Vatican II Hymnal — (Installment #2) — ENTRANCE HYMNS & EXIT HYMNS
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Here are my choices:

    Entrance & Exit Hymns for the Vatican II Hymnal

    image

    1. I would be grateful for any comments, suggestions, etc.

    2. Just because you make a suggestion, that doesn't mean I will follow it. HOWEVER, I often do. Many of you have already written to me, and I have learned much and made many changes based on what you told me.

    3. Regarding the selection of these hymns:

    A. My intent was to make it VERY easy for musicians to choose hymns.

    B. My intent was not to have a billion different options, which is VERY confusing for many volunteer music directors.

    C. I also tried to choose "easy, sturdy" hymns. Easy to play. "Sturdy" in that they always work, whether with just a cantor (without organ) OR with a huge choir (with organ), etc.

    D. I tried to choose hymns that "everybody knows."

    E. I tried not to repeat melodies, EXCEPT on feast days that only occur once a year.

    F. Again, this hymnal is supposed to be the BASIC, WELL-KNOWN, STURDY, BELOVED, APPROPRIATE, EASY selection that is very easy for ANYONE (no matter their background) to make good selections.



    image THE NEXT SECTION of the Hymnal will contain about fifty (50) Communion hymns, many of them lesser-known and beautiful.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 310
    Jeff, this is beautiful work. The font choice is lovely, and the engraving is beautiful. Your hymn choices are excellent -- givent he fact that you don't have the space to put hundreds of hymns, you have chosen very well, and I greatly appreciate the traditional texts.

    Some ideas:

    PAGE NUMBERS:
    The left-hand pages make the hymn numbers stand out to the eye, because they are on the upper left corner.
    e.g.: "108B - God of Mercy God of Grace . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . ."
    Since you're right-justifying the title on right facing pages, it might make sense to put the hymn numbers AFTER the hymn title on those pages, so that the hymn number is easy to find when flipping through the book.
    e.g.: " . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Crown Him With Many Crowns - 109"

    POSSIBLE USE:
    Since this information is primarily for directors, this might be taking up valuable real estate on the page. Perhaps an index at the end would be a better place to put this information?

    SOURCES:
    The tune name and text author seems unnecessarily prominent. Perhaps smaller font would make it less prominent, and afford you the space to recognize the composer, too? Also, the convention of writing tune names in all caps may be worth retaining.

    WRITING OUT VERSES SEPARATELY:
    I know I'm not the first person to give you this feedback, and I understand why you're doing this from a theoretical/didactic perspective, but I really think that writing out the verses separately is a major flaw. Look at Crown Him (109) for example. If all six verses were written under a single staff, the page would be so much cleaner and easier to read. As it is, the page is crowded and cramped. Again, I understand and appreciate why you're laying it out this way, but I find it a major stumbling block.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,300
    JO... I hope you saw my comments on your deleted thread... Your project is fantastic.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Dear francis: thanks!

    Dear Olbash:

    1. There will be page numbers. I also agree that the formatting of the top of the pages could use some fine tuning. THANKS!

    2. Regarding sources, I have not yet made a final decision on what is best. IN GENERAL, I think many hymnals are needlessly cluttered with dates and hymnals, various translators, arrangers, editors, variant tune names, original Latin hymn names, composers, etc. In the age of GOOGLE, much of this is needless nonsense, and (sometimes) factually inaccurate. That is to say, we simply DO NOT KNOW some of the sources of these tunes with certainty. However, I will look into it, and I have to admit I have been thinking hard about what the best solution will be.

    3. I agree that "Crown Him" had errors, and I need to fix that one: THANKS! I appreciate your keen eye.

    Just FYI, however, in case anybody is not aware, the reason for my decision is because (for my entire career as a musician) I find it very hard to read scores like this:

    image
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 310
    Ah, but you're not asking people to read in four-parts, just one. And, one assumes, the melody is memorized. And, if it isn't memorized, surely one has the hang of it after a verse or two. A simple horizontal line or double space after every two or three verses helps the brain to organize the text.

    But, I see where you're coming from.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    About hymn numbers and page numbers: people tend to confuse them. Is there a good way to avoid that?

