Doug

I would like to hear that one. Do you have the Rundfunkchor on your list?

Doug

Which string do you play?

BTW, Fortescue claims that there is no question that the earliest music was non-metric - reflecting early Christian opposition to Pagan festival music.

Jeffrey,

And yet St. Ambrose, St. Thomas Aquinas, St. Peter Damien, St. Ephrem, St. Bernard, etc. etc., wrote metrical hymns for the use of the Church.

Adam

I love this part. The Church unchanging, the Church ever new!

Not that this matters from a "current practice" standpoint. Our liturgy is not intended to be a historical/musicological exploration of first century worship or a diorama illustrating the historical circumstances of Jesus' cultural surroundings.

The only danger in this thinking is that we abandon everything that tradition brings to our doorstep, God forbid, the Sacrament and the Mass itself.

Not at all. I simply want the collection in authentic form. From your comments on this forum I get the impression that you are knowledgeable in the craft of hymnody and would truly like to know your sources if that is not asking too much. I have a wonderful hymnal that has some of the hymns I suspect you are alluding to, but there is no way to confirm it without the specifics.

I think you'd better get going on your research, then. You can start here: http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01392a.htm, http://www.archive.org/stream/earlylatinhymnsw00walpiala/earlylatinhymnsw00walpiala_djvu.txt

Or perhaps you would prefer to read from Book IX of St. Augustine's Confessions:

32. So, when the body was carried forth, we both went and returned without tears. For neither in those prayers which we poured forth to thee, when the sacrifice of our redemption was offered up to thee for her -- with the body placed by the side of the grave as the custom is there, before it is lowered down into it -- neither in those prayers did I weep. But I was most grievously sad in secret all the day, and with a troubled mind entreated thee, as I could, to heal my sorrow; but thou didst not. I now believe that thou wast fixing in my memory, by this one lesson, the power of the bonds of all habit, even on a mind which now no longer feeds upon deception. It then occurred to me that it would be a good thing to go and bathe, for I had heard that the word for bath [balneum] took its name from the Greek balaneion, because it washes anxiety from the mind. Now see, this also I confess to thy mercy, "O Father of the fatherless"[307]: I bathed and felt the same as I had done before. For the bitterness of my grief was not sweated from my heart.

Then I slept, and when I awoke I found my grief not a little assuaged. And as I lay there on my bed, those true verses of Ambrose came to my mind, for thou art truly,

"Deus, creator omnium,
Polique rector, vestiens
Diem decoro lumine,
Noctem sopora gratia;
Artus solutos ut quies
Reddat laboris usui
Mentesque fessas allevet,
Luctusque solvat anxios."

"O God, Creator of us all,
Guiding the orbs celestial,
Clothing the day with lovely light,
Appointing gracious sleep by night:
Thy grace our wearied limbs restore
To strengthened labor, as before,
And ease the grief of tired minds
From that deep torment which it finds."[308]

33. And then, little by little, there came back to me my former memories of thy handmaid: her devout life toward thee, her holy tenderness and attentiveness toward us, which had suddenly been taken away from me -- and it was a solace for me to weep in thy sight, for her and for myself, about her and about myself. Thus I set free the tears which before I repressed, that they might flow at will, spreading them out as a pillow beneath my heart. And it rested on them, for thy ears were near me -- not those of a man, who would have made a scornful comment about my weeping. But now in writing I confess it to thee, O Lord! Read it who will, and comment how he will, and if he finds me to have sinned in weeping for my mother for part of an hour -- that mother who was for a while dead to my eyes, who had for many years wept for me that I might live in thy eyes -- let him not laugh at me; but if he be a man of generous love, let him weep for my sins against thee, the Father of all the brethren of thy Christ.

Out of the 18 hymns on your first link, which ones do you consider metered? Which of them would you put in the category of Gregorian Chant?

(looking at second link)

Kathy

Fact: Our RC tradition is not and will most likely never be metered hymnody. Our patronage is GC. (in Latin)

The details are immense. I was simply distilling this down to the basic truths of RC hymnody which was almost completely composed in Gregorian Notation or it's earlier methods. I know Adam... another bold proclamation.

