Comparison of Hymnals: St. Michael, Vatican II, Worship IV, Adoremus, etc.

Kathy

One test of a hymnal is its influence, how many of its original hymns are carried through to new generations. We may not live to know the success or failure of Worship IV on that measure, particularly since really great hymns last the test of centuries.

Fr. Joncas once remarked in a lecture that American Catholicism had produced no outstanding hymn writers. This was some time ago, and it could be that he has changed his view since.

I'm reminded of the very high standard given in John Wesley's preface to his 1780 Hymnal, A Collection of Hymns, for the Use of the People Called Methodists. Wesley writes:

May I be permitted to add a few words with regard to the poetry ? Then I will speak to those who are judges thereof, with all freedom and unreserve. To these I may say, with-out offence, 1. In these hymns there is no doggerel ; no botches ; nothing put in to patch up the rhyme ; no feeble expletives. 2. Here is nothing turgid or bombast, on the one hand, or low and creeping, on the other. 3. here are no cant expressions ; no words without meaning. Those who impute this to us, know not what they say. We talk common sense, both in prose and verse, and use no words but in a fixed and determinate sense. 4. Here are, allow me to say, both the purity, the strength, and the elegance of the English language; and, at the same time, the utmost simplicity and plainness, suited to every capacity. Lastly, I desire men of taste to judge, (these are the only competent judges,) whether there be not in some of the following hymns the true spirit of poetry, such as cannot be acquired by art and labour, but must be the gift of nature. By labour, a man may become a tolerable imitator of Spenser, Shakspeare, or Milton ; and may heap together pretty compound epithets, as pale-eyed, meek-eyed, and the like ; but unless he be born a poet, he will never attain the genuine spirit of poetry.

Personally, when I read a new hymn, or evaluate my own, I look primarily for poetic density, and then for excellence of craft. (Doctrinal fidelity isn't part of the evaluation process, in my opinion. Without doctrinal fidelity, a hymn shouldn't even begin to be considered.) Excellence of craft comes second. What is most important is the poetic density. Of course we all know what a great language English is for poetry, how Shakespeare and Hopkins have shown how much can be done with such a linguistically rich (if rhyme-poor) language. And it's not just in the grand speeches that the spark that singles out poetry from verse makes itself known. Think of how even the throwaway lines of Shakespeare's plays--the lines that are little more than stage direction--are beautiful and meaningful. They are "charged" with poetry, much the same as, in Hopkin's phrase, "The world is charged with the grandeur of God."

FRANCISCO
I think I hear them. Stand, ho! Who's there?

Enter HORATIO and MARCELLUS
HORATIO
Friends to this ground.

MARCELLUS
And liegemen to the Dane.

FRANCISCO
Give you good night.

***

Enter BANQUO, and FLEANCE bearing a torch before him
BANQUO
How goes the night, boy?

FLEANCE
The moon is down; I have not heard the clock.

BANQUO
And she goes down at twelve.

FLEANCE
I take't, 'tis later, sir.

The poetic strength of Shakespeare comes through at every point of his writings. Charles Wesley is ordinarily like this, and yet perhaps the best hymnwriter in English from this standpoint is William Cowper. This is how he wrote what we might consider his "hymn of the day" for Trinity Sunday, Cycle C. Try singing this to Aurelia, and see how you feel.

1 ERE God had built the mountains,
Or raised the fruitful hills,
Before He filled the fountains
That feed the running rills,
In Me from everlasting,
The wonderful I AM
Found pleasures never wasting,
And Wisdom is My name.

2 When like a tent to dwell in,
He spread the skies abroad,
And swathed about the swelling
Of ocean's mighty flood,
He wrought by weight and measure;
And I was with Him then,
Myself the Father's pleasure,
And Mine, the sons of men.

3 Thus Wisdom’s words discover
Thy glory and Thy grace,
Thou everlasting lover
Of our unworthy race!
Thy gracious eye survey’d us
Ere stars were seen above;
In wisdom Thou hast made us,
And died for us in love.

4 And couldst Thou be delighted
With creatures such as we,
Who, when we saw Thee, slighted,
And nailed Thee to the tree?
Unfathomable wonder,
And mystery divine!
The voice that speaks in thunder,
Says, "Sinner I am thine".

CharlesW

My issue with those multiple texts to the same hymn tune, is the traditional hymns that were left out. I am still stuck with Ritual Song for the next couple of years. "Ah, Holy Jesus" would have been a great alternative to one of the "Ode to Joy" texts, to be sure.

