learning to like the organ
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    While I have no objection (philosophical or otherwise) to the notion that, apart from the human voice, the organ is the most well -suited instrument for church use, I must confess that (as some of you may know), that I really don't care for it at all.

    As part of my new year's resolution to be a better sacred musician, I'm hoping some of you can help me learn to love organ music.

    (I should say that, while exhortations on the importance of the organ and its superiority over, say, the piano, are fine - they are not likely to help. I'm not looking to be convinced- I'm hoping to have my preferences changed.)

    How can you help?

    1st- Recording recomendations.
    CDs (with amazon links) or (even better) links to youtube or vimeo. Particularly selections which you think would be "accesible" to someone like me.

    2nd- Mechanical / historical educational resources (books and websites)
    I find the mechanics of the organ endlesly fascinating, and (like tourists at wineries) I have noticed that more i understand what goes into the product, the more I appreciate my experience.

    (Btw- the obvious suggestion - learn to play - is not helpful at this point in my life: I have no money for lessons, no time for practice, and no organ to play.)

    So... who wants to help?
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    Adam,

    I'm interested to pose a quest: what DON'T you like about the organ? From my experience, most musicians who don't like the organ just haven't heard it played in an expert fashion. In any case, though, list your objections...then perhaps we can give better rec's.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I have no "objections."
    I just don't really care for the sound of the organ, or (as far as I can tell currently) organ music generally.

    When played well, I find it an excellent accompaniment to hymns- especially with a giant Anglican choir and a hymn I already like.

    I generally dislike organ accompaniment to chant. (Again- not so much for any REASON other than I don't like the way it sounds).
    And I really dislike organ solos.
    Art of the Fugue played by a String Quartet? Love it.
    Art of the Fugue played by an organ? Please make it stop!

    And (As far as I can tell) the more recently composed it is (or is in style), the less likely I am to like it.
    So Baroque organ pieces I have generally found tolerable, but late 19th century I find remarkably off-putting.

    Also, the little bit of organ that I have liked has tended toward:
    -English/Anglican (particularly as opposed to German or French)
    -Early (again- Baroque, as opposed to, say, Romantic... and English Baroque as opposed to German Baroque)
    -Simple/not-flashy (the more likely I am to be IMPRESSED by the organist's skill [and I often am] the less likely I am to want to actually listen to the music)
    -Liturgical (composed for church, as opposed to composed for concerts)

    So- I'm looking for:
    1. More of that.
    2. Things outside of that which may help me expand my preferences into things I don't like currently.
  • I'm really sympathetic; it took me a long time to "get with" the organ (though I'm ALSO not a fan of solo piano music). Here were some of my "paths in":

    My favorite organ is the Compenius in the Fredriksborg Castle in Denmark. It's basically a 1610-ish orchestral organ...great flutes and reeds. Best recording ever done of it (but before restoration) was an Odyssey LP. There's a not-bad one on Marco Polo, though the repertoire is a little late and the stop selection a little bland. The only thing wrong with the Lena Jacobsen recordings on Bis is... Lena Jacobsen, who can't play in time to save her life. But they (and the Odyssey above) are mostly 16th c dance music, and the Schnarrwerk gets a real workout.

    If you haven't played around with the Hauptwerk organ sample player, you might want to. I found that it gave me a hands-on appreciation (since I'm not an organist). What it might do for you is let you get familiar with some organ types you might not otherwise encounter (AND give you a sorta-home practice instrument) . Unfortunately, the free organs available are somewhat limited...if you want Skinners or Cavaille-Coll, you have to pay. The basic setup is free, though, and if you have a computer and a couple of MIDI keyboards, you're good for manuals (you'll quickly want to max out you CPU's RAM upgrade though)

    Italian organs are fun...the traditional sound is very flute oriented. The repertoire is very NOT BigFrenchRomantic; the 19th c things esp. are very operatic and questionable for church use...but fun.