    In the hymn section, would it make sense to not print the page numbers, but only the hymn numbers?
    Or to print the page numbers at the inner margins of those pages to make them less prominent?
    Would it help to give the hymn pages a colored edge to set that section of the book apart?

    These would be good questions to put to a real book designer if you can hire one.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    The only purpose of hymn numbers is to differentiate "the top" from "the bottom" of the page. If each hymn occupies a single full page (as they seem to here), having two sets of numbers is entirely unnecessary.
  • JMO,

    I agree with francis, it does look fantastic.

    I have only seen "pew edition" hymn sample pages, which look as fabulous as the Chabanel Psalms. I was wondering about hymns in the "organ edition": Will they look more like the example you provided above, in terms of layer separation, or will each staff have combined-layering - like how the hymns in the Adoremus Hymnal look? I've always felt that it's much easier to read SATB hymns when each layer is separated like in your example. If you look at "For All The Saints" 590 in the Adoremus Hymnal, you can see why combined-layering looks awful.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Friends,

    I am absolutely astounded by these comments.

    I thought at least SOMEBODY would say, "Hey, you forgot [ such-and-such ] a beautiful hymn, which can be used in Ordinary time!!!!"
  • The book looks very fine.

    Unhelpful comment:

    Why do you have 'Forty day and forty nights' (Aus der Tiefe) starting halfway through the bar? Why not just start it on the first beat of the bar?

    I have never seen it written this way before.

    Strange!
  • Jeff,

    The reason that no one is complaining about
    hymns left out is that the hymns you put in are very, very appropriate...if you had included any "junk", then other hymns would come to mind that would be more appropriate.

    It's not what is missing from today's hymnals is the problem so much as what is in them.
  • BruceL
    Posts: 1,006
    Jeff,

    I haven't had any time to look at this: I can probably look this evening and find some stuff. My suggestions would most likely be from a "why-dontcha-play-my-favorite-high-church-Anglican-hymn" POV. They may not be the best for Catholic worship, but I think that's very subjective anyway...and if we're talking hymns at Catholic Mass, then to some extent subjectivity is the name of the game.
  • Great selection of hymns!

    To the extent that these comments might be helpful:

    a) I agree most definitely about the composer and lyricist names being way too prominent. A much smaller font is in order there, but it's still good to have that basic information -- it shows a singer and even someone without terribly much interest in music that there is a rich and long history behind these pieces. They are not yesterday's weeds from the garden. We have a... what's the word?... heritage. And not as in "Heritage Mass."

    b) I have often made the mistake of including page numbers in booklets with musical selections that are also numbered, and I have never found any advantage to page numbers if each distinct item of music is numbered clearly (as one sees, e.g., in Fr. Weber's St. Louis Gradual). So my strong vote would be to number the discrete music items but not the pages.

    c) I also agree that the suggested use for hymns should be placed in appendices, because what if a person wants to sing a hymn for Offertory that you suggest for the Entrance? It would almost make a regular guy in the pews think that the musicians could be making a faux pas of some kind. Also, many hymns are multi-purpose ones, and you could list them as such in appendices. There have been many times when the lists in the back of Adoremus or St. Michael's have helped me make a quick selection for a certain season or feast.

    d) As I mentioned in another thread, please consider bringing out an alternative cover that is more your "classic" hymnal cover.

    Thank you for this magnificent labor of love!
  • jeffinpa
    Posts: 6
    On the subject of hymn numbering and page numbering -

    I like the approach taken in the Lutheran Service Book (LCMS). They used page numbers for pages before the hymn section of the book. The hymn number then picked up the same numbering. The pages after the hymn section again picked up the same numbering as page numbers.

    I hope that I have expressed this clearly. If the last page of the book before the hymn section was 97 then the first hymn would be numbered 98. It made the book easy to understand. No cases of #34 on page 150 (as we have in Breaking Bread).
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,300
    Numbers drive me gaga! The only reason for hymn numbers is for a hymn board or to alert people to be able to navigate to a page in a book. Presently I use three books: Choir book, organist accomp and congregational missalette. That's three different numbers for every hymn we sing. Not only that, but sometimes the hymn is not in all three sources! This drives me hymnsterical!

