Sacred Music And Secular Styles - "food for thought" by Rory Cooney
  • I may be as guilty as the next person here. I have a song called “We Will Serve the Lord” which is very macho and tries to conjure the spirit of Joshua and the tribe at Shechem with its martial cadences, sort of a liturgical “When Johnny Comes Marching Home.” I won’t take that song back—it has other redeeming qualities!—but what I will do is try to come up with another song that might be called, “We Will Not Serve the Lord,” because, I might say, that our God is a servant, not a “lord” as human beings know lords.


    "Simple Choices for Pastoral Musicians" by Rory Cooney (Copyright © 1997)

    While the presiding bishop and others in the room waited with varying degrees of patience, the choir was singing a polyphonic "Sanctus" in latin. It was unbelievable, as though twenty years of history hadn't even happened. The assembly's unusurpable part of the eucharistic prayer had been coöpted by the choir in the mother church of the diocese, on a Sunday no less, in a language known by none except the elder presbyters, in a musical style of the courts of the sixteenth century. We shook the dust off our feet as we left the place, not staying to hear if this visionary place would save the Benedictus qui venit to sing after the minor elevations, perhaps instead of the memorial acclamation.

    The sad truth is that the story repeats itself in cities all over the United States.

    [it seems Mr. Cooney needs to go review what the "minor elevation" refers to ... ]

    "American Liturgical Music: Toward a Manifesto" by Rory Cooney (Copyright © 1993)

    You probably can think of a person in your life who is characterized by the words I’ve used from our common vocabulary to describe open. It might be a woman or a man, but I will wager that this person, for all their faults, is a joy to be around, a good person to have a conversation with, a traveler, a journey-maker, with varied interests. The person probably makes a lot of mistakes and is able to laugh at them and learn from them. The person sees the pain and hurt in the world, and accepts responsibility as a human person for ameliorating that suffering in whatever ways are possible. You’ve probably caught yourself wishing on some days you were more like that one, with their eyes, their heart, their charming ability to be a fool and not be foolish.

    And on the other hand, you may know someone more characterized by closed-ness. This one also might be a man or a woman. But I suspect that this is the person with whom you’re most likely to discuss sports and the weather, and politics and religion rarely come up in your table talk. Everything is a problem for this one, and the blame for the problem can clearly be placed on others. If only everyone believed what this one believed, if they voted like I do, if they went to this church, if they’d just go out and get a job. If we’d just build more prisons, if there were more capital crimes and hanging judges; if we’d close the borders, make that a sin, bring back the Baltimore catechism .....well, you get the idea. You know this person. Ralph Cramden, Archie Bunker, Homer Simpson, Jesse Helms. Lampooned in every generation, and they just won’t go away.


    "With Open Hands, Hearts, and Voices" by Rory Cooney (Copyright © 1997)

    Perhaps American music is too frightening: it's too democratic. The possibility of imaging God through its rhythms and melodies lays a short-fused explosive at the foundation of the institutional European church, a church with many American defenders. Our music doesn't fit the ecclesiology that's being crammed down the throat of the church by some of her princely members and their minions whose buttons are pushed by music of the court, music which supports their other-worldly vision of God. Some people in the pew buy into that vision because it's always easier to worship that kind of a god than one who is so utterly immanent that this God names Self "Emmanuel." We still want to believe in an "all-powerful" god, rather than one whose clearest image of godliness was kenosis, utterly powerless self-emptying. At the heart of our prejudice are a false doxology that holds up God-King imagery as normative in blatant antithesis to the incarnational/paschal mystery imagery of the 2nd Vatican Council (and Holy Scripture), and a false mysticism which seeks to replace an incarnational spirituality with one manifestation of spirituality: the monastic one.

