When God really wants to punish someone, he first takes away their mind....

Send them back this message!

Would you expect to have a volunteer brain surgeon work on you voluntarily?
Would you expect the captain at the controls of that airliner, to be a volunteer, carrying around your family?

and on and on.....

To have that beautiful and inspiring music on Sunday, it comes with a price. It means someone has to either find employment which will allow for absences from weekend working, as well as all those solemnities and other holidays. It means sacrificing sitting with family, it means not being able to go with your family anywhere on the weekends, as you are most likely in mass, as well as plenty of other sacrifices.


Sounds like a bunch of out of touch with reality, nuts! You can send them back this message; would they like it if someone volunteered entirely for their profession?

By the way, do you have a link to that forum and thread? I am sure plenty of us would like to chime in.

...and if all the musicians were volunteers then the people could truly participate actively and truly be church, rather than hiring all of these elitists who only want to show off the choir and the organ, and sing music in a dead language that no-one understands... Sorry, I couldn't resist!

Not sure if direct links to other forums are allowed, but I too stumbled upon this thread earlier. It is in the "Liturgy and Sacraments" forum of Catholic Answers Forums. Speaking of which, I often come across threads on there that I wish more of us would see/respond to. I see an awful lot of liturgical music relativism whenever I happen to browse through that forum.

I usually make the argument that the vestments are professionally made, as is the altar, the lighting system, the air conditioning system, the church building itself, etc.

EMHC bring communion to the sick or infirm. An act of charity no doubt, but the Parish Priest actually gets paid to do that.... hmmmmm. Maybe EMHC should bill. Of course they have done years of study and continued research to maintain themselves as EMHC, then they of course continue throughout the week doing other acts of charity like clothing the homeless and feeding the poor every day. Then I am sure they attend seminars and take advanced classes in being a Christian... This is of course how they feed their families. Ooops wait, we shouldn't have professional musicians, instead well intentioned people who sing in tune are needed to provide to the single greatest action that happens on earth. What we need are plumbers and electricians who have the time to study music and liturgy and carry forth the work of the Church. It makes complete sense to me now (again, bad sacrasm)

I should stop now. My tanning has been interrupted.

At the rates that most church musicians are paid, it is an act of charity.

Perhaps we should expect priests not to take a stipend, or that builders should erect churches for only the cost of materials.

Back in the day when there were lots of priests, monks and nuns to do this work for free, it made sense. However, you've got to remember that that laity need to earn their keep - ie put a roof over their heads, food in their bellies and shirts on their backs.

Frankly, you get what you pay for. Organ and Choral music would die without the church, and lots of musicians just couldn't make a living without it.

And think about it this way. It is easy to forget a homily, but one always remembers the words to their favourite hymns.

What most people see of the choir, organist and DM is singing for an hour a week. If that really was the job, then unpaid is fine - and in fact most singers are volunteer. But look at an actual DM job description and you see it's impossible to have another full time job to feed your family.

Parishes exist with no paid musicians at all (including mine). Quality suffers, and it burns people out.

As far as I am aware, there is only one full-time paid position for a church musician in the Catholic Church in Australia.

The rest of us have to do something else for a living. The pay we get for the Sunday masses for which we provide music don't pay our bills. They just stop us from starving.

Yes, Bruckner the Academic who craved the approval of Gustav Mahler who later called him "half man and half God". Bruckner started of course in St Florian but then as a Church musician also in Linz where his skill at improvising and contributions to the sacred repertoire were very important.

RJ Stove

Musician as in ONLY employed to do music? Chances are that that most also have to be the liturgy co-ordinator, and I don't think very many make their living solely from their church work. Most also teach either private lessons or teach in schools to earn their livings.

There could always be positions that I don't know about, but a full-time organist at a church is something I have never encountered anywhere in the Suburbs of Sydney. Most parishes still live under the illusion that talented volunteers are there ready to work for nothing. The fact is that those with real talent are off earning a living elsewhere.

Most of Bruckner's major motets were composed from 1868 onwards, when his primary employment was as an academic and teacher. Even his 7-part Ave Maria and the Afferentur regi were composed at the end of his studies with Simon Sechter in 1861.

