) find the question to be... well, weird. Outside of weddings and funerals, Catholic parishes don't tend to do a lot of Art Song. There are good reasons for this: on the progressive liturgics side is the issue of active participation; on the traditional side the issue of the inappropriateness of operatic/performance literature at liturgy. The handful of "typical" Catholic solo Art Songs are more or less leftover from the era prior to the liturgical reforms, and represent a way of approaching liturgy that both traditionalists and progressives decried as inauthentic. Yet, because they are still a part of a certain kind of nostalgia among many, they tend to pop up in precisely the contexts where music is selected for reasons of nostalgia and misplaced cultural memory: chiefly, weddings and funerals.

3. The idea that there is some set list of solos that could be pulled out at a moment's notice (an Art Song repertoire) and inserted into the Mass as (what Protestants call) "special music" is not only inauthentic, but (I believe) highly unusual. Music directors either program versions of the Propers (rare, but best case scenario) or they select hymns and songs each week to correspond to the readings and theme of the day (pretty typical, advocated by most contemporary liturgists) or they just rotate through a handful of songs/hymns they already know how to sing and play (three songs about Gathering, four songs about Offering, six songs about Bread/Body, five songs of generic praise for recessionals). Those three paradigms (or, in a lot of cases, a mixture of two or more) cover the programming decisions at most US Catholic parishes. I don't know of any Music Directors who plan all the music for a Mass except the Offertory, and then ask the Cantor what he/she has in his/her briefcase.

4. If you want to Cantor, either professionally or as a volunteer, go speak in person to the MDs of all the parishes in driving distance. They'll tell you what you can expect and what they are looking for.

5. If you want to do the Weddings and Funerals thing, you need to have a regular Sunday morning gig at a big parish with age diversity. If people like you and your singing, they will ask you to sing. Alternatively, it helps to have a lot of cousins (I'm always hearing that "my cousin sings real well, she can do it right?").

6. Even within the context of all of that, there is still a list of repertoire. I don't think it is required for normal Sunday cantoring, but it does come in handy for Weddings, Funerals, and similar gigs. The list has largely already been mentioned above, but here are the highlights, again:

Ave Maria, Schubert (there was a time when EVERYONE asked for this)
Ave Maria, Gounod/Bach
Panis Angelicus, Franck (sung at Ted Kennedy's funeral... Lord knows why...)
On Eagles Wings, Joncas (you WILL be asked to sing this at a funeral, I promise)
Pie Jesu, Faure
Pie Jesu, Lloyd Webber (yeah. someone will ask at some point.)
Jesu Joy of Man's Desiring, Bach

Beyond that, whatever vaguely religious-sounding thing from the latest "Adult Easy Listening Classical" album is likely to get requested. When I was doing this sort of thing a lot, it was Charlotte Church and Sarah Brightman CDs you had to watch out for. Before that it was Celine Dion and Barbara Streisand. Now I think it's Jackie Evancho. If they play it on PBS during Fundraising Season, someone will ask for it at a wedding or funeral.

7. I'm sorry that you feel like your threads keep turning into "flames." I don't think that is actually the case. There is a difference between ignoring your question and pointing out that it isn't the right question to ask. I hope that this post both answers your initial question, and also provides some background as to why it is, really, a question that makes some wrong assumptions about both the realities and the ideals of Catholic music.

In response to Kenneth, the In Paradisum chant is often sung as a solo at many funerals. And most soloists will know how to lead the common Kyrie, Sanctus and Agnus Dei in Latin, along with one of the English variants.

Well, you missed my "find this on Google" line, and I sure hope that somebody doesn't, after all this.

I am contacting my archdiocesan MDs. That's beside the point.

At the National Shrine, I can guarantee you, I have never heard anything like a solo. Also, Prof. Mahrt's Gregorian Mass.

Aside from that, at every single OTHER Catholic Church I have been to has had solos somewhere. In the North Carolina parish I most frequently attended when my father was alive, the music director had a lovely voice and a beautiful spirit, and she pulled them off exactly right, if you are going to do them. So lots of opinions, but for general advice on someone facing the realities of parishes that I know, not a lot of advice. I know what the GIRM says.

The Holy Father gets a lot of solos in his Masses, but he has no control over that--that's the national church he is visiting that makes those calls.

I am talking ONLY about what parishes DO, and what a practically minded person who cannot reject work. There is SOME practical advice in here, but not a lot that has to do with anything that anyone in a lot of parishes will have to face.

But, you know, that happens on this list.