    [according to the above, if I understand correctly, people are saying, "Hmmm, I think I'll buy into the other-worldly vision of God because it's "easier" ... ]

    "American Liturgical Music: Toward a Manifesto" by Rory Cooney (Copyright © 1993)

    Our manifesto must not create a tyranny of style. I have lived long enough to see that part of the catholic genius is that our church, in obedience to the inclusive love of Christ, is able to accommodate Veronica Luekens and Matthew Fox, William Buckley and Mario Cuomo, Rosemary Haughton and Mother Teresa.

    The 1990's will see the sesquicentennial of the Communist Manifesto arrive, and with it the triumphalistic demagoguery of those who misperceive the fall of this incarnation of communism as the failure of its ideals. The epitaph on capitalism (can its demise be far behind?) will probably say, "Marx was mostly right." As in the mid-nineteenth century a visionary called for ordinary folks to throw off the old economic order so that the world's wealth might not stay concentrated in the hands of a privileged hegemony, the church in America awaits an American Manifesto around which good, faithful musicians can rally and throw off the trappings of unthinkingly monarchical and moribund liturgical music.


    "American Liturgical Music: Toward a Manifesto" by Rory Cooney (Copyright © 1993)
  • He doth protest too much methinks! With that much protest, he simply must be a protestant!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    That fact that God gives up power to become a tiny helpless child, or the fact that we are called to recognize that same God in the faces of the poor and powerless, is only meaningful in the light of God's awesome power. It mean something to say that a King became a slave. It means nothing to say that a slave remained one.

    We do absolutely need the vision of social justice and recognizing God in the poor and lowly that Mr. Cooney is advocating. What we don't need is to throw out the beatific vision. Like Jesus himself (fully God, fully human) it's simply wrong to deny either one.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    PS...

    I didn't read that last quote before I responded.

    I will add:
    "Communism is basically a good idea if it was done right" is nothing more than high-school level philosophizing. Someone who suggests that anyone, anywhere needs their own version of the Communist manifesto, is highly suspect in my opinion.

    These sentiments are hardly surprising, though, and shed light on the few pieces of his that I know about.

    The larger question is, why are there so many Unitarian Universalists masquerading as Catholic composers?
  • Because the Unitarians, who love great music and beauty, won't have them. We can learn from them. The Unitarians.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    This is very useful information. It's good to know that the philosophical underpinnings of music like Cooney's is part of the public record.
  • Let's see, so this was 14 years ago, and I read more politics in what is above than a theory of liturgical music. I'm pretty sure that his views have evolved beyond this today. When we were at a conference together only two years ago, he seemed very interested in chant and not at all dogmatic about these things.

    It was really tragic for the music question that it ever became bound up with political divisions - as if there isn't enough to disagree about on music alone!
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    For the sake of Mr. Cooney's spirit, I'm very glad he has evolved his tastes (and likely his philosophy).
    (I was also an immature wannabe Marxist 14 years ago.... of course, I was 14 at the time, so....)

    Not to be a curmudgeon, but the problem with his music still exists, because the pieces which have entered common usage were written 10-20 years ago.




    However......
    That aside, I'm not sure I understand the point of this thread. Bringing up someone's past, or casting them as a heretic/communist/whatever, might....might... be relevant if we were already discussing the composer or his work:
    "Hey guys, I'm doing an all Rory Cooney lineup for Mass next weekend! What do you think?...."
    "Well, umm.... he seems to be a heretic and a communist."

    Still a bit rude, but relevant.


    However- just creating a thread for the sole purpose of bashing someone?
    That seems.... double-plus-ungood.


