Since we're speaking in general terms (hypothetically), a more common scenario is for the church not to have an organ. Choirs & congregations can be led by cantors, serpents, bass viols, and I know of two SF Bay churches that employ professional lutenists (one RC, one ECA) successfully. "...musicianship comes from the theological formation and intention..." doesn't really make sense to me, unless the goal is to further reduce the pool of potential hobbyists who might take on the job. It sounds like the church under discussion is going to have a very hard time of it.

Sometimes you have to use what you have available. I have had the mightly Schantz conk out and be down for a couple of weeks for repairs. I used a digital piano. Did I like it? No, and neither did the congregation. But we survived nicely and no one is any worse off for it.

Mr. O, your forensically perfect deposition, all things being equal and in a perfect world where all churches (and basilicas) are staffed well, would seem enough to close the door on the question as you "demonstrate." But we all know there aren't just 360 degrees, but 720 plus degrees of differentiation of circumstances in St. All Over the Map parishes.
It is not about the voice, the organ, the piano, the guitar, the hammered dulcimer; it is about achieving a level of stability that is significantly north of minimal.
The repertoire does matter, and it might as well be chant-based for my money as I'm convinced weekly (as you, in your extremely providential situation know) that the faithful are becoming disenchanted and shaking off the rep or the last four decades as they encounter a more Catholic paradigm here in a "normal" but musically enriched parish. When a DM has to staff 15-20 weekend Masses, there's always going to be a number of situations where the sum of parts is greater than what each part could bring to the table alone. If that singer can ably fulfill his/her role only with the tonal stability of a guitarist such as BruceL describes, or even a discriminating "strummer" who can provide a single-strum, root based chord at the right moment of a chant, and the effort is stable for all, where's the harm?
It, for the umpteenth time, is not always nor necessarily about the instrument (within reason, harmonicas and banjoes notwithstanding), it is always about the level of deployment. Same for the pipe organ, yes?

If the guitarist can't sing, they have no business leading music at Mass. And if they can, there is no reason to use the guitar.

Dead-on.

Hypothetically, the parish musician is able to sing, and (hypothetically) use a pitch-pipe or handy nearby keyboard for intonation.

There is NO necessity for accompaniment, period.

It's too bad the rest of us can't walk on water, too. :-( I don't sing - at least solo quality singing. I am a choir singer. I use cantors. Get over it!

When did unaccompanied music become "necessary?" Seems like a reform of the reform gone to ridiculous extremes, I would think. There's a lot of that here, unfortunately. I am glad the majority of CMAA is a bit more balanced.

When did unaccompanied music become "necessary?"

When there's no accompanist.

As to the questions:

1) How does the parish educate the new guitar group in the documents of the Church and in authentic Liturgy, and how that in turn informs the choice of repertoire and style of playing?

My recommendation is to approach it as music. Pay the way for the guitarists to go to a chant workshop. Believe it or not, many guitarists happen to also be musicians, and would jump at the opportunity to learn and use a cool new repertoire. I've seen it happen so many times.

2) What Mass parts does the parish choose for this Mass?

Whatever the congregation has been using. Or why not use the ICEL parts a capella?

Agreed with Gavin, above longer comment.
If donations don't emerge, a good cantor can pour lotsa sweat into training a core of cantors. Utilize the teen homeschoolers if there are families in your parish. You are prob already doing this.
Sounds like there aren't enough skilled singers... yet. Keep investing yourself.

Our parish uses organ sparingly- though I love it as beautiful and meaningful decoration. Our rep is chant and polyphony and basic hymns. We have been fine without accompaniment, but some kind of instrumental decoration is preferred.

If there are strum only guitarists, that's trouble looking ahead- it really limits rep.
However, I agree with comments about employing classically trained guitarists. Hey, I even married one!