Kenneth

Aside from that, at every single OTHER Catholic Church I have been to has had solos somewhere. In the North Carolina parish I most frequently attended when my father was alive, the music director had a lovely voice and a beautiful spirit, and she pulled them off exactly right, if you are going to do them. So lots of opinions, but for general advice on someone facing the realities of parishes that I know, not a lot of advice. I know what the GIRM says.

I am talking ONLY about what parishes DO, and what a practically minded person who cannot reject work. There is SOME practical advice in here, but not a lot that has to do with anything that anyone in a lot of parishes will have to face.

But, you know, that happens on this list.

Sorry we wasted your time. How can anyone advise you on the realities of parishes you know when you tell us that they totally ignore the GIRM and common practice? How can someone pull off doing something absolutely right that goes against the GIRM and traditional practice in the Cartholic church?

What does a choir singing at the offertory "like the Baptists do" have to do with the catholic church?

Black baptist choirs sing throughout the service. The offertory takes time since it can be the African-American tradition to count the offering and then ask for more, passing the basket around, to the point that the first collection is called the "Penny" collection.

Another conversation to bow out of.

We have solos. Lots of them. There are masses with only cantor leading the congregation at our parish. At these masses the cantor sings a "solo". I think the cantors equate it to what a choir would do when they sing a motet/anthem. I only attend these Masses in the summer when our choir does not sing. I don't know what they sing, but I could ask if you like, Kenneth. I think the cantor sang "All We Like Sheep" from the Messiah on Sunday. Another time it was Schubert's Ave Maria. Sometimes it is a hymn like "The Old Rugged Cross" at a funeral or something from Gather.

Yes, Adam. That's what I meant as well. I've heard a cantor sing songs out of the hymnal, but never any art songs (or even selections from cantatas, oratorios, etc.).

If we're collecting experiences about how commonly we hear solo songs at Masses (excluding those whose music we direct), maybe an informal poll would be in order. Does anyone know how to set one up? My experience is that solos are heard at weddings, funerals, and a few Sundays a year (maybe 6-8).

Gavin's suggestion early on, of hymns, was useful because I am leery-as I said--of anything art-songy. If I am forbidden my preferred choice--a longer chant, something by Hildegard, something like that--then that is a good option for non-dramatic music.

I now REALLY have a hard time figuring out what all the vituperation was about if even someone who spoke so, um, strongly to me now say that he hears several solos a year. How is a free-lance cantor supposed to tell an MD that he refuses to do that? The MD will simply pick someone who will.

MOST of my experience hearing solos would be between Epihpany and Lent and in July and August, when most choirs takes breaks, but that is ALSO when someone who is starting out as a cantor is needed.

The GIRM was more or less sneaked into the Missal without much fanfare. Yes, the new English norms (written in English ,not translated) used the word "chant." It will be decades before the "fourth option" is no long taken as "whatever." Everyone except one very young poster will probably be in a better place by then--and then Ben will be the leader that carried on the work of the CMAA.

As for the not-very -kindly-worded "suggestions" that I do not understand the GIRM, please see this discussion I posted last year and never finished.

http://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/5370/summary-of-norms-for-congregational-singing-for-the-new-missal#Item_7

Kenneth

.

>"he should know none, and do none. Cantors don't sing 'solos'."

Are we getting a little carried away? In the first place, Kenneth doesnt specify that he's specifically out to corrupt Catholic churches. Despite being infected by Richard Crocker's enthusiasm in college, I might never have discovered chant as a living tradition without along the way singing Delius for Unitarians, Brahms for Christian Scientists, Handel for Methodists, Byrd for Anglicans and, penultimately, Bach for Lutherans. I would submit that Catholic churches are not necessarily better served by a know-nothing.

As to Catholic liturgy itself, I don't believe we do it a favor by ruling out Monteverdi, Grandi, or the rest of the treasury of solo motets without thoughtful consideration. At St. David's we regularly use (besides funeral/wedding/15 años fare) Aus liebe will mein Heiland sterben or Komm, süsser Kreutz (as VdG or traverso are available) for Passion Sunday or Good Friday, G. Jeffries Ps. 103 for the Easter Vigil, "I know that my Redeemer liveth" and "The trumpet shall sound" for the early non-choral Easter Mass, and several of Purcell's verse anthems during OT. When there is no choir I would think it ideal to have more than "6-8" solos per year; I might even prefer a steady diet of Bach arias to Palestrina motets. The other kind of solo, in which a cantor pretends to lead a silent congregation in a hymn, gives me the willies and really does deserve to be replaced.