    I'm sort of ashamed I chimed in above before I thought of that. I'll leave my comments above as a record of my indiscretion. I hereby apologize to Mr. Cooney (should he ever see this) for participating in this Red Hunt, and I will say no more about our brother Rory or his music here.
  • I suppose, Jeffrey, that may be due to the fact that unless there is some sort of theoretical remnant regarding the "footprint" of Babbit and serialism that can be rummaged through for some deeper vein of meaning at some cosmic level, very few of us really ever want to actually advocate or critically condemn the repertoires that are actually printed in the hymnals and pulp missals we use weekly. I'm particularly struck by the synchronicity that Marxism showed up simultaneously and independently today here and at the Cafe! Dumb luck, that.
    I swear (pun that is, I do and I shouldn't for many and serious reasons) that most of us are much more comfortable maligning anything or anybody, rather than actually engage in a discussion about "the music" or "the text." And we can't use the cannard that it's pointless to "talk" about music; we have to engage in critical discourse to argue for or against something we're going to propose as appropriate for communal worship.
    Over at Cafe, there's a thread about "Bad Hymns." It didn't take but five minutes for the thrust of the author's post to be coopted by the charge that negatativism is unproductive, let's just extol that which we find positive. Well, after a few more rhetorical volleys over the "nature" of the debate, I offered up a short list of strophic hymns I find worthy of a positive discussion. The result.....crickets chirping in the far distance.
    Unless one of the Jeffrey's, Adam's et al offer up a post about a new composition of merit, no one at all seems interested at all in discussing, say, an example of Cooney's repertoire, pro or con, on its own merits.
    It's only mildly frustrating, as after all, these fori are ostensibly to promote chant and polyphony. But the reality that we still must confront what is commercially available at a critical level, and help new people like I've met at colloquia and intensives who are thrust anew into major decision positions with no frame of reference with wisdom to guide them through the initial stages of repertoire acquistion and stability, and on into issues of implementing the paradigm of chant.
    The amount of stratospheric intellectual posturing that we all seem to prefer is starting to underwhelm my interest in consulting the forum for collegial assistance. I'd hate to see us aspire towards the requirement that seems de rigueur at a couple of other non CMAA fori, that of having to present one's academic and intellectual pedigree and credentials before you can join their club.
    G'head someone, anyone.....tell me why "Come to me and drink" by Bob Hurd sucks or not, other than it was composed by Bob Hurd.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    I've been considering for about six months now writing a long series of posts at my blog that goes through the hymnal (I'd start with Gather Comp) on number at a time and looks at each piece critically. Here's what's wrong, what's right, and (for most of the pieces) why you should never, ever sing it at a Mass which is Catholic.

    But then there's the not wanting to look like (or actually be) a complainer thing.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Oh gosh.

    How low can we set the bar? We want hymns that aren't bad?
  • Charles, there's nothing wrong with your suggestion. I would probably never take it up because I'm not always sure why I find some hymns tolerable and others make me crazy. For my taste, the only hymns I really like are old-time office hymns, I'm sorry to say. (Kathy can stone me now.)

    As for other matters of taste, I've learned to doubt my own instincts in this regard. Twenty years ago, I had a very dogmatic view that I would never listen to Bach keyboard music on anything but harpsichord; I would never hear Mozart on anything but a fortepiano. I wanted oboes that quacked like ducks and violins that scraped like nails on a chalkboard. Anything else was a corruption, in my own mind.

    Today, my views are nearly the opposite: i love modern instruments in all this music. Why the change? When did it happen? On what basis? I could invent a theory that would seem to explain it but it would be an ex post rationale. Truth is that I really don't know. It just happened. I was probably just riding a fashion wave up and down. I just don't know.

    One reason to love and embrace chant is that is takes us out of the realm of tastes and the changing musical fashions within ourselves and within the culture.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Jeffrey,

    How can I stone you when I don't even know what you're talking about? What do you mean by old-time office hymns? Which ones? And what do you like about them?

    It seems to me that you are taking a position--an ideological position. That is not the same as what Charles and Adam and I are thinking of. We're talking about discernment.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    I think Keith Fraser nails it when he says at the end of his post on Chant Cafe:

    "What I generally tend to find is that they fit the mindset of parishes where the clergy are lukewarm about the supernatural aspects of the faith in their own beliefs and where the emphasis is on a revisionist theology or a social justice ecclesiology of activism rather than devotion."

