Hands Down, the best hymnal
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    CharlesW

    That can be good or it can be bad depending upon the 'tastes' of the pastor.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    How well I know that. Fortunately, it's better than most now. I pray for many more years for the pastor.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    CharlesW said...

    Well, I just want authentic liturgy - Gregorian chant from Solemnes, no metered songs in English, genuine Gothic vestments, and organ music by North German Lutherans - just like Jesus created it in the first century. And if that's not what you want, then perish, you heretic. ;-)



    I think our personal attributions to the music, decor, architecture and 'style' if you will, has nothing to do with 'authentic liturgy'... however, illicit and invalid are a whole nother conversation altogether.
  • BachLover2BachLover2
    Posts: 330
    ChalresW, don't we all.....(!)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    It all becomes a bit laughable. Yes, authentic liturgy would be wonderful. Unfortunately, what many view as authentic and traditional is a composite of styles and literature that are not liturgically or chronologically connected. Oh sure, along the way some have pulled these varied parts together to create a package that can be visually, esthetically, and audibly appealing. But is it authentic? Would authentic be recognized if it bit us? One advantage, I think, that our 9th century ancestors had, is that they didn't have so many options to choose from. Now, we can have authentic liturgy from whatever missal we happen to be using - at least, authentic to the time the particular missal was produced. It all gets a bit maddening after a while.
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    I agree, Charles. No one, including Church authorities, seems to know how to "add" to the treasury of sacred music in a systematic way. And leaving it as a closed system certainly seems counter to what the Church wants.

    Maddening indeed.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Authentic is one thing and one thing only... That the bread and wine become the Body and Blood of Christ and that the priest consummates it for the Sacrifice of sin. Nothing else is as important, however, Gothic vestments, Latin chant and polyphony certainly make it authentically traditional. And what Roman doesn't like that?!
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Francis, I think you're being miminalist. Liturgy is more than the validity of the Sacrament.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Well, I am certainly taking it down to the bare essentials for sure.
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Yet the Church strictly forbids priests to strip it to the "bare essentials". Not so with the other six Sacraments.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Well, if you are on a war zone, all you need is exactly that... And it IS Mass. Where does the church say it forbids it?
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Can. 927 It is absolutely forbidden, even in extreme urgent necessity, to consecrate one matter without the other or even both outside the eucharistic celebration.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    That is in reference to not having both species. I was not alluding to that. ^ I said BREAD and WINE .
  • Chrism
    Posts: 868
    Read more closely.
  • Anhaga
    Posts: 55
    I wonder if EF and OF Masses should have to be named the other way around, because at OF Mass we usually sing extraordinary options (hymns and other substitutes), while for EF Mass we more often sing Gregorian chant propers, the ordinary option.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    ? Explain
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    "...or even both..."
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    As a computer guy, I had learned COBOL and other computer languages, including SNOBOL, and had heard of WATBOL and DIBOL

    Goodness, Chronak, that dates you. I'm glad to see the greybeard count here. And the Protestants don't have all the best programmers (though I'll grant them Larry Wall).

    ps sorry for the late comment! I've been out of the loop, finishing necessary (computer-type) work before going on holiday.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    And the Protestants don't have all the best programmers

    They do, however, have a damn fine hymn book or two. My proposal for a new hymnal is a Catholic version of the English Hymnal: take the latest public domain edition (the first dates to 1906), strip out the stuff that's repugnant to the Faith (nothing immediately springs to mind), junk whatever hasn't stood the test of time (a low percentage as these things go), and add the best of Catholic strophic hymnody that isn't already in there, employing the principals of selection described by Vaughan Williams in the introduction.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,500
    Yes. Exactly.
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    ENGLISH?

    No German hymns?

    Ach, du lieber...
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    The English Hymnal 1916 is a source that is already represented in PBEH.

    Those who have additional favorites in the book are welcome to submit them in the Finale format that is outlined on the PBEH page for consideration.

    Here is a direct link to the EH:

    http://books.google.com/books?id=A20zAAAAIAAJ&pg=PR7&dq=english+hymnal&hl=en&ei=6nFoTLPBJIG0lQefp_2fBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CGcQ6AEwCTgU#v=onepage&q=english hymnal&f=false

    There are many in there that suffer from extremely dated language and would not be useful, however there are many that would be wonderful. Though I was able to secure written notice from the RVW people that all of the RVW hymns in here are in the PD, as of yet not all have been added to PBEH and should be.

    Volunteers, volunteers. The people who have volunteered have been wonderful, let's clone them.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    There are many in there that suffer from extremely dated language and would not be useful.

    I don't think sacral English is such a problem, Noel. "Hail thee festival day, blessed day that art hallowed for ever", for example, is a marvellous hymn [can't remember the number; I'm on a Catholic music week so don't have a copy to hand!]. For that matter, Catholic congregations don't have a problem with the traditional translations of the Pater Noster, Ave Maria and Salve Regina. Cases that don't work are probably those that haven't stood the test of time on poetic grounds, rather than anything else.
  • noel jones, aagonoel jones, aago
    Posts: 6,605
    I've taken some time and read through more than half the texts from it, and IanW is right.

    I guess I was knee-jerk reacting to having Catholic choir members in the past up in arms over "thither".

    If you have a priest that will support the language of the EH, it would serve as a fine source, if you don't have his support. you may end up having to go thither.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,944
    Just spare me from a-historical usage like "from whence" - which would be like "to thither"....
  • DougS
    Posts: 793
    Ugh, "from whence" makes me wince, too.
  • Adam WoodAdam Wood
    Posts: 6,451
    Fake old? Just wait a while.
  • IanWIanW
    Posts: 756
    if you don't have his support. you may end up having to go thither.

    :-)
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