    Like you, I really can't stand the big French/German romantics. I find their smaller pieces effective though. The was once an LP of recordings that Max Reger made on a Welte reproducing organ...very nice smaller pieces (as Reger didn't have the chops for the pieces he wrote for Straube) Smaller Karg-Elert can also be nice. If you really want to hear a big blowsy Romantic organ work, consider the Carl Nielsen Commotio. You might also find Hugo Distler easier going.
  • Since I assume you already have a great appreciation for sacred music and it's history, look at some 20th century composers who base their music on chant and the mass. Dupre, Durufle, Tournemire and Langlais all wrote lots of music based on gregorian chant. Some of it is not too well suited for a regular Sunday liturgy, but it carries a lot of history and practice behind it and probably has more meaning to someone who understands sacred music well.
  • Though some may find Adam’s honesty about the organ off-putting, I think his discomfort with the instrument is not uncommon. I came to the organ rather late and would hardly say that it was love at first listening or touch. Being a concert-level pianist I wanted the organ to behave and sound like a piano with a focused clarity of pitch. I simply couldn’t understand the fascination with an indistinct full sound that included mixtures and mutations. I didn’t realize it at the time, but such an appreciation has to be nurtured and developed. Once it became apparent that the organ was a compilation of several timbres, not just one, I was able to allow that development to commence.

    Though Adam says he has no interest in learning the instrument, the tactile appeal of the organ is one of the first things to take root and you have to play to experience that. There is nothing quite like that first feeling of rendering a multi-voiced work with each voice on a separate division of the organ. (For me that was Bach‘s “Ich ruf zu dir.” ) Once I reached that level, there was no turning back.

    As has been mentioned, a particular problem with organ appreciation is the interdependence on instrument design, construction, voicing, and acoustical space. It’s rather rare that all the components come together to form a satisfying whole. But when it does, you have to be there to get the full benefit of the experience. A cd recording just won’t suffice. That is why I listen to organ cds rather infrequently. I don’t think I’m alone in that regard.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I have been playing organs for 50 years now, and was around them for a few years before that. Despite the organ reform movement, I never like the German Baroque instruments, or most of the Protestant composers of the same period. I do enjoy the French and English organs of the 19th through the first half of the 20th century. Preferences are highly individualistic, and no one need apologize for them.

    However, if I can learn to tolerate singers, there is hope you can learn to tolerate organs. Remember that through a soprano, death entered the world. ;-)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    >>Though Adam says he has no interest in learning the instrument,

    I didn't say I had no interest- just no current capacity.
    Given the opportunity to learn to play it, I would definitely take it.
  • Remember that through a soprano, death entered the world. ;-)

    Charles, Charles, how do you know Eve wasn't a sultry alto?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    The alto would have wanted the spec sheet on the apple, in triplicate.
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    I think the Bach Prelude in F Minor BWV 534 to be a magnificent composition. The formalism, which I rather imagine was archaic even in Bach's own day, induces in me a sense of awe and wonder. No wonder Mendelssohn and Wagner (!) admired Bach (among a whole host of others).

    Here's a recording with a follow-along score: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QToK4RvboXE
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    Thank you very much. Here's the "St. Anne" Prelude in E-flat Major BWV 552 in the same format: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHX3DajzsE8

    I really like this interpretation. It has a lot of pizzazz and rhythmic drive. Bach, like Wagner and Beethoven, can be very masculine music.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    THANKS!

    Recordings with follow-along score is especially helpful.


    "Please sir. Can I have some more?"
  • Mark P.
    Posts: 248
    Since you've been a good boy here's the Toccata in F BWV 540 complete with the "look ma, no hands" pedal solo: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=URuYYy0-AxI
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    :)
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That youtuber has over 400 videos like this.
    Excellent...
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    I have to agree with RN's comments above: there are so many variables to get right with the organ, that a good installation/end result rarely happens. Even if it does, there is no guarantee that the player will make good use of it. So many organists play with terrible articulation or, as RN said, treat the organ like a piano, that it is hard to hear it played as a musical instrument.

    Here is a fantastic sound from one of the greatest organs in the world, Cavaille-Coll's masterpiece at St. Ouen in Rouen: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gq8i69-L-Fs. Sounds like this made me love the instrument. It's a shame that user Stefano87 is gone from YouTube, because there were some fantastic performances on his page.

    I know that Olivier Latry's recording of the Durufle complete organ works and Gerre Hancock's recordings with the St. Thomas Choir of Men and Boys made me want to be a church musician. I consider myself the luckiest person to have had the opportunity to study with Dr. Hancock for a degree not too many years later!

    I think the variety of sound on the organ is unparalleled. When you hear the quieter voices and building crescendo on an organ like the Yale Woolsey Hall Skinner, it's like nothing else in the world. So...buy the JAV recording of Tom Murray at Woolsey, too!

    Finally, no other instrument is better suited to improvisation, which to me is the heart of music.