Following up on my wise young colleague's responses, Angela, and one of CMAA's resident rogue guitarists, an imperative need is that it is not "the parish" that effects this change, but an appointed "leader" who has the requisite skills to assist "the group" in understanding their role in a presumably changing parish repertoire. There are extant Latin Masses that have been "assigned" chordal assignments that adhere to the modal character of chant. There are emulative Masses, ie. Bob Hurd's Missa Ubi Caritas (if sung in Greek/Latin only), Steve Warner's Mass of Charity and Love (WLP), and IIRC even Proulx's "Simplex" that have chord assignments (GIA.) Here is a website in Scotland-
Forth in Praise that has a number of rudimentary accompaniments for the ICEL Chant Mass, including a melody/chord version that are serviceable. And depending upon whether your parish uses one of the BIG THREE publishers, their catalogues should contain sufficient numbers of chant hymns (Jesu dulcis...Adoro te...etc.) or emulative chant (such as done by Barbara Bridge and others at OCP) that get you closer to your goal.
The person who is responsible for assessing the progress of the group must have a basic knowledge of chant basics, and that using rhythmic guitar accompaniment goes right out the window, even if the chant melody has been "metrically" altered (again, Jesu dulcis, Adoro te...Veni, veni...) Guitarists must avoid arpeggiation and rhythmic strumming entirely. They need to know how to anticipate exactly how to unobtrusively "roll" through a chord change without disturbing the natural, unmeasured flow of the melodic text. This could be practiced with chant hymns like "Attende Domine" or "Parce Domine" or "Veni Creator Spiritus" and such.
Guitarists accompanying chant or such similar types of music must be able to play chords in inversions, even tho' I mentioned basic chords in root position ( built 1-3-5) as well as some not triadic chords, open fifth chords, suspensions, tasteful use of sevenths and ninth chords, etc.
And lastly, no group beyond 2/3 guitarists should ever be assembled. Bag o cats that. If you have multiple guitars, the leader should transpose an accompaniment say in C (Major/Mixolydian) up a fifth to G, and have the second/third guitarist capo up to seventh fret for an "enriched" sonority. This goes for classical or steel strung guitars.
The lutenist approach BruceL mentioned, again, is the ideal way to go, but I don't think that's where your people are at.
I don't think that the guitar training books/media offered by the big publishers addresses any of these concerns vis a vis chant/guitar. A recent article in GIA's seasonal periodical was also sadly lack any serious depth as exactly how to address real, non-metric chant.
MaryAnn's points are well taken, but I know that even she'd agree that according to Angela's need and stipulations, Bill could do what I've outline above and have a positive effect upon singers who would need that assistance.
And my friend in Laredo's experience does not at all jibe with my four decades of experience as a professional DM in parishes and cathedrals. Everyone's mileage varies, and one size does NOT fit all.
Godspeed.

Unfortunately. the scenario in Laredo features mostly guitars. These are often not very good. The music ranges from folk to Mariachi with little to no sacred. There are about four parishes that have either a keyboard or organ. Acpella works a lot better tban having to deal with strumming.

I may not have four decades at this, but, at some point, we must do better.

I may not have four decades at this, but, at some point, we must do better.

As if the whole Planet Guitar consisted of out of tune guitars, requintos, guitarrons, trompetas y violines!
Ms. Romani, do you have any idea how insulting that remark is to accomplished musicians? No, I didn't think so.
You ought to consider refraining from remarking about musica practica for which you have been an observer and not practicioner. I do not suggest recusing yourself, just a little bit of self-assessment before you chime in with your "feelings."
I don't think that you are qualified to comment even upon the practice of music in four parishes in Laredo as you cannot simultaneously be in four parishes in Laredo as Mass is offered. And furthermore, when you have walked in others' shoes for a significant period of time to make a studied assessment, then your opinion may be of value to Angela, who asked and now has received an informed response.
I don't wish to reciprocate the inane comment dismissing my cred. However, when you can sight read any hymn or chant in four or five lines, give me a holler. Until then, your experience is no different and considerably less accomplished than many singers in my program, who were at the same level of reading competence to which you are currently assigned. They now can sight read in both forms.
I apologize to all for the blunt fraternal correction herein, but if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Simply dismissing the concern expressed by the original poster by saying she has no concern and should ignore her potential solution is NOT helpful.
Yes, we must do better. But not by disassociation, but by progress achieved by understanding and growth.
We at CMAA should strive to lead interested seekers to the ideals we've experienced at colloquia and in our local practices. But we should not stand in judgment of how they get there. I'm done.

Mary Ann,

I saw your comment awhile ago on another thread about the political benefit of young singers, and have been keeping it in the forefront of my consciousness. The kids eat up the chant! The trick is getting them to learn how to sing multiple notes on one syllable -- it's counter-intuitive to them for awhile, and very difficult to teach without a visual aid.

I sang through an SEP a few times one rehearsal without visual aid. The next time I introduced a poster of the same chant and just hummed different phrases from it, asking kids to point to the phrases on the poster. Almost all of them got it right the first time! This coming from a group of kids who couldn't read any music, and especially not chant notation, when I founded the choir in mid-September. Yes, the young can be our greatest ally. And I've been pondering when to start training them as cantors....I think I need to step up on that.

First of all, I did not mean to insult anyone. What I do find condescending is that there are those of us who may not have musical training, but, have liturgical training, and we are trying to do our best with what little we have. In the 10 years we have been a diocese, the leadership has not seen fit to invest any effort at all in the sound liturgical training of those who lead the music in their parishes. The one or two sessions that we have had constituted bringing in composers who were interested in marketing their wares instead of teaching the "music ministers" about sacred music. We do not even have a schola, let alone a diocesan choir. Lamentably, liturgy is not a top priority down here.