JennyH

Daniel, I tried to comment on your hymnal blog entry, but comments are closed. Regarding the above, I would be interested to know Fr. Chepponis' opinion of the *quality* of some of the GIA poetry texts. Daniel Craig already cites an example:

You are called to set the table, / Blessing bread as Jesus blessed,
Then to come with thirst and hunger, / Needing care like all the rest.
Christ be known in all our sharing, / Feeding all with signs of love.

benedictgal

Jenny, I have to agree with you. GIA's quality control has gone down significantly since the revised Worship III book. There is also a risk one makes when setting slipshod texts to solid music. Just as it is a bad thing to set beautiful and sacred texts to bad music, when we do the reverse, it tends to cheaper the outcome.

There really is no need to use the same piece of music a gillion times. It winds up turning something beautiful and familiar into something mundane and boring.

Ragueneau

It has been suggested that the word "Hymnal" is not appropriate for the Vatican II Hymnal because it contains so much. I would welcome this opportunity to share some thoughts about this.

I acknowledge this fact, but I would like to point out that Catholic musical books in general are difficult to assign a truly "perfect" title, because they contain so many different elements.

For instance, a "Graduale" or "Liber Gradualis" usually contains much more than just the Graduale Romanum. It often has the Kyriale, the "Common tones," etc. Certainly the "Liber Usualis" is not the most accurate term for what the book contains.

There are other examples, too. The Manuale Missae et Officiorum (Solesmes 1902) contains all kinds of things. The Manual of Gregorian chant (Solesmes 1903) contains all kinds of things, as well. The Manuel de chant (Mohr 1903) contains numerous things. Offices de l'Eglise le rit romain (1887 Rheims/Cambrai) has the entire Graduale, Kyriale, all the readings, etc.

In summary, those who wish to learn what the V2H is all about are encouraged to read the Author's Preface.

When I hear that V2H is not really a "hymnal," I am reminded of this excerpt:

"Like all other liturgical functions, like offices and ranks in the Church, indeed like everything else in the world, the religious service that we call the Mass existed long before it had a special technical name." —Rev. Adrian Fortescue (The Mass: A Study of the Roman Liturgy, 397)

As an aside, that entire chapter by Fortescue is fantastic. (The whole book is, too.)

SanAntonioCath

I agree with DanielC: Worship IV was a huge disappointment. More of the same: more of the same.

@redsox, are you telling me GIA could not find any space in their more than 1300 pages to include the Mass propers? I was extremely please to see that the Vatican II Hymnal includes the complete propers. The St. Michael made an effort to include the spoken entrance antiphons, but the Richard Rice versions they chose abbreviate the texts. For instance, here is the entrance antiphon for the 2nd Sunday of Advent (spoken):

O people of Sion, behold,
the Lord will come to save the nations,
and the Lord will make the glory of his voice heard
in the joy of your heart.

But the text given in St. Michael's Hymnal is:

"People of Zion, the Lord will come to save all nations."

Is that to make it easier to sing?

Gavin

Fr. Chepponis, I apologize for my callous remarks against your company. It was an unwarranted attack, and I regret having phrased my point in such an incendiary manner. If it is any explanation, I'm quite prone to exaggeration, hyperbole, and even the TOTALLY RARE fit of sarcasm. I would hate for GIA's fine product line to be maligned on the basis of my weak rhetoric above.

That being said, I do not distance myself from my ill-made point: GIA's products, historically, DO contain a large number (at least as it seems to me) of newly-composed texts, which are frequently set to a small number of tunes. I flipped open my accompaniment edition of "Ritual Song", and a brief perusal of the Tune Index found the following:

Hymn tunes with four texts each: ELLACOMBE, ERHALT UNS HERR, HOLY MANNA, HYMN TO JOY, LASST UNS ERFREUEN.

Hymn tunes with three texts each: BEACH SPRING, DIX, KINGSFOLD, LAND OF REST, NETTLETON, O WALY WALY, PASSION CHORALE, PICARDY, TALLIS' CANON

Hymn tunes with two texts each: More than 20.

Texts set to BUNESSAN: 5.

Now, is this a desirable practice? I think not, but I hope we can all agree to disagree. It certainly has precedent. Are these texts ones which the consumer wishes to use? I will not make judgment against individual pieces or authors, as I believe charity and the rules of this forum forbid it. I will say there are some lamentable currents in the modern hymnography world, just as there are many fine living authors. Abusus non tollit legem, or however that goes.

So I leave the careful consumer (caveat emptor) to make his own decisions, but I will not hear it said that one is getting a higher value out of a 981-page hymnal than out of one with 200 hymns.

ryand

redsox1,

Is the Holy Mass about the community or God?

To whom are our prayers directed?

redsox1

SanAntonioCath: There are multiple sources for the propers. Which ones should be included? Graduale Romanum, Graduale Simplex, By Flowing Waters, Simple English Propers, those set by Healy Willan, Columba Kelly, etc. etc., or another newly composed set. Which translation? My choir sings propers from several different sources. I'd just assume use a worship aid to include the antiphons if they are being done congregationally, which is pretty much a contemporary practice anyway.