St. Florian/Linz period, 1836(?) – 1854

"Pange lingua" C major 1836?/1891 WAB 31
"Libera" F major c. 1843 WAB 21
Two "Asperges me" c. 1844 WAB 3
"Asperges me" in F major c. 1845 WAB 4
"Tantum ergo" A major c. 1845 WAB 43
"Tantum ergo" (Pange lingua) c. 1845 WAB 32
Four "Tantum ergo" B-flat, A-flat, E-flat, C 1846/1888 WAB 41
"Tantum ergo" D major FEB 1846/1888 WAB 42
"Tantum ergo" B-flat major c. 1854 WAB 44
"Libera" F minor 1854 WAB 22

Vienna period, 1861 – 1892

"Ave Maria" for 7-part chorus 1861 WAB 6
"Afferentur regi" 13 December 1861 WAB 1
"Pange lingua" & "Tantum ergo" (Phrygian) 31 January 1868 WAB 33
"Iam lucis orto sidere" 1868/1886 WAB 18
"Inveni David" 21 APRIL 1868 WAB 19
"Locus iste" 11 August 1869 WAB 23
"Christus factus est" 1873 at the earliest WAB 10
"Tota pulchra es Maria" 30 March 1878 WAB 46
"Inveni David" 1879 WAB 20
"Os justi" July 1879 WAB 30
"Ave Maria" in F major 5 February 1882 WAB 7
"Christus factus est" D minor 28 MAY 1884 WAB 11
"Salvum fac populum tuum" 14 November 1884 WAB 40
"Veni Creator Spiritus" 1884 at the latest WAB 50
"Ave Regina caelorum" 1885–88 WAB 8
"Ecce sacerdos magnus" APRIL 1885 WAB 13
"Virga Jesse floruit" 3 September 1885 WAB 52
"Vexilla regis" 9 February 1892 WAB 51

"You get what you pay for."

I always amend that truism to stress: "You are wicked lucky if you get what you pay for."

This is the #1 most frustrating problem for Catholic music today. There is a "rip off" culture alive out there in which talented people are used and used up and walk away bitter. this has been going on for untold decades but it has been worse since the "anything goes" attitude took effect. I've yet to see clear to a way to tackle this problem.

Part of the problem is that places that want free also aren't really interested in high quality, usually.

For example:
I would be willing to direct one (and only one) Sunday Mass for free, in my spare time, if I could do all Propers- chant, polyphony, sacred choral, and some hymnody. Between the Graduale, the SEP, the V2 Hymnal, Chabanel, the PBC and the Catholic Choir Book, music planning time could be greatly reduced, and I would find it a joy to sing and conduct this music without the hassle of figuring out every week what is to be sung.

I imagine there are other people out there who would similarly be willing to step up to one Mass, maybe two on a weekend. (Hence my comment above.)

But the kind of places that want free, also usually want a style of music and music-programming that, while perhaps requiring less skill, certainly takes a lot more time and energy.

If he has done it well, and we assume he has, it means that he has studied those pieces for years; taken hours to disect each pressus and trigon; compared it to St Gall & Laon; copiously marked his Graduale with each additional episema and lequescent that serves the text and the music, and erased many that haven't. This on top of taking some kind of music lessons, probably piano and voice from good teachers. He has spent personal time, money, and energy to attend Chant seminars across the country. I'd say, easily, at a small parish, for one Mass : $100.oo. (At this rate it would take months to pay off the cost of attending one Colloquium (flight, hotel, tuition... presuming my memory and maths are right!).

If he has not done it well, he should be paid just as much so that he can save up and start attending these seminars so that he can learn to do it well.

My answer would be: he should get paid enough to want to do it!

I obviously have a vested interest in good church music salaries. But. As I see it, it takes VERY LITTLE to do the Catholic Mass as it ought to be done. It's us who are jacking up the requirements by adding organs, hymns, choirs, etc. NOT that any of that is remotely bad or trivial - IT ISN'T!! But, at a very basic level, Catholic music is really quite simple. Show up, sing the squares.

That's why, even though I don't practice Catholicism, and haven't been in a Catholic job in 5 years, I still love the tradition. It can be SO very basic. And it can be so complex and lovely - which is even better. But there's still nothing wrong with an amateur showing up with his Graduale and just singing. As I recall, some of the leadership of the CMAA do just that.

I say, pay for what you want. If you want chant propers, unaccompanied, little to nothing will get you the musical leadership you need. If you want organ and brass and hymns and five choirs, you need to PAY FOR IT!

Something tells me the people who are quoted in the original post don't want someone to come in for free and chant from the Graduale.

Salieri

The idea that singing chant decently requires such masters-level skills and preparation (the St. Gall & Laon.... really?) is part of the mindset that many of us are trying to combat. What you suggest also implies that I should have to go to Seminary before I can pray the creed, or that I should know Latin and Greek before I respond with my "And with your spirit."