Metered hymnody is an addendum to the RC tradition of sacred music. Just want to unblur the truth as sometimes people can be lead to see things differently on this forum. It's a tangled web of confusion these days. The CMAA has a great FAQ on sacred music.

http://musicasacra.com/pdf/smfaq.pdf

"Metered hymnody is an addendum to the RC tradition of sacred music."

I suppose St. Ambrose wrote Deus creator omnium in iambic tetrameter by utter coincidence, then.

Kathy

I have considered that option. There is no way to know, however.

Never mind. Not interested in fighting. Removed.

Noel, did you mean Benedict XV

The artistry introduced by Blessed Ephrem added dignity to sacred matters as Theodoretus stresses. The metric rhythm, which our saint popularized, was widely propagated both among the Greeks and the Latins. Indeed does it seem probable that the liturgical antiphonary with its songs and processions, introduced at Constantinople in the works of Chrysostom and at Milan by Ambrose (whence it spread throughout all of Italy), was the work of some other author? For the "custom of Eastern rhythm" deeply moved the catechumen Augustine in northern Italy; Gregory the Great improved it and we use it in a more advanced form. Critics acknowledge that that "same Eastern rhythm" had it origins in Ephrem's Syrian antiphonary.

14. It is no wonder then that many of the Fathers of the Church stress the authority of St. Ephrem. Nyssenus says of his writings, "Studying the Old and New Scriptures most thoroughly, he interpreted them accurately, word for word; and what was hidden and concealed, from the very creation of the world to the last book of grace, he illumined with commentaries, using the light of the Spirit." And Chrysostom: "The great Ephrem is scourge of the slothful, consoler of the afflicted, educator, instructor and exhorter of youth, mirror of monks, leader of penitents, goad and sting of heretics, reservoir of virtues, and the home and lodging of the Holy Spirit." Certainly nothing greater can be said in praise of a man who, however, seemed so small in his own eyes that he claimed to be the least of all and a most vile sinner."

15. Therefore, God, who has "exalted the humble," bestows great glory on blessed Ephrem and proposes him to this age as a doctor of heavenly wisdom and an example of the choicest virtues. And the appropriateness of his example is truly singular today. The frightful war is over and there is something of a new order for many nations, especially in the East. We, along with you and all good men, must endeavor to restore in Christ whatever remains of human and civil culture and to recall the erring society of men to God and to His Holy Church. Though our ancestors' institutions failed, public affairs are in tumult, and everything human is confused, the Catholic Church alone never vacilates, but instead looks confidently to the future. She alone is born for immortality, trusting in the words addressed to Blessed Peter: "Upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against her."

16. Would that other ecclesiastical teachers learn from him how skilfully, how diligently they must work in preaching the doctrine of Christ!http://www.ewtn.com/library/encyc/b15prapp.htm

Noel,

*Un*trained voices will resist being over that range's passaggio fully into head voice for very long. That's why untrained baritones in the pews will resist a melodic tessitura in the head voice that's not well prepared and is not paired with relaxing dips below that range.

You are imitating the classic voice teacher thing of treating baritones as lazy tenors. That sometimes works with people paying for voice lessons, and even occasionally volunteers for church choirs, but fewer and fewer people in the pews, among other things due to changes in musical education and culture that have been beaten to death in another discussion.

Or maybe Pope Benedict XIII:

"9. The Celebrant turns his back to the Altar, and, when facing, the procession, he begins in a loud voice the hymn Vexilla Regis prodeunt, etc., which, with the second server, he continues to the end, as below:

Vexilla Regis prodeunt:
Fulget Crucis mysterium:
Qua vita mortem pertulit,
Et morte vitam protulit.

Quae vulnerata lanceae
Miicrone diro, criminum
Ut nos lavaret sordibus,
Manavit unda, et sanguine.

Impleta sunt, quae concinit
David fideli carmine,
Dicendo