Gavin: The "value" something has depends, to a great extent, on the person assigning that value. My personal preferences are certainly in one direction, and I can assure you that I have the musical "chops", training, and experience to back it up. Ministry is always a challenge, especially in a large community. I go back to my last post- we need to minister to all, meet them where they are, push, prod, etc. to move things forward. This won't happen overnight. It's a shame we have lost several generations. Alienating the people in the pews with abrupt changes that are perceived as arbitrary won't help the cause. Teaching with patience and earning their trust-this makes all the difference. Again, I certainly don't defend EVERY piece of music or text in Worship IV. It's the best resource available for OUR community.

Ryand: I'm well aware of where are prayers are directed, but the communitarian nature of the Eucharistic is not some footnote in liturgical theology. That being said, I strongly feel that the pendulum swung way too far in that direction, especially many of the hymns of the Gather variety and we have needed to find some sort of equilibrium. The sense of awe and mystery is far too often lacking, even on the surface level, in the liturgy in too many places. I chose to go to a place that is large and diverse and that many on this post would dismiss as one of "those suburban megachurches." This is precisely the type of place where one can really make a difference and help to build a trend of music that is fitting for the Church's liturgy. The process is not easy, and it certainly is not quick!

To close, I would just say that I greatly admire the work being done by CMAA. This is a voice that needs to be heard. Please understand, however, that there is a reality many of us especially in full-time ministry face. I have watched too many dedicated and talented colleagues either be fired, or leave a church in disgust after experiencing real hostility from their community, because unfortunately, their ministry skills didn't match their musicianship. The challenges are great but the results, as slow as they can seem sometimes, are very rewarding.

DanielC

From Kathy (above): "Doctrinal fidelity isn't part of the evaluation process, in my opinion. Without doctrinal fidelity, a hymn shouldn't even begin to be considered."

This is of course the most important point to be made. I would even venture to take this a step further and say that a hymn should truly be a sacred prayer of the Sacred Liturgy, not a simplistic or overused text set to mediocre music. As I tried to point out in my article, some hymnals seem to do a better job than others of keeping solid theology the most important focus.

Even though I am most interested in the content of the hymns, I must say that the beautiful, traditional tunes, of which the Church has a rich treasury, do seem to add more of a sense of wonder, majesty, and reverence to the liturgy. A majority of what I call "guitar hymns," which I experience regularly in the college setting, seem to me quite theologically watered down, and some even strike me as being "unbecoming to the holiness of the place, the dignity of the Liturgy and the devotion of the faithful," which as Musicam Sacram says, "must be avoided."

Thank you all for your many and varied comments. I really appreciate this discussion!

JennyH

DanielC said: A majority of what I call "guitar hymns," which I experience regularly in the college setting, seem to me quite theologically watered down, and some even strike me as being "unbecoming to the holiness of the place, the dignity of the Liturgy and the devotion of the faithful," which as Musicam Sacram says, "must be avoided."

AMEN, BROTHER!!!

Ragueneau

There are multiple sources for the propers. Which ones should be included? Graduale Romanum, Graduale Simplex, By Flowing Waters, Simple English Propers, those set by Healy Willan, Columba Kelly, etc. etc., or another newly composed set. Which translation? My choir sings propers from several different sources. I'd just assume use a worship aid to include the antiphons if they are being done congregationally, which is pretty much a contemporary practice anyway.

redsox1, I agree totally, which is the reason for our choice in the Vatican II Hymnal. By clearly printing the English texts (with Latin incipit), our hymnal has the requisite flexibility to suit any of the various methods of singing the Propers, whether the Simple English Propers, the Simple English Psalm Tones, the Roman Gradual, Latin Psalm Tones, and so forth. Had we chosen just ONE setting (say, that of Fr. Samuel Weber, or that of Fr. Columba Kelly) it would have severely limited the usefulness of the Hymnal.

SanAntonioCath

Daniel, reading for the second time your reviews—this time more carefully—has been like water in the desert.