    The issue, then, is theological. Are we making goals for ourselves, and singing about them? Or is God the goal, and the goal-setter? Has our religion been revealed? By Whom? Let's sing about that. Let's take the Psalms and the office Canticles as our patterns for singing praise to God. Let's enter in to the religion that has been given by Christ to the apostles and to us.
  • don roy
    Posts: 306
    i think both adam and jeffry make great points. the views expressed are from a different era (and at the time i probably shared many of them). jeffrys point about growth is very important. however it is also important to note that many of the hymns still sung ad nausium in the vast majority of catholic churches (and even more at catholic school masses) were written while in that mindset. just because cooney has grown doesnt mean that the damage his songs cause to the faith doesnt continue full force.
    for that reason those quotes are still relivent.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Perhaps we are talking about apples (music) and oranges (text). Tho both need to be addressed.
  • Yes, we should.
    JT, I didn't offer a suggestion. I offered a wearied observation that apparently the last thing anyone wishes to discuss here lately is discernment of the tools we actually employ in our gigs, be they apples or oranges. Maybe I'm just cranky, but it seems that a great deal of what is chatted up here and the CCComboxes is more akin to a gaggle of high ranking officers discussing the origins of their little ribbons and medals that are clustered over their starched uniform jackets in a closed parlour while they sip ancient sherry, port and apertifs. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
    There is nothing I've ever heard uttered by Turk, Arlene, Mahrt or Ostrowski that remotely could be described as pedantic or polemic.
    But I'm flummoxed as to how a British tune about the surrender of Cornwallis, or the almost two decades old writings about liberation theology and liturgy helps advance a discernment of worthy hymnody or other liturgical music.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    These writings matter because they indicate the mindset that underlies the writing. "I want the world to be Catholic" is the mindset of the Church, according to SC 10. "I want the world to be almost Communist" is rather a different motivation, and will produce rather different texts.
  • We're still talking passed each other, Kathy m' dear. I didn't say that none of what's ever posted here doesn't matter of late. I just doubt that the trending towards becoming another liturgical Olympus above the cloudline here or at Cafe will prove to be of widespread appeal towards the demographic that needs to jump on board the chant express.
    I am mirthfully reminded of how I used to literally moan that every issue of Pastoral Music I received monthly had nery a word that had to do with music! YMMV.
  • i would suggest that merely posting someone's published speeches does not constitute an "attack" ... i would also suggest that, if his views have changed, he should publish retractions of his statements ....
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Charles, dear,

    Perhaps you are assuming that there are no demagogues on the other side. Here is the demagoguery in black and white. Mike Stivic lives.
  • Since I have began using the Gradual Romanum more and more and continue to be amazed by these chants, I have realized the immense scope of our Faith is far beyond my taste for fashion.
    In the regards to the conspicuous absence of propers, -we are all more alike in our deficiencies.
    and have a way to go.
    I wonder why these most beautiful chants are met with so much indiference.
    I am amzed how these simple chants reveal our lack of musical skills
    I see pride in resisting the Church's guidance in these prescribed chants
    - which are liberating and demand a bit of humility.
    And Im am struck with terror at the content and form of the hymn (whether old and new) as a substitutes for these propers.
    It would be better to omit hymns and just read the propers.
  • Yes, relegate hymns to the liturgies for which they were written. Put those liturgies back into the parish, eliminate saying Mass for a bandage for every liturgical moment.

    This does raise a question...if Morning Prayer is read at an Anglican Use parish, will that satisfy the Sunday Obligation?
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Ralph,

    It WOULD be better to omit hymns and just read the propers. But that ain't going to happen and we all know that. Singing the propers isn't going to happen anytime soon. Perhaps .2% of Catholics will hear a single proper this year, despite heroic efforts. And meanwhile, who is minding the store? Is there ANY oversight over the mainstream hymnals? Any serious discussion of their theological content?

    Where I agree with Charles, iiuc, is that staying aloof from detailed conversations about mainstream hymns is counterproductive.
  • A pulp Gregorian Missal-lette would be a good start. Just including the weekly introits and the communions with their square notes would make it easier.
    Back in the 1980's WLP pointed all the Lectionary propers and ordinaries with a one accent for the final and mediant.