The guitar music that we have is more along the lines of strumming, either at the folk level (English) or at the ranchera-style level (Spanish). The Cathedral boasts Mariachis who, although they mean well, do not have the appropriate sense of liturgical seasons. Yesterday, they belted out "Pescador de Hombres"; nary a piece of music indicative of the fact that we were celebrating the Ephiphany.

For those few of us who are trying something, to rise above the guitar, the tenor of some of these posts reminds me of the warning that the Holy Father issued about "biting and consuming" one another. It's bad enough to catch flack among some in the diocese; it's just as painful to catch it here.

Ok, more ideas (I'm home 'resting' with pneumonia and have some time).

Chant classes for the parish one evening a week for 8-10wks. I would use Latin to bridge any language divide. Main goals:
singing basic chant rep comfortably and unaccompanied. More focus on 'group sung prayer', fairly brisk an natural (word-based) flow, less info (but some!) on Church docs and Solesmes method, ictus placement, etc.
Do not get bogged down in explanations, knowing about the four lines and how to sing 5-6 neumes will suffice. Get them singing it together, owning it, loving it. Take anyone and everyone, latecomers who had to hear about it from their friends, skeptics.

You think you are their leader- you are just as much their vocal model/cheerleader/aerobics instructor. :)
'We can do this people! This is our heritage! Think of your favorite saints- many of them sang these songs!' you get the idea.

Important part: Invite Fr to pop in or even attend. Thi affirms that you aren't just a random chant-pushing wierdo from the isle of salicus.

REP for such a class- invigorating basics
psalm tone warmups- Gloria Patris work
mass xi or xiii or even xvii
credo iii or i
veni creator spiritus
salve Regina
ave Maria
Jesu dulcis memoria
Adoro te
salve Mater

I would advise having a chanted mass at the end of such a class. I would try to have it on a day not associated with Lent or Advent, so chant (the new thing) isn't labeled as penitential..

Oh, and step one is presenting/ selling such an idea to the pastor, as always. It's a wy to bring the parish together and accomplish some of his good liturgical goals.

Just ideas. I have another biggie but it'll have to wait until Dominic is settled in his nap. :)

You know the answer, Charles. It's in coeli.

Since Les Paul (a Wisconsin native/Packer Fan) may already be in place up there, I won't be surprised to see a fretted-neck brick.

But he'll not use it for the Mass. Prolly the Dance afterwards.

wow yall. this is too much! i don't have any recommendations that say anything dif than you all already posted, but I just want to say... wow yall!

I just pulled out the CD of my first chanted Mass in Michigan. Exquisite combination of handbells, improvised organ, Latin Mass parts, Latin propers and By Flowing Waters chants. I'm drooling. I wonder if I could try it at this parish just once....perhaps they would be more receptive than we're thinking? I still must pursue this guitar thing, but chant, ah chant! After spending an evening an hour away teaching two more musicians about chant, I'd forgotten yet again how infatuated I am with it. Talking to Father tomorrow afternoon.

Please keep the other ideas coming, though! Even if I can get chant going at one Mass, I still need to flesh out my other options for the others.

Angela, I subscribe to most of what Charles "the Greater" (pardon!) says in this thread. More than 2 guitarists at a time would be, to me, a cacaphony (as would 2 or more organs!) Encourage them to "spread the wealth" every weekend.

I like MaryAnn's suggestions, of course, and like her choices of repertoire. However, it is important in this case to consider where the pastor and parish are. There is, for some reason, a "Latin hangup" here in many parts of the Midwest. When Latin is mentioned, otherwise sane people suddenly forsake reason and react violently! So, be sure you have the pastor's support as well as a substantial body of the faithful...or at least an attitude of good will from the same.

One suggestion user jhoffman made to me a few times which is good (especially if things aren't Latin-phobic) is to use the seasonal Marian antiphon after Masses as a way of introducing chant and/or Latin. This time of year, it's an especially good idea since few people know the Alma Redemptoris Mater...a teachable moment!

As some have noted, Benedictgal, I am somewhat reluctant to support many of your suggestions in this thread simply because so many of my experiences contradict it. It sounds like your ideas would work in a place where the people are grateful for ANY kind of music and are generally simple people with a good heart and open mind! That is...not suburbia (or near-suburbia), where many of us make our home! I agree with your feelings about "Pescador", although a case can be made for it in the next few weeks of the liturgical year due to the Gospels at Mass.