Somewhere on this forum was mentioned the 1984 edition of Glory & Praise hymnal. This is the self-same book I grew up with as a kid—in my rich, suburban Catholic parish during the 1990's. I took a glance through it, and was astounded at the "walk" down memory lane. All the songs I remember perfectly as if it were yesterday:

"Ashes" by Tom Conry
"Anthem" by Tom Conry
"Abba, Father" by Carey Landry
"Till the end of my days, O Lord" by Dan Shutte
"Amazing Grace"
"Be Not Afraid" by Bob Dufford
"For You are my God" by John Foley
"Glory and Praise to our God" by Dan Schutte
"Great things happen when God mixes with us" by Carey Landry (sung with gusto)
"Hail Mary: Gentle Woman" by Carey Landry
"Only a Shadow" by Carey Landry ("The dream I have today, my Lord, is only a shadow of your dreams for me")
"Peace is flowing like a river" (Landry)
"Peace Prayer" by John Foley
"Sing a new song" by Dan Schutte
"Sing to the mountains" by Bob Dufford
"Though the mountains may fall" by Dan Schutte
"Turn to me, Oh turn and be saved" by John Foley
"Yahweh, I know You are near" by Dan Schutte

I could keep going, on and on, listing hundreds of others by Roc O'connor, Michael Joncas, and many others. I remember them all, now that I look at them.

My question is: where was the outrage at these travesties? Who spoke out? Looking at this now, as someone who is trying to bring authentic Catholic liturgy to the small campus parish where I direct, I cannot believe the type of things perpetrated on us when I was young. Here are some examples:

Glory and Praise (Parish Music Program ©1984): page 206

We see God in His people ev'rywhere;
We see God in His people ev'rywhere;
When His people love and care,
When His people give and share,
we see God in His people ev'rywhere.

Glory and Praise (Parish Music Program ©1984): page 232 : "Rainbow"

I'd like to be a rainbow and promise life to you.

All the joy we know now
has come because we share;
dividing up the sorrow
makes it easier to bear.

There's much that we'll discover
on roads where love will lead;
we'll come to know our own heart
as we answer each one's need.

For in the life we promise
there's more to what we share;
To lose ourselves in giving
is to find God hidden there.

A rainbow makes a promise
that life is here to stay;
Promise means there's more to life
than what we know today.

I can share tomorrow,
if there's one to pledge it to.
I'd like to be a rainbow and promise life to you.

Daniel, your reviews have given me hope that more Catholic publications are now available. But why was nobody willing to stand up against the nonsense in the 1980's?

CharlesW

I called "Glory and Praise" trash when I first encountered it. We had a crazy organist at the time, who would do things like hold a chord, and turn off the organ and let the sound die away. It was wretchedly out of tune as the wind pressure dropped. He conned the pastor into buying that "hymnal" - and I use the word loosely. Fortunately, he didn't last long at the parish. When the new pastor arrived, copies of G&P were carried unceremoniously to the dumpster.

In my wicked youth, I often entertained the thought that the New Madrid fault could act up and nail the St. Louis Jesuits instantly. Of course, I repented of my wicked ways when I got older. ;-)

The parish can not afford new hymnals at the moment, but the Vatican II looks like the best one available at this time. I will definitely keep it in mind.

Gavin

"why was nobody willing to stand up against the nonsense in the 1980's?"

By most accounts I've heard, the answer is "because it was better than what came before." It was better than mimeographed Beatles lyrics, or en masse hand gestures, or whatever else silliness went on in the late 60s and early 70s. And the propers weren't on the radar back then. One REALLY has to ask, on what authority can one say the hymns quoted above are inferior to a protestant chorale, and convince others of this? The propers have the force of legislation behind them, but the 4-hymn-sandwich, with a slightly different filler, doesn't. Willy The High School Guitarist wasn't leading everyone in "a hip song I wrote about Jesus" anymore, and that was all that mattered to a lot of people.

Another factor is that, in those days, this was THE model of church music. It was done everywhere, always, and by all. That was simply What We Do Now, and if you wanted to work in church music, this was what you did. One of my early mentors was a fantastic concert pianist, who had served church music since the 40s. He was trained in chant and choral technique, understood the documents and the liturgy. In about 2003, he wrote a Mass in which every movement sounds like a doo-wop song from the 50s. Terrible music. But that's what church music was for most of the time he'd been at it. I have another teacher, same exact story. Venerable church musician with decades of service and his fingerprints on the whole area's music scene (church and otherwise). I won't mention his name, as he wrote a widely-mocked setting of the Mass published by a major composer. Because "that's what church music is."

I suspect that in 30 years, people will look back at much of what we do here and ask the same questions: why was no one standing up to the four-hymn-sandwich? Why did no one speak up against singing the same psalm tone every week for the propers? Why were people accompanying chant?

I guess one generation's improvement is another's shame.

CharlesW

Having lived through all of the above, another thing fails to get mentioned. The music was not that great in many places before the Council. It wasn't that great a step downward to go from pre-Council mediocre, to post-Council wretched. I suppose my parish was fortunate, except for the short G&P phase, to use The People's Mass Book and Worship II for many years. Those were far better than what was being used in many places.

Gavin

Exactly, CharlesW.