    The LCMS sounds like the best solution to me.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    THANK YOU ALL, AND PLEASE KEEP THE COMMENTS AND SUGGESTIONS COMING
  • TCJ
    Posts: 638
    Hello,

    The hymnal is looking good. I do have one question though. Why is the music sometimes printed twice with different verses (like 1,2,3 then 4,5,6) underneath? Wouldn't it save a lot of space to just have the music printed once and all the verses underneath them? Personally, I find it much less confusing that way as well.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    As I had said before, I find this layout rather troubling. It takes up too much space (space that could be used for 4 parts...), and I suspect most would agree with me. Just put all the verses with the same line of music, unless the music changes.
  • jp411
    Posts: 9
    This project looks quite interesting, but I agree that it is very unhelpful to have the music for multiple verses repeated. I can see absolutely no benefit to having the music for a 6 verse hymn repeated three times with 2 verses under each. This is confusing to look at, confusing to follow and takes up too much room. I also agree with others who have expressed this opinion with regard to accompaniment for hymns. I don't want to have a 6 page accompaniment for a LM hymn that has 6 verses. That is a nuisance. I think there is a greater benefit to simplicity and having a hymn on one page. I can improvise my own alternative harmonizations or not, or use other supplementary materials for alternative harmonizations if I so choose. Sometimes less really is more! I hope that you will consider the many comments that have been made in this regard and considering changing the layout of multi-verse hymns both in your hymnal and in the accompaniment.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    Here's how I see the current layout of hymns with multiple verses. It's subtly confusing, because the procedure for the reader/singer keeps changing.

    For first verse:
    1. Read the melody.
    2. Sing the first verse, which is directly under the staff.
    3. Then PROCEED to the next system.

    For second verse:
    1. Read the melody.
    2. Sing the second verse, which is directly under the staff.
    3. Then STAY with the same system.

    For third verse:
    1. Read the melody.
    2. Sing the third verse, which is NOT directly under the staff, but on the second line under it.
    3. Then PROCEED to the next system.

    For fourth verse:
    1. Read the melody.
    2. Sing the fourth verse, which is directly under the staff.
    3. Then STAY with the same system.

    For fifth verse:
    1. Read the melody.
    2. Sing the fifth verse, which is NOT directly under the staff, but on the second line under it.
    3. Then PROCEED to the next system (or stop, if the end is reached).

    So the reader has to keep changing where he looks for the text, and when he moves from one system to the next. This is more complicated than a conventional presentation presenting the melody once. It's also more complicated than repeating the melody fully for all the stanzas.
  • PaixGioiaAmorPaixGioiaAmor
    Posts: 1,473
    To be totally candid, with no lack of charity intended, the layout of hymns in this manner is one very big reason that we probably would not use this hymnal in my parish.
  • jp411
    Posts: 9
    I would have to agree with PaixGioiaAmor. This layout really ruins the whole thing for me.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    It wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, but I still am upset by it. Also, I think it plays too easily into the "one or two verses and done" mentality about hymns.
  • The other problem with printing the music multiple times is that it tells the singer, "There will be something different in the music for the next verse." Having read through a couple of the hymns presented in this format before I realized what was going on, I found myself feeling constantly on edge, waiting to see where the tune was going to go and unable to feel confident in singing the next verse just the same way I sang the last one.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Not in the interest of "fighting" or "contradicting ideas" etc., here are some clarifications (just so we can all be on the same page, pardon the pun):

    jp411: I have not released any harmonizations for the hymnal at this time: not a single one. However, I hope to release some before too long.

    Chonak, regarding the hymn verses, they are all numbered. After 1 comes 2, after 2 comes 3, after 3 comes 4, etc. Believe it or not, I've read your comment through twice, but I cannot see the difficulty. When you are done singing verse no. 1, simply go to verse no. 2, etc. They are all clearly marked, and I would argue it is not hard for our people to remember that 4 comes after 3, etc.