    @Mark: the "look ma, no hands!" brought back a lot of great memories from Dr. Gerre!
  • I found it helpful think orchestrally (is that a word?) when playing. Franck himself even said of his new organ at St. Sulpice: 'mon orgue, c'est un orchestre!" The variety of some extremely rich timbres is what hooked me and have been fortunate enough to have played in some marvelous spaces with excellent organs. To add on to BruceL's comment on improvisation here is a great video of Jean Guillou improvising on a folk-tune. If you can get past his eyebrows, he shows off the many voices of one of the best organs in Europe, IMO.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtPDs0R7WBo

    I think accompanied chant either works or doesn't, but I like the accompaniment that the monks of Fontgombault use for their chant. But I think it is safe to say that both (accompanied vs. unaccompanied) have their merits and it is simply subjective.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Klddb5e70-c
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    "It's a shame that user Stefano87 is gone from YouTube, because there were some fantastic performances on his page. "

    Who was/is he, anyway? I enjoyed those performances, too.
  • May I suggest American Public Radio's weekly program "Pipe Dreams", hosted by Michael Barone (check you local public radio station to see if they broadcast it and at what time).
    Thanked by 1ClergetKubisz
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,072
    How could I forget to recommend my favorite internet radio organ broadcast! My friend Brent Johnson runs OrganLive and the show At the Organ, on which I have been privileged to play.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    Dear Adam, As an old (literally) teacher of both piano and organ (as well as chant, etc.) this is what I would say to you: lay down 100.00 bucks for "Method of Organ Playing" by Harold Gleason, (now deceased, from Eastmam). Buy yourself a pair of organ shoes (organmaster.com). Begin practising, if possible in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Be slavish to detail, toe/heel etc. In one year from now, you will be besotted with this glorious instrument. Forget Vierne and Vidor for now, and even, God forgive me, J.S. Bach. Play "Da Jesus An Dem Kreuze Stund", or "Ut Queant Laxis" by Girolamo Diruta (c. 1560-1639). This is the heart and soul of the instrument. I promise.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    I always thought Gleason should have been poisoned before he wrote that book! His method doesn't work for everyone, and that book is really expensive. You should take a look at it first before investing in it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,828
    Critical. On your day off, when time is not an issue, get on a REAL pipe organ. Anywhere, somehow, with an organist who will step you through the basics. Then ask him to leave you by yourself, alone.

    Find a good organ in a live acoustic if possible. Dead acoustic is just as bad for an organ as it is for voices. It must come back to you after your hand leaves the note!

    Experiment with all the stops, couplers and create your own sounds. Don't worry about music at all. Sit there for at least an hour.

    If you don't find a single enchanting moment during that time, stick with the piano. (just kidding)

    Please let us know what your experience is like.
  • rsven
    Posts: 43
    There is no substitute for technique, toe/heel etc., that is contained in the Gleason method. However, the universe is vast, and whatever works is good. There is no substitute for prayer, as well! Long live the great art of the organ.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,982
    Technique is good, but many of the greatest organists never heard of Gleason. His way is not the only way.
  • Try looking at Spanish Baroque music. It is less complicated than Bach, but still very beautiful. Usually played without any use of the pedal division too! I had piano lessions for about 8 years, stopped playing for about another 9 years and had pottered about on organ on and off. When I began to understand the particular skills and methods used in organ music I developed a deeper appreciation and I love it. I found piano boring and predictable. I know what a piano is going to sound like, and I know what to expect. The organ has all sorts of possibilities, which I find exciting.
  • Protasius
    Posts: 468
    English organ music does not use the pedal at all until the 19th c. French Baroque music uses very few pedal, as does Southern German Baroque music (Pachelbel and his contemporaneous). If you feel more like Romantic music, there is a lot of harmonium music such as "L'organiste liturgique" and "L'organiste pratique" that uses no pedal.
  • I've downloaded lots of Pachelbel organ works, and they often have only long, sustained notes in the pedal part. In some cases like a drone for the entire piece of music!

    I think some people find organ boring because they've only ever heard people play hymns an 8' + 4' + 2' Diapason/Flute chorus. Use mutations, reeds and strings and there is suddenly a very exciting palette of tone colours out there. Oh, and there is lots of very interesting music out there for organ. Mozart is credited with calling the pipe organ "the king of musical isntruments" for a good reason! Although the French Romantic era music I find to be very challenging because of the way it explores the tonalities of the organ. I rather like to contrast the tones rather than go through tiny nuances!

    I find that I like having a strong bass part in organ music. In fact, I love to have a strong 16' Open Diapason. The Virtual Pipe Organ I'm working on at the moment even has a 32' stop! *HUGE GRIN*