M. Jackson Osborn

Gavin's assessment of the insidious establishmentarian nature of the musics of this period are quite accurate. Only needing to be mentioned is that there were, in fact, many of us who objected both politely and vociferously, all to no avail. We were a voice crying in the desert, and those to whom we spoke had the glass eyes and unflinching faces of those who believe themselves to be oracles of divine wisdom.

DanielC

:) I wasn't around yet back then, but I can surely sympathize. Just imagining the poor-quality music I periodically hear today being at every single Mass at the vast majority of parishes is enough to make me incredibly thankful for the progress we have made. I do agree with Gavin's point that people will look back at our time and see that it is still by no means perfect.
Thanks be to God for the steady progress we're making now, with the growing use of solid Hymnals and the propers again!!

Bobby Bolin

My question is: Who is Worship IV aimed at? I can't see one audience that it fits perfectly. We've seen all the criticism on this conservative-minded forum. I think most of the "Glory and Praise" generation are pretty well set in their ways and do not need a new hymnal. I consider myself pretty moderate when it comes to music. I do not hate "On Eagle's Wings" or "Here I Am, Lord." That being said I also like chant and traditional hymns. I think that GIA missed badly by adding new texts to familiar hymn tunes. The most familiar hymn tunes can be associated with one or two texts and it just seems wrong to sing a different text to those tunes. The biggest mistake they made, in my opinion, is leaving out some of the hymns that were successful in Worship III (Sing Alleluia, Praise the Lord and Those Who Love and Those Who Labor set to DOMHNACH TRIONOIDE immediately come to mind). They seem to have lost both the traditional and contemporary. I think GIA had a chance to make an awesome hymnal and dropped the ball pretty badly.

Couple other observations:
1. A Living Faith? Really? Not fooling anyone.
2. GIA's new mass settings are utterly atrocious.
3. It's exciting to see revisions to Proulx's Missa Emmanuel, Corpus Christi and Land of Rest. Now we need to see revisions of the stuff from Jonathan Tuuk and David Hurd.

My intention isn't really to slam GIA but to get a better feel for what their goals are. It seems as if they are trying to please everyone but are just watering it down for all involved.

Mike R

@redsox1 and @JMO - I somewhat disagree. I like having a setting of at least some of the proper antiphons in our hymnals (from By Flowing Waters in Liturgical Press's Sacred Song). Sure, they may not be everyone's favorite all the time (though, frankly, the antiphons are done very, very well), but they make it easy for a parish (or in our case campus ministry) to promote the propers, moreso than printing the text does. If we had to publish a worship aid to utilize the propers, it simply would not happen. But with the BFW antiphons (and sometimes the Psallite antiphons), we do use them occasionally. Our tendency, being located so close to St. Meinrad Archabbey, is to use the Meinrad Psalm tones by Fr. Kelly, which are easy enough to match up by mode, just as one could easily match up the SEP Psalm tones, etc.

Not that I'm disagreeing about printing the proper texts - they absolutely should be included in any missal or hymnal that includes the daily readings. But I do like having some musical setting of proper antiphons printed directly in the hymnal as well.

I have only ever encountered weekly printed worship aids (or, for that matter, choir directors paid anything more than a small stipend) when I've lived in large cities.

redsox1

Mike R-I think you make a good point. I don't disagree. I think it's hard to decide, though. I wonder about a seasonal worship aid, or even a yearly insert for this purpose. We are developing one to include in the cover of our hymnals. I'm looking at following the Graduale Simplex model-more seasonal antiphons that would be easier for the congregation to grasp. I think it's wonderful that the proper texts are included in the Vatican II hymnal. It's a huge step forward. I wonderful if only providing the printed text will get the desired response from the congregation. I think it's find with psalm responses-they tend to be much shorter. I do think GIA should have better addressed it. I think the index in the back utilizing the psalter is not enough!

Bobby Bolin-Worship IV has it's issues, although a large core of strong, venerable hymns is included. There will be a difference of opinion about the newer texts. I don't have a problem with using familiar tunes with these new texts. The text is what is most important anyway and if a familiar (and hopefully strong) tune allows for a better response, that's fine with me. Obviously, care has to be taken to match the text with a tune that will support it rhetorically and that tune cannot be overused!

In terms of new Mass settings, with the exception of the Guimont and Chepponis, I'm not too thrilled. However, I'm quite pleased with many of the revised settings, including those you listed above.

We're a pretty middle-of-the-road place, so Worship IV was the best choice for us. We'll supplement with propers and additional hymnody in our insert.

BachLover2

I suspect that in 30 years, people will look back at much of what we do here and ask the same questions: Why were people accompanying chant?

I doubt that ...

