My choir makes some pretty good dinner rolls ; )))

Only roll I've got is the one 'round the old tummy.

*snort*

Seriously, DBP brings up an interesting point, but one which I think is more symptomatic of the typical Catholic culture. In other denominations (Lutheran and Episcopalian in particular), the use of 4-part harmonies by the choir, and even the congregation, along with descants (sop. or sop./ten.) and elaborated organ accompaniments are de rigeur. Catholics for the most part rely on an overly-amplified voice (or voices) to do the singing for them.

"Role" up your sleeves, boys and girls, we've got work to do!

Daniel presents a very interesting discussion of the choir's role in congregational support. In particular, to consider the use of choral
harmonic arrangements of congregational hymns much like one would consider the use of 'contrasting organ registration' to be a fresh
way of looking at the subject. It's all about color and contrast to enrich textual emphasis without 'show-casing' especially in those multi-strophic hymns .

Question: How would you (or do you) encourage congregational-choral antiphonal exchanges without the 'intrusive' present of a cantor?

A few comments:
(1) The constant use of soprano descants is common, commonplace, vulgar, and unedifying. It is one of the clear aesthetic abuses of the past 40 years.
(2) Congregations can only be expected to sing things that (a) they know by memory, or (b) have all necesssary indications and instructions printed right with the music itself.
(3) No one should be allowed to accompany either congregations or choirs who has not spent several years as a choral singer in at least a moderately accomplished ensemble. It is simply not possible to fulfill this role without such experience. If the organist needs a conductor to keep the congregational music on track, the organist is not skilled enough for that role.
(4) Unaccompanied singing by the congregation should be cultivated assiduously. Remember: the most important parts for the congregation to sing--the celebrant/people dialogs--are simple, unaccompanied music.

I will often have the choir or a quartet alternate unaccompanied harmonizations with the congregation's unison singing on odd numbered verses (or phrases, for hymns in AABA or AABB form). This is particularly helpful to the congregation for unfamiliar hymns that they are able to repeat from memory.

Doing this for every hymn would be boring and would not reflect the different texts of each hymn. The same could be said for descants if they are over-used. There are several published collections that are full or poor voice-leading and octave doubling and that do little to enhance the hymn. These seem to be provided to give the sopranos (or tenors) "something to do." Perhaps that practice should be avoided.

Well down here in S Florida, more and more churches (Catholic, mind you) are going to big screens to show the hymn texts (and sacred pics when there is no music). Help, I'm a dinosaur for not liking this one bit!

I concur with Daniel's sentiments regarding the discreet use of descants sung only by sopranos who are capable and knowledgeable of the Anglican/boychoir tradition and the vocal demands that requires. I also adhere to a sort of code of honor for the singing of hymns that honors both the congregation's need to "fold into" one or more verses sung in unison by the choir, then letting the capable and balanced choir function on middle verses in parts, and returning to a strong unison for the concluding verse, with or without a descant sung by no more than 2/3 capable sopranos.
What I can't verify is how general conclusions can be made about poor practices in thousands of parishes because I don't get out much on Sundays. I've managed to have rather long tenures over 38 years, in my 16th year at my current and last parish, and if I hear an average parish choir, that occasion is likely to be from a televised Mass. And not from the National Shrine; more likely the choirs from St. Elsewhere. And those choirs can be more than likely commended for having heart and little else. The wobbling sopranos singing the ascending "descant" on the Mem.Acc./Amen of the MOC just represents poor leadership which begets poor technique which assaults the senses.
At last summer's colloquium one could clearly, in initial rehearsals, hear such technique issues in all the various stylistic period pieces, from Croce to Elgar. How was that addressed and remedied? By an incredibly sensitive and world-class cathedral director, who also happens to be the conductor for the Denver Symphony. My point being is that the state of choral efficiency across the board is (to borrow from the Talking Heads' David Byrne) "same as it ever was." Either a parish or cathedral pastor/rector realizes he must pay for the great piper, or he'll settle for "less thans" in hope, most often futile hope.
CMAA is the only beacon of hope I've recognized as of lasting value in affecting the attitudes of our young musicians and our young clergy; nevermind ACDA/AGO/ChoristersGuild much less NPM (where a great deal of poor choral singing has been the norm for decades' of conventions, save for J. Michael Thompson's ensemble.) Now, I would think that if there is a renaissance of recovering the true beauty in sacred music and liturgy springing from the grass roots, and spreading to many parishes like St. John Cantius, and then into whole dioceses like St. Louis, that maybe there might just be a renaissance of creative thinking from new generations of bishops who could allocate relatively modest amounts of their budgets towards the creation of scholarships expressly for under and post grad students who will return the favor by serving the church professionally. And if the fruit of their handiwork is recognized and appreciated in the long run by both pastors and people, then this ship might just be turned round right.
PS. Regarding visual directions through hand cues by songleaders: don't use songleaders is #1; but an occasional use of a sort of chironomy by the choir director, particularly for ordinary movements I feel is sometimes warranted and valuable.

The problem with descants is twofold: (1) there are lots of lousy descants out there, even in the 1982 Hymnal; (2) stifling some sopranos once they've caught the descant bug. When you say, "last time only," they all whimper and whine. On Sunday, they do whatever they want because what are you going to do? Shoot them in front of everyone?

I don't like overheads and besides someone always gets the slides fouled up - I've watched it happen in countless well-financed evangelical churches. Where I would like to use powerpoint is in teaching outside of the liturgy. Either that or put people's necks in a brace so they have to hold their music up and look at the director. I could also then be sure that we were all looking at the same piece. (Don't laugh. I've worked with some seriously finding-the-right-page challenged folks - and I love them all because they slow me down.)

David,

I just don't understand why when it comes to music you can explain, lecture, catechise and even provide them with written documentation on these subjects and they still think you're making it up just to be a "big meany."

Because every other expression of post-conciliar liturgy HAS BEEN made up, perhaps? My boss and I were discussing this yesterday; the ultimate problem isn't over this abuse or that, it's over whether people see the liturgy as something RECEIVED or not. If it's not received from tradition, you may in fact do as you please.

I've never really had a problem even with visiting cantors with saying "don't do that." Sometimes my regulars forget, like my rule to back away from the microphone while the congregation sings the response. When we have a visiting cantor for a funeral and I say "We don't have the cantors sing in front of the microphone during hymnody," I usually just get a look like I just told them we use Oreos for communion and then they just do what I said. If I were to be here any longer, I would print out a booklet like the CMAA FAQ to give them any visiting cantor.

I understand cantoring leads to diva-ism, but I don't run into it in my current parish. In fact, it's more a matter of encouraging people than discouraging.