    Also, someone had asked if the melodies changed. The melodies for the hymns do not change. The only reason for not printing more than 3 verses under one melody is many people have trouble when scores look like this, even when little lines or space is placed between verses:

    image

    For myself, it is simply a matter of being responsible. The so-called "traditional" arrangement of writing 5, 6, 7 verses underneath one melody arose at a time when typesetting was extremely difficult and paper extremely rare. However, nowadays we have software that can handle such things.

    The "traditional" method of typesetting hymns is much easier, and approximately 3-4 times faster than what I am doing. However, since our goal is to GET PEOPLE SINGING (even folks with no musical training), I simply cannot (in good conscience) give a congregation scores that look like this:

    image

    I admit many musicians can navigate such scores. But many in our congregation lack musical training, and I would argue we have an obligation to help them in every way we can, even though it is a LOT more work.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,300
    JO

    Another alternative is to do four-part hymns with three verses within the system and then put 4 and on at the bottom of the page as block paragraphs.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    What about this? This is readable.

    image

    I'm not sure it's necessary or beneficial to add space after every 2 verses: maybe every 3 would be better. Just consider this an illustration of the idea.

    Numbers alone aren't enough to make a hymnal page easy to use. They don't compensate for difficult designs. Otherwise we'd all be happy to use English hymnals with the music printed at the top of the page and the verses all printed at the bottom -- or even on a facing page.
  • TCJ
    Posts: 638
    A system I find work well if to have a space or a line between every third verse. Yes, I can occasionally accidentally jump verses (which I catch very quickly), but then again, I am playing all the notes at the same time. People in the congregation, for one, don't need to be playing the organ at the same time. They can concentrate on the words. Also, since a good portion of people don't read music and are not going to be singing harmony, there is no reason why anything but the melody line would need to be placed in the hymnal. Once most people hear the melody, they will be using memory for the tune, not the notes.
  • JMO: Yes, I know (now) that the music doesn't change every verse or two. But -- and I suspect I wouldn't be alone -- it's the very reprinting of the music that tricks me into thinking that there will be something different. When you say (e.g., O God Our Help in Ages Past), "Here is the music for verse 1, and here's the music for verse 2, and then here's the music for verses 3 and 4, and lastly the music for verses 5 and 6," I just naturally assume there's some rational reason to be given four (and not one or six) versions of the music. What is comforting, I think, for congregational singers is to get to the end of verse 1 and be able to know that you have sung it through, now you know the tune, and you just have to go back to the beginning and repeat it with different words. The mere fact of having to read "new" (at least, for all I know it might be new) music for new verses forces me to keep looking back up at the notes and singing from them instead of feeling comfortable about the tune. I guess if someone announces beforehand, "The music is exactly the same for all six verses, so don't worry about the extra ones that are printed out" then my problem goes away, but when the announcement is "Our recessional hymn is #112," then I, sitting in the congregation, have no idea what to expect.

    And although your graphic is illustrative of an obnoxious problem for T and B singers (believe me, I know; I hate reading any lyrics above the staff, let alone six or seven lines up), when only the melody is printed, and the words below, the problem is insignificant. By the time you get to verse three or four, you will know how the song goes and have decreasing recourse to the music.

    As a final point, take hymn #115, To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King (the remark applies to several other hymns here). Due to your method of reprinting the verses, you have elected to put the refrain at the top of the page. But no one would ever sing the refrain first. You sing it after each verse. So what is it doing as the first thing on the page? I assume you didn't want it to get lost and forgotten about between verses 1 and 2, but the price for this is having it in an illogical place, requiring people to skip the first two lines of music on the page in order to start the hymn. The standard method of printing avoids these problems altogether, since all three verses are collected together and the refrain is simply printed after them where you would expect it.