Ragueneau

I suspect that in 30 years, people will look back at much of what we do here and ask the same questions: why was no one standing up to the four-hymn-sandwich? Why did no one speak up against singing the same psalm tone every week for the propers? Why were people accompanying chant?

Gavin, are you trying to bear-bait me? :-)

;-)

JennyH

"Yahweh, I know You are near" by Dan Schutte

I don't think this can be sung anymore, due to a recent document by the Vatican.

Bobby Bolin

It's now "O Lord, I know You are near"

Charles in CenCA

By most accounts I've heard, the answer is "because it was better than what came before." Gavin.

That is as cogent an answer as ever will be said. Like CW, I was there through it all, starting at ground zero of the Left Coast, Oakland Cathedral in 1970, and it all seemed a glorious mess. But more to the point remains the fact that the evolution of "new" DNA strands of music (as chronicled by Ken Canedo's book) were truly embraced by both musicians and congregations in that era, to both the detriment and consternation of more insightful colleagues who thankfully held fast to the inestimabile donum. There is no inherent shame to be ascribed to composers, even Conry, for how things went down. To what benefit is it to pit Gelineau's efforts versus Deiss'? Or the Dameans v. the SLJ's, or St. Thomas More v. the Minnesotans (Joncas/Haas/Haugen)?
Decrying it won't stop folks asking for OEW or "Be not afraid" for gramma's funeral, just as they also still ask for "In the garden" or "The old rugged cross (and where'd they get that from, the spirit of V2?).
The real joy is to be found in that old folks like myself stayed with the developments, learned from our mistaken notions, learned from the mistaken notions of the nostalgia purveyed as more noble by our pre-concilior predecessors, and have joined with "comrades" who now benefit by more reasoned, rational and researched insights into our legislative history and documents. And with the genius and muscle of our young colleagues are trying, with and by the grace of God, to recover that which is sacred and proper to fit worship of God.
If we start felicitious arguments about future recollections of chant: accompanied or unaccompanied, we'll still be missing the point in much the same manner we've missed it in the last half century. We'll be imitating talking heads like Magister.

DanielC

Good point, Charles!!

It certainly is such a joy to see all age groups joining together "to recover that which is sacred and proper to fit worship of God." I comment about my peers at school, but I know lots of people of all ages who have taught me and helped me, and who continue working to bring true sacred beauty to the liturgy; as well as those of all ages who simply recognize and appreciate sacred liturgies.

It just goes to show how timeless and ageless the liturgy is, and how we all must work to give it the proper reverence that the Church prescribes.

SanAntonioCath

I don't think this can be sung anymore, due to a recent document by the Vatican.

Yes, I've also heard this. The Vatican has made it clear that the name "Yahweh" cannot be used in Catholic music. I believe there's a chapter on this in Sing like a Catholic.

Ragueneau

It certainly is such a joy to see all age groups joining together "to recover that which is sacred and proper to fit worship of God.

Yes! Yes! Yes!

JennyH

What are some of the easiest, most well-loved hymns that our parish can start singing to get away from glory & praise music? And does everyone here agree about the sacredness of these hymns? I often find that I like a tune, but the words are trite. On occasion, I will love the words, and switch the tune, but I have difficulty doing this and sometimes the congregation doesn't like it.

DanielC

I use these a lot.

Also, I was just contacted about another solid Catholic hymnal that I had not heard of... As soon as my copy arrives, I will add it to this review.

Stay tuned!

Ragueneau

JennyH, perhaps that would be a nice Forum Post?

DanielC, interesting: may we have the name?

DanielC

It is the Summit Choirbook, published in 1983 by the Dominican nuns at the Monastery of Our Lady of the Rosary. I'm not exactly sure what it's like yet, but I look forward to finding out!

ScottKChicago

I've got a Summit Choirbook. It's a rich, high-quality resource, especially for temporal and sanctoral hymns. A lot of real gems in there with well-selected (and sometimes unique and obscure) tunes and harmonizations.

DanielC

That sounds extremely interesting! I can't wait to see it!!

I also received this comment via email, and wanted to post it here:

"I just discovered, and read, your hymnal comparisons. Very interesting, and as I have seen only 2 of these, it's nice to have a source that has already seen some of the advantages and disadvantages of each. My parish has delayed for quite a few years, the selection and purchase of a new hymnal. First, because the 'rumor' of the revised translation was being bandied about; second, of those we had looked at, the so-called (self-called) 'expert' musicians could not agree between themselves what was the better choice, let alone those who were on the liturgical committee and hymnal selection committee.

I would love to have someone of knowledge - and not being paid by a particular publisher - come in and address this issue. I agree with your analysis that what happens in the Mass has a much higher degree of concern an addition to the Mass settings and Propers, over any and all 'hymns' that are contained within the front and back covers.