Finally, any chance for using the guitars at a FU-Steubenville style prayer/adoration service? I am of the opinion that trying to force out devotions after the Council (to emphasize the primacy of the Mass) is responsible for a lot of the questionable music we get at Mass. If a case can be made that "guitars can praise God, but let's learn something even better for Mass" by the pastor (important!) and you, this could defuse tensions...maybe... :)

I did a review of a Gregorian Chant and the guitar Mel Bay manual over at the Cafe which is a quite an exhaustive resource, that I actually own, Ryan. Can't look up link right now.

Dear all, I have been much moved in consideration of all your comments -- including yours, Benedictgal. :) I want you to know that in addition to your many helpful suggestions about guitars (Charles' book, MaryAnn's suggestion on Taize music, how many playing, in what manner and what setting, etc.), I felt the inspiration to approach my pastor about piloting an entirely chanted Mass just once. Just once, to see what the reaction is. After thinking about the things that I posted about the (hypothetical) parish situation, about the need to capitalize on our (hypothetical) resources, and about my own (decidedly NOT hypothetical) interests and expertise, I asked myself: Could this be a situation in which God is closing doors because He wants to push us to the next step? After all, there is no other explanation, except God's direct hand, for a woman who went into college not being able to read a note of music, to be now in charge of a diocesan Gregorian chant program and music director at a parish. The journey came through many, many unexpected open doors and experiences (and one cool Church Music Association of America). Sooooo....

Saturday, January 21, our congregation will have complete programs in hand with all the necessary music and translations, while I and a friend will be singing:

Prelude: Dominus secus mare (Gregorian)
Entrance: SEP introit based on the same (antiphon accompanied)
Mass parts: ICEL chants (Gloria unaccompanied with the exception of handchimes, if I can work it out)
Psalm and Alleluia: Respond and Acclaim (Psalm unaccompanied, Alleluia verse unaccompanied)
Offertory: Dextera Domini (Gregorian), SEP based on the same with antiphon accompanied
Communion: Venite post me (Gregorian), SEP based on the same, Jesu dulcis memoria with some drone and parallel organum
Close: Hymn TBD

Please pray for the success of this project. I first fell in love with chant singing at a Mass very similar to this one, and I hope it will speak to others in the way it spoke to me. Mary Ann, I am intrigued and considering your proposal of a chant camp, and may be in touch with you when/IF I survive my first ever Holy Week, with what may be an entirely overhauled music program.

I will continue to pursue the situation with the guitar/s, but in the meantime, chant ho!

Charles, I definitely want those videos! I need to explore all the avenues I possibly can. Realistically, even if this chant Mass flies, we won't be able to do something of this caliber at every Mass, and possibly not even at one Mass per week.

Offer your Mozart Requiem up for the portly soul in purgatory then, MA, my sweet!
Of course one hopes to get the ticket punched that admits one's soul to purgatory. Have been re-teaching/affirming the Missal responses with the school kids this week, how refreshing it is to be able to tie the new revisions (posture at "mea culpa", "under my roof," and even the bugaboo "consubstantial" with 4th graders! They get it!

Dear Jester,

I think part of the point of disagreement here is whether in fact going to guitars means automatically reverting to "happy-clappy music". Do those things have to go hand in hand ALL the time? Obviously, experience for most people shows that guitars and their music are of a lower class. But, does this in fact HAVE to be the case? A few resources have already been posted which suggest otherwise, and there are two respected musicians at least on this forum who have used the guitar and used it reverently. Please refer to some of those above posts.

Obviously, giving free rein to a guitar group will in most instances result in less than desirable music -- as can be said with most music that is not directed by an experienced and well-formed musician. Even chant that is not directed by a competent musician can be painful to listen to (sorry if this offends anyone, but it's true). But given the proper direction and formation, a group can turn out some really fine music.

Please, don't let experience be the only rule for whether music can be good or bad. If we rely on mere experience, then what distinguishes us from all those other post Vatican II liturgists who were frustrated with things in the old Liturgy and so abandoned it? Should we not, rather, *learn* from our experience, accept what is truly bad, and then seek what is good and what can truly be changed for the better? That was the purpose of my post. I have no intention of going back to happy clappy music, and so need to maneuver this situation slowly and very, very carefully.

Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.

In my experience, guitars are introduced rarely because of the outline hypothetical situation. In many cases the Parish has been unable to afford a paid organist or director of music, and has relied on volunteers. There have been less and less volunteers able to play organ or even piano for that matter, but there has been a plethora of young people playing guitar. Sadly, what most people do not understand is that you need to be a competant singer if a guitar is going to work at all. Few young people (I say this having participating in Church music since the age of about 8 or 9) have any clue as to the role that liturgical music plays in worship, and their musical inspiration has come from pop-stars.