    BTW, at the end of verse 5 in O God Our Help, the lyric should be "dies at the opening (sometimes given as op'ning) day," not "dies at the opening."
  • jp411
    Posts: 9
    I agree completely with the previous three comments. Your hymnal only includes the melody line, therefore your examples with SATB scores are not applicable. The cases where you have placed a refrain that comes after the verse at the top of the page is so confusing that I can't imagine any congregation being able to sing it correctly. Far from being "responsible" and helping people to sing, it is simply the case that this strange way of repeating music for every 2 verses is counter-intuitive, unhelpful and very confusing. As this discussion has evidenced, it only turns people off. And uninterested, non-musical congregations will be turned off even sooner than musicians will. I hope you will consider changing your layout. I think this hymnal could have much to offer if it was presented in a more helpful manner.
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    I don't know who these people are who get confused by traditional layout. Maybe they reside in the Erie diocese?

    I think bunching up verses at the bottom of the page is no more helpful. People need to see words under music to sing confidently, especially if there are any awkward text meter changes.

    And the other point made above (that the presentation suggests changing music) is dead on.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Again, all I can do is suggest that simply following 1 then 2 then 3 is much easier than this:

    image

    Again, the idea is to try to give our congregations every incentive to SING.

    P.S. I'm not sure the SATB issue comes into play here, as we're simply considering how the eye reads music & modern typesetting possibilities.
  • Dear Jeff,

    While most hymnals do provide a number on each line of each stanza and a marker for, usually, stanza three, still, I find the way you have formatted the stanzas much easier to follow, especially for elderly folks. I am personally in total support of how you have formatted the stanzas ... thank you and great work ... I appreciate all your hard work an dedication to this landmark work.

    Blessings,
    Bob
    Costa Mesa, CA
  • GavinGavin
    Posts: 2,799
    Why look at the melody at all by the 4th verse? With a good tune, when you've heard it twice you can sing it. Not to mention hymns such as "Now Thank We All Our God".

    I have only ever noticed more and better singing on latter verses with traditional layouts. I challenge anyone to give honest, contrary anecdotal evidence (except for churches where the whole hymn is not sung - shame on those people). The problem being described simply doesn't exist.
  • jp411
    Posts: 9
    I agree, Gavin. Most people in the congregation aren't looking at the melody line at all because they cannot read music. Some will look at it while they are singing the first verse. And, as you say, after that, if it is a good hymn there will not even be need to look at the music. What people are reading is the text, and having all of the verses lined up makes for the most intuitive presentation. People will naturally expect that the music for verse 3 is as it was for verse 2, because the words for verse 3 are right underneath the words for verse 2. I agree that the proposed layout is attempting to answer a problem that does not exist (i.e., that people cannot sing verses 3-6 of a strophic hymn if they are all lined up under the melody line.)
  • jp411
    Posts: 9
    JMO - I am very confused by the layout of hymns such as #105 (For the Beauty of the Earth) where the refrain that comes after the verse is placed at the top of the page and the verses are below. Can you explain to me how this particular layout is supposed to make it clear how the hymn is to be sung and how this layout is supposed to make it easier to sing? It appears absolutely counter-intuitive to me.
  • JahazaJahaza
    Posts: 467
    By the time you get to verse three or four, you will know how the song goes and have decreasing recourse to the music.

    Bingo.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    I appreciate JMO's interest in how the eye uses the notation and in modern typesetting possibilities. The example he gives, with its inconsistencies, may not be a good example of what modern typesetting can produce.

    Here's the same music, set with Lilypond (free open-source software, and perhaps not the fanciest):
    image
    (BTW, I know I didn't adjust this to take into account the rhythmic variations between verses.)
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Chonak, dear friend, I know that we are all allowed to have our own opinions.

    My opinion is that when the verses are written the traditional way, the eye has to go "up and down, up and down" to read the notes and music.

    image

    jp411, the refrain in the wrong spot can be fixed. Thanks!

    Why look at the melody at all by the 4th verse? With a good tune, when you've heard it twice you can sing it.

    Again, we are all entitled to our opinions, and I strongly disagree with that statement.

    However, I grant you that, were this the case, I would be incredibly foolish to continue to put words under melody. I would simply do what the New English Hymnal does, and write the words in prose form.

    I would like to share with you a note I got from a PROFESSIONAL choir director who has conducted Church choirs for more than three (3) different denominations including Anglican (and is now Catholic, by the way):

    This looks to me like an excellent group of hymns and texts. It's such a pleasure to see the 'real' words in so many of the ones I've had memorized from 30 and 40 years ago.