And, I love the Gregorian chant! When done well, it really speaks to me spiritually and lifts me to a more prayerful (and active) participation in the Mass."

Ragueneau

Daniel, very cool. Let me know when you review the Summit Choirbook, and I will post it on the CCW Blog entry.

DanielC

JMO-

Thank you, I certainly will!

benedictgal

After much prayer, I have decided to formally submit my OCP arsenal to the Holy See for its review. This includes the latest incarnation of Flor y Canto. After having put up with the Candeo/Hurd "Alleluia" as the recessional (sounds like a mishmash of jazz, blues and Gospel, I decided that at some point, enough is enough.

If the CDWDS ever gets a round to actually implementing the goal of having a division on Architecture and Sacred Music, this collection should be the first one scrutinized.

ContraBombarde

We just canceled our automatic order of the Music Issue and Today's Missal.

I am currently waiting for my Vatican II, and Gather 4, to review. The only issue given to me by my pastor is, the hymnal must have the readings.

I felt so good calling OCP to cancel, and guess what?!?! they didn't even seem to care. lol

ContraBombarde

Ok, I just got my Vatican II sample today, to go over and compare. My pastor and a few others on the pastoral team, are reviewing hymnals.

I absolutely love the Vatican II hymnal. Very nice! One thing I do note is, and this is just a thought to think about, but, it might be wise to produce a larger print edition as well, if financially feasable. The reason being, the older communities may have a little trouble reading the readings. I know that really they should just been listening to, and meditating on the word, but the honest truth is, the older people are going to whine, moan, and groan, if they can't read.

Just a thought, but otherwise, a very nice hymnal. I like the color of the hymnal,,,, it shows with great pride!

Ragueneau

Dear MichaelM,

I want to thank you for sharing your thoughts. Regarding the font size, I agree that we need to seriously consider whether it will be possible to do a large print edition. However, that would not take place for a considerable period of time due to the very small size of our organization.

The reason we opted to use a smaller font (although it is the same size as the font used for the readings in GIA's RitualSong) is that if the Vatican II Hymnal were much larger, it would not fit comfortably inside some pew holders (a "game changer" for many parishes).

For myself, I think some the strongest points in favor of the V2H are the thousands of free "supporting organ" scores (and videos) online, and the fact that we include the complete Sung Propers.

We are grateful for your kind thoughts & comments, we look forward to always improving, we admit our faults, and hope to keep serving the Lord & moving forward.

ContraBombarde

Hi Jeff,

No problem. It was just a thought. I know some of the pew holders are probably of issue. I was just thinking of the whining that might come of it. I have never seen a copy of Ritual Song, so I couldn't comment as to it's fonts. I have had a parish that used GIA's Gather 2 comprehensive. I would get sporadic comments about the size. All in all, it still beats having those disposable messes, thrown all around the pew holders and pews.

Just today, I went in to do a 40 hrs adoration closing mass, and was trying to meditate and pray before mass, and was disturbed and motified to see the how people have left the condition of some of the dispoable aids. Some books pulled out of those garbage dust covers, and others missing one of the two books.

Nothing beats having a good permanent hymnal/readings in the pews. You definitely have a very nice hymnal. I was very impressed, and hopefully the pastoral team will heed my advice.

They certainly didn't when I recommended the new masses for the RM3. Now I'm stuck with another Marty Haugen winner. It's like dying inside each weekend. We are using storrington mass. :o( Please pray for us!

veromary

How does the VII hymnal go with the 1962 Mass/EF? From memory it has the ordinary but what about the readings/propers?
Not trying to be narky. I've been doing a book for my local FSSP parish with hymns, kyriale, readings and would be good if it were redundant.
Also The Hymnal 1940 sounds great - how does it compare with Hymns Ancient and Modern? Or is this related to The English Hymnal (that some are having a go at digitising at ehymnal.wikispaces.com)

Ragueneau

veromary,

Could you please E-mail me privately?

THANKS!

jeff@ccwatershed.org

JennyH

I take it the answer to my earlier question was ... no? :)

veromary

Hi Jenny, maybe start a new thread so your question doesn't get lost in the banter about books. I'm sure there are lots of thoughts on favourite hymns to get started on. Or they'll say: see the Vatican II hymnbook!
I like switching tunes too. We recently did The Lord's my Shepherd to the tune of While Shepherds Watched Their Flocks. People joined in and no complaints afterwards.

SanAntonioCath

Just today, I went in to do a 40 hrs adoration closing mass, and was trying to meditate and pray before mass, and was disturbed and mortified to see the how people have left the condition of some of the disposable aids. Some books pulled out of those garbage dust covers, and others missing one of the two books. Nothing beats having a good permanent hymnal/readings in the pews.