    Kathy , your are very right, and we are moving very slowly and solidly. Last week we sang "take Lord receive" and Latin propers and ordinaries at the same Mass, and we also sang "Blessed are They" after Mass as a recessional. At this time and place it is more important not to disedify each other.
    I am glad to say that we sang the Chrstmas introit this year and omitted the fancy "O come all Ye Faithful." unforgettable- to finally hear the Words of God the Father gently whipering to the new born Jesus "Your are my Son..."
  • Speaking of one of the Hymn of hymns, I taught the new ICEL "Glory" for two weeks to my parochial kids, which they sang beautifully on the Feast of St. Agnes.
    I just now, literally, finished having the sixth grade chanting the first third of Gloria XV out of the PBC by SIGHT SINGING THE NEUMES. That stokes me beyond the twilight zone.
    BTW, Bachlover, I didn't regard your post as an attack at all. It made for very interesting reading.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    public record

    two years ago, he seemed very interested in chant

    According to his parish public record ...
    in Aug 2010 some sort of "chant" was used before the Gloria,
    in Dec 2010 "O Come, O Come Emmanuel" was used.
  • "Marx was mostly right." As in the mid-nineteenth century a visionary called for ordinary folks to throw off the old economic order so that the world's wealth might not stay concentrated in the hands of a privileged. ..."

    Was this quote posturing to the shared common products and collectivism of the CMAA site against the big publishers?
  • Nor did I think quotations constitute an attack. I'm sure the Rory would laugh at them in some way but not repudiate them at all. I love digging up this old stuff just to put the ethos on display. It helps account for the rough patch in Church history we've all lived through.
  • I think we can all remember that everyone here is at a different point on the continuum. Some are just discovering what they've been cheated out of and are still hopping mad, while others have already been through all the arguments and no longer demonize the people behind the songs, preferring to move forward. Most of us are somewhere in between. Occasionally we need a rally, but mostly we need hope. We need hope that we are not tilting at windmills and that our efforts might pay off someday. I think BachLover's post was interesting and helped me to understand why some of Mr Cooney's music is like it is. Why can't we just leave it at that? I read no attack on the person of Mr. Cooney, but maybe I don't read so good.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    Is outrage.
  • "But that ain't going to happen and we all know that."

    But we all know that all the bad hymns are not going to be replaced with good hymns either, so we should still try.

    People in the church are disgusted with so much that has been done so poorly that they are willing to accept change. The ones that are not disgusted will accept change because they don't care enough to be disgusted now.

    Charles in CenCA could say this better in bigger words.
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    "But we all know that all the bad hymns are not going to be replaced with good hymns either, so we should still try."

    Wrong. People will sing anything to Nettleton. People will sing God We Praise You (a very good versification of the Te Deum) and they will sing Sing a New Church into Being. People will sing a Dim Sum menu to Nettleton. People will sing anything to Beethoven's 9th.

    The problem is a negative one: how do we keep the problematic texts out of the Church? The old solution (i.e. St. Ephrem's) was to use the heretics' tunes and write orthodox lyrics.
  • Is outrage, too.

    People in the church are disgusted with so much that has been done so poorly that they are willing to accept change. The ones that are not disgusted will accept change because they don't care enough to be disgusted now.


    I can name that tune in five words:
    "That is an ecclesial problem."
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,577
    RC: Our music doesn't fit the ecclesiology

    Uh oh.

    frogman: ... bad hymns ... People in the church are disgusted

    And what about the super-disgusted seventy percent that left in the 1960s?
    How do we tell them, and their children, and grandchildren,
    that in a few places things are getting better and they should return?
  • Publicize the anger that Catholics express when they go to Mass and hear Gregorian Chant.