Please, please, don't get me wrong, Adam, et al.

I firmly believe that anyone can sing chant, but, it does not mean that anyone can automatically sight read Siderunt Principes. What I was trying to get at is that even just "showing up, opening the Graduale, and singing" requires a lot of work. I do not have a master's - I don't even have a bachelor's - but I spent years learning how to chant under the tutilege of a former Benedictine Monk using the Solesmes method. I personally prefer "Semiology", but learning where to place the ictus in traditional Solesmes Method takes time and practise.

I can now, after 10 years of practising and studying, sing much of the Graduale - with practise - not at sight; but two years ago it was a struggle to get through Christus Factus Est, and two years before that Kyrie Fons Bonitatis was a struggle; nine years ago, I shudder to think how aweful my rendition of 'Adoro te' must have been! And, after ten, years I can still manage to change keys three times during a gradual, and sing a podatus backwards!

You don't have to have a master's to sing chant : the beginning scholas at the Colloquium are proof of that, but you do need to learn - somehow - and practise...a lot. It takes hours of practise to hone one's craft as a musician, whether in chant or any other form of music - even popular musics. And I believe too, that part of the reason why most churches do not want to pay adequate salaries for musicians is that they don't take into account that even a beginning organist needs to practice for hours before he's ready to play AURELIA. The powers that be seem to think - in my experience anyway - "Why do we need to pay him so much, he's only here for an hour each week, and he doesn't even play the whole hour!"

We seem to take liturgical music for granted. It's always been there (of one quality or another) and it always will be.

Please forgive the blabbering, and also forgive me if I seem rather ascerbic. I do not intend to offend, and if I have please tell me and I will remove my postings.

You don't need to be a monk to sing chant well. Start with the basics and work your way up. I think that Adam Barlett's SEP is a great places to start, especially the 7 Ad Libitum Communion Antiphons.

People forget that the performance of music is only one aspect. Then there are the hours that one puts into rehearsal and preparation. I've spoken with several musicians who say basically that they can't afford to work for less than $100 per hour when performing.

For every hour of performing a musician does, abotu 4 or 5 hours of preparation go into it. Suddenly, you realise that musicians are not particularly well-paid.

free help is almost always impossible to control

Well, correct, but control is more an abuse than the purpose of the Church's hierarchical structure. We are not supposed to behave well out of fear of earthly loss but rather we ought to obey lawful commands out of desire for Heavenly good. Those (liturgy committee members, for example) who desire control do not like to be reminded that their liturgical abuses are unlawful and do not deserve obedience. They want to be the ones to decide these matters in accordance with their (dim) lights.

I'll reiterate that there are great arguments for paying Church musicians, but there cannot really be arguments against volunteer Church musicians, in principle. Cf., De Musica Sacra:

101. It would be ideal, and worthy of commendation if organists, choir directors, singers, instrumentalists, and others engaged in the service of the Church, would contribute their talents for the love of God, and in the spirit of religious devotion, without salary; should they be unable to offer their services free of charge, Christian justice, and charity demand that the church give them a just wage, according to the recognized standards of the locality, and provisions of law.

102. The local Ordinary should, after consultation with the diocesan commission of sacred music, fix a scale of wages to be observed throughout the diocese for the various offices mentioned in the previous paragraph.

103. An adequate program of social security should also be set up for these persons in accordance with civil law; if the law makes no provisions, the local Ordinary himself should make regulations regarding social security.

In the 1950's on some parishes, benediction was almost daily and the Tantum sung. This is before the OF became the one-size-fits-all liturgy.

Are we all aware that benediction Tantum is to be sung only in Latin?

I for one have no issue with not being paid. I lead one mass (Sunday 8am, that I would attend anyway), one rehearsal (Tues eve 7-8pm) and choose the songs. Maybe an extra hour. So I put in about 3 hours / week. At Advent / Christmas and Lent / Easter I'll put in more but I don't mind. I never went to college for music but have a love for it. I am a decent singer so I try to give my talents back.

I am trying to convince our parish that we need a DM. Someone with a college degree in music and the liturgy. Someone who will at least communicate with the whole group. They just don't have it in the budget. I will keep pushing for it.

I just need to be careful what I wish for a DM may come from a mind that I don't care for, then what?

Matthew, please don't be so quick to dismiss those with liturgy degrees. It depends on where the liturgy degree is from (and when)! Some of us are getting a very good liturgical education...

Interesting comments!