I agree!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Same experience where I minister.

Ragueneau

A REVIEW BY DEACON CUNNINGHAM

Jeffrey Ostrowski and the Corpus Christi Watershed have produced the Vatican II Hymnal.

The cover is a work of art, and the work of love inside the covers is a match for the cover. The hymnal itself does not try to be all things to all people, which books like “Gather” do with little success. Listening to the video at Corpus Christi Watershed, you soon realize that “nothing inappropriate” to post-Vatican II worship was a phrase that guided the selection. What you do find here, though, is a well-organized, finely crafted collection a congregation in either the Ordinary or Extraordinary form could use at Sunday or weekday Masses.

The Index, which doubles as a Table of Contents, begins on page 711 (yes, there are page numbers!) The Ordinary of the Mass follows the Gospel Acclamations. In the same section you will find translations for the common motets. In Section II there are some Mass settings, but there are many more in Section III, by the indefatiguable Robert Rise and Fr. Weber, and others. Most are chant-line, while a few are metrical.

The hymn section should win an award simply for avoiding all the trite, tasteless trash of the past fifty years (thanks for omitting anything that starts “Here I am. . .” or “Here we are. . .”). There are many gems, including “Lead, Kindly Light,” and many hymns suitable for communion, once the communion antiphon has been sung.

This is the only source I have found that gives the complete text of the propers of the Mass (though not scored), even the Offertory antiphon, and includes the Latin words for the first few words of each antiphon. Each also has the words and music for the responsorial psalm, with the simple notation we have come to expect from the Chabanel repertoire.

I should think that every parish in the country should own at least one of these, if only to prove to themselves that good taste and liturgical appropriateness can be found in one place, and are not dead yet.

A REVIEW BY DEACON CUNNINGHAM

Francesca

As a long-time Anglican having swum the Tiber in the last 5 years, I must say that no Catholic hymnal approaches the resources we regularly had for hymnody, with the 1940 Hymnal being the standard. Anglicans briefly went through the ginger ale music phase, too, but since the congregations were used to quality, the really awful stuff was filtered out quickly and the better 'praise songs' were arranged by gifted musicians. Some are now 'classics', like Alleluia #1, which is far and away better than anything the St. Louis Jesuits ever wrote.

Besides the rotten music (and I'm talking about measurable musical standards, like whether there is more than one peak in a melody, etc.) in the Catholic domain, the texts that are frankly heretical bother me even more. I really would like to see the Holy See vet some of these. Probably none of the 'stable' composers work of all three of the big Catholic presses would survive. Lines like, 'Now to become bread and wine...' really? We're not dealing with bread and wine, it's the Body and Blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and if we live to be 1000, we won't be Him, only members of His Mystical Body. Lots of poor theology is thrown around like this, and many large promises of inclusion in God's kingdom, encouraging people to think being a Christian is easy. A good dose of Wesley is needed, or even better, Isaac Watts. It's nearly impossible to find a truly penitential text in any of the books OCP and GIA put out, and every new edition of the disposable missals has more changes of texts of the old hymn, always working away from God as gender-neutral, removing any whiffs of hell or damnation of souls, and any language that requires a little thought. By this means the beauty of high poetry is castrated, and I deplore it.

I personally see VatII as the best out there, partly because it makes the throw-away Missals obsolete, lets you actually plan liturgy past the current Missal, and partly because, although the hymn number is small, the excellence is there. Yes, I miss 'Amazing Grace', 'People Look East' and some others my congregation especially likes, and these omissions have made it a hard sell. Another 25 Hymns would have perfectly nailed it, but the book is long enough as it is, and it's not as though we couldn't buy another hymnal if we wanted the 800 or so hymns often mentioned and ginger ale choices to dip into until they, blessedly, become so outdated they're not sung anymore.

No one uses 800 hymns. No one. The number is bulked up by hymns allegedly perfect for college chapels, ethnic groups of every description and every possible effort made for inclusiveness. The Hymnal 1982 made this mistake and we lost all the part-singing to make up for the space needed. There is something to be said about one book that the player and the singer can both use without complementary editions ad nauseaum, while the hard working musicians sweat that everything will match up right.

The quality of church music in the Catholic Church has many wonderful warriors pushing back the flood of garbage and rediscovering the treasures of the Church. Yes, there are sad stories of congregations balking at Adoro Te Devote who have never heard of St. Thomas Aquinas as a hymn writer, and pastors caving in to the Catholic feel-good music crowd. I think the single most important barrier in our way is the miserable music education given to seminarians, so I make it a point to give copies of Vat II to any promising seminarian I come across, even if it means paying the postage to Rome.

BTW, who is publishing the 1940 now? I thought it was out of print.

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