    Get them to walk back and forth outside the church with signs protesting that guitars and drums have been banned. Call the local TV station staff editor on Sunday morning to give him time to send a crew out (Sunday AM is a VERY slow news time and they are paying the crew by the hour...)

    Say outrageous things, smiling the entire time.

    People will flock.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,220
    The reasons why people leave the Church are varied. Writer Mark Shea, on his blog, invited a commentary by Sherry Weddell, who wrote about how people leave the Church on "two tracks":

    Track A is those who leave because of an unsatisfied spiritual hunger. This is the group that eventually becomes Protestant (15%) They leave a bit later (only 63% leave by age 23) and seem to spend a period of a few years searching or in a spiritual limbo before they discover a Protestant congregation that seems to meet that hunger. Many don't take on a Protestant identity until their late 20's or early 30's. 71% of this group say their spiritual needs weren't being met as a Catholic. The majority not only become Protestant, they become evangelicals/Pentecostal/independent Christians (by the way, about 7% of current Mormons are former Catholics)

    At the very moment, I type this, about a quarter of US adults are either actively seeking or at least are passively open and scanning the horizon for spiritual options. This is true of Catholics in our pews, Catholics who no longer practice, and huge variety of other people of all religious traditions or none. If we were out there, proclaiming Christ in the midst of his Church in a joyful, intriguing manner, the interest of many would be peaked. But so many "orthodox" Catholics are holed up behind their barricades and inside their institutions.

    This is a large group who, if we were reaching out evangelizing them during their "limbo" time, could easily become the Catholic saints and apostles of the 21st century. But so many of us distain their hunger and ignore their spiritual distress. They aren't going to accept "no" or "just shut up and do your duty" as an answer. They will vote with their feet.

    Track B is those who leave and become "nothing" because it just doesn't mean anything or because they don't believe in specific Church teaching or even in God anymore. (14%) 80% of this group are gone by age 23. They are really out there and we will have to GO OUT and find them with the imagination and zeal of a Francis Xavier setting foot on the soil of Japan for the first time.

    There is no one size fits all answer. Track A folks are looking for personally meaningful, life-changing faith and evangelicals are all over that. Track B folks are just out there in the ether. And remember what I call the "Track C" folks who still call themselves Catholic but hardly ever show up.
  • miacoyne
    Posts: 1,805
    If we help the people in the church first with sacred music that is true to our belief and appropriate to the Holy Mass, then we can reach out better?

    One of the problem of modern hymns (or hymnody) is that they haven't had a chance to stand the test of time to be used in the liturgy. As we have seen in this thread, even the song writer often changes his own ideas and theology over the time. I really don't feel safe to sing them, especially for the Holy Mass. We have enough safe hymns in our tradition to sing in the liturgy until the modern hymns get consecrated.
  • Publicize the anger that Catholics express when they go to Mass and hear Gregorian Chant.
    Get them to walk back and forth outside the church with signs protesting that guitars and drums have been banned. Call the local TV station staff editor on Sunday morning to give him time to send a crew out (Sunday AM is a VERY slow news time and they are paying the crew by the hour...)
    Say outrageous things, smiling the entire time.
    People will flock.


    Honestly, Noel, do you get something out of providing PrayTell and Todd really good copy? And I know it was satire.
  • Well....I'm serious.

    Gossip and chatter about a change in a music program, returning to the roots of Catholic music, will draw like bees to honey, of people who will love and support the program.

    Dr. Mahrt's program has not survived without a reason.

    Most seriously, do you know anyone who goes to Mass with the typical music to sing the music?
  • If you are going to have a music program that follows the lead of Benedict and you do not **** people off as a result of it, you are not doing your job.

    Name the biggest name you know of that celebrates Ad Orientem.