    You are very wise to take the time to put the words under the notes. I've never been in a church where verses were printed at the bottom of the page where congregational singing was a success. In fact, you can test it and watch the singing drop out when they have to manage a 5th or 6th verse of something that it's stupefyingly familiar. Even the choirs complain.


    Again, each will have his own opinion, and this is normal.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,905
    I could buy your reasoning, Jeff, if your example (linked at the top of this thread) showed it applied consistently, but it presents a hymn by Watts with:

    verse 1 in its own system
    verse 2 in its own system
    verses 3 & 4 in a single system
    verses 5 & 6 in a single system



    The next hymn has:

    verse 1 in its own system
    verses 2 & 3 in a single system
    verses 4 & 5 in a single system

    So there's visual inconsistency from one hymn to the next, as well as within each hymn. Is there a rationale for this?
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,307
    I'm with JMO on this. Some tunes are really easy to pick up, sure. But I've had more than a few frightening experiences with hymn that the parish was... less familiar with....
    Organ plays through once. Verse 1 goes okay...
    And then each subsequent verse gets worse instead of better, as the words get further and further away from the music.
    Not every hymn tune is Nettleton or Old 100th.
  • I agree with Adam and JMO ... it's good to have the words as close to the melody as possible if possible.

    I do have another suggestion, which helps simplify the path of the eye even more:
    For example, in hymn 101 - O God, Our Help in Ages Past, currently the first system has
    "O God, our help in ages past, our hope for years to"

    I would add the next word "come," to the end of the first system, making it a complete phrase. So, it would change to:
    "O God, our help in ages past, our hope for years to come,"

    It would also make both systems for every verse identical in length and making the spacing also identical. In other words, every system for every verse would start on beat 4 since every phrase starts on beat 4, and every system would have a last measure of 3 beats.

    This concept seems to have already been applied to other hymns of this kind.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Is there a rationale for this?

    Absolutely: the preference is always to have but one text per melody. When this is not possible, it becomes necessary to start "doubling" and or "tripling."

    The first verses are "favored" because those are the ones most often sung, and if the melody is unfamiliar, this will help as well.
  • Perhaps for the "organ edition", I don't think it would be necessary to apply this idea (JMO's idea). However, for the "pew edition", yes, because it's most helpful for those singing.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    JMO, test your theory: play a familiar tune not on the page (and in the same meter, of course) and see what the congregation sings. If they sing what is played on the organ, the layout doesn't really matter in the end.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,900
    >...if someone announces beforehand, "The music is exactly the same for all six verses, so don't worry about the extra ones that are printed out" then my problem goes away...

    Even with that announcement a vestige of nervousness remains! The reinvented layout will be a deal-breaker for those happy with the old wheel, I think. And for this one gives up room for four parts?
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Again, I appreciate and learn from all these comments: please keep them coming!
  • Jeff, small item here. Tune names are traditional in all caps (e.g., NICEA). It's a small thing, but I noticed it.
  • RagueneauRagueneau
    Posts: 2,592
    Thanks, Michael. Someone else suggested this, too. I was simply following the way they do it in the "Hymnal 1982." I will evaluate the pro's and con's of this change. thanks!
  • TCJ
    Posts: 638
    The comment about the verses printed without the notes at all is spot on. This evening we had a hymn with three verses under the music. Everyone (well, the few that do) sang those three. However, there was a fourth verse that was written without the notes and the congregation went entirely silent for it. So, yes, the words have to be with the notes.

    I am still of the opinion that it's better to have one set of notes and all the words underneath it (for the reasons given by many people above), but that is my opinion. I notice there are a good number of people of the opposite viewpoint, though, so I guess that's just as valid. I only speak from the experience I've had in both of the churches at which I've worked, so obviously I can't speak with an all-reaching authority here. I just know what has worked (and hasn't) in my area.
  • OlbashOlbash
    Posts: 310
    Conventions become conventions for a reason.

    JMO, we love you, and we love your work. As we hammer away at this point, please remember that we are doing so because we all want to see this hymnal in many, many pews by this time next year!