    And he's not....irritating people? Catholics try to get along with others but not by abandoning the faith and its practices.
  • And surprised I am that you are. "Gossip and chatter" as a strategy to "lure" people to worship? Good luck with that.
    Next, Dr. Mahrt's successful schola tenure has not been the result of some sort of purity "cake walk." Trust me, between anecdotes at NOLA seminar and six hours of one on one time with him in transit to and fro, he's chosen to wage certain battles and wars in his parish(es) based upon the most mundane and often frivilous contentions. But ****ing people off is not among his chosen tactics, to my knowledge.
    Yes, actually I do know people who come to Mass to sing. I don't know how you define typical. It likely varies from what repertoire I choose.
    No, you do no good if your raison d'etre is to first **** people off, and then hide behind Benedict's smile. What you get for that is generally "fired." How does that help the brick by brick thingy?
    Raymond Cardinal Burke. And, as I understand the narrative, he's supposedly irritated people long before heavily publicized EF Masses at which he's the Celebrant. And I understand from Dr. Mahrt, he, too, is a humorous, patient, articulate, tolerant and gentle man (kind of like another guy.....uh, Gott's Rottweiler? vieleicht?)
    I get the "counter culture" emPHAsis with your zeal. But I don't get the obsession with ****ing off and irritating believers, unless you are just more comfortable with the "smaller, purer" ethos. YMMV.
  • There are diocese in which Ad Orientum and anything in Latin is BANNED directly from the chancery office. You don't think that they are....less than enamored with the Pope?
  • It's not a matter of irritating believers. It's being part of a team with a clear focus upon the goal. Working for a pastor who openly admits sending people to other parishes after refusing absolution was but one good sign in my case.
  • FNJ, I get it.
    But the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is not run like the Teamsters or SEIU. Or a politburo. To meet people where they're at, you have to sometimes be a lone prophet, without a team, and stay true to the gospel principles you espouse as you witness to them by example which beckons them beyond their convenience. But you don't **** on their uninformed, convenient values with rigid ideological praxis. IMO. YMMV.
  • Blaise
    Posts: 439
    I'm not a canon lawyer, but I understand that if something is banned, it has to have the signature of the (arch)bishop or apostolic administrator. Anything less than that is only a recommendation, not (arch)diocesan law.

    Nevertheless, (this may be a little too strong in this case) the biblical command may be a little helpful here: "if they persecute/despise you in one place, shake your dust off your feet......
  • When the highest ranking member of the clergy calls a priest and says....

    That's banned in the non-canon-law sense!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,513
    I have to agree with Charles here. If you want to make a steady improvement, you just can't go into a difficult situation, guns-a-blazin, like a Swiss Guard high on Palestrina. Slow and steady wins the race. Unless you can sprint for a while, which is good, too.

    "No, you do no good if your raison d'etre is to first **** people off, and then hide behind Benedict's smile. What you get for that is generally "fired." How does that help the brick by brick thingy?"
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,482
    Do music well and people will show up. And others will leave. If you do a narrow set of styles, you'll get more people showing up, and more people leaving.
    The repertoire will help determine who shows up and who leaves, but the numbers will likely be similar regardless.

    I do what I consider a healthy mix. We've had people show up specifically because I do David Haas. We've also had people show up specifically because I do "High Church" (ish) choral music. In the fall I'm starting a children's choir in the Anglican tradition (except we'll have girls), and I'm pretty sure that when word gets out we're doing British cathedral music, people will show up for that too. And if we do too much of it, the guy who came for David Haas might leave. Meanwhile, 80%-90% of the congregation cares little about what we're doing over there and will show up regardless for whatever reason they have for coming to church.
  • I'm all in favor of showing love towards all. However, writing pieces like, "We will not serve the Lord," and bragging about leaving Mass before the Consecration because one cannot tolerate hearing "Sanctus" seems ... very bad, especially from a famous catholic composer ... "Non serviam" is not an appropriate theme for Catholic church music, and I would love to see Rory condemn his words. He also seems to be implying that "traditionalist" musicians are de facto in favor of the death penalty, while "liberal" musicians are comfortable with communism. I've met Rory at several workshops, and he seems like a cheerful fellow ... but the above citations need to be cast off, if he's going to continue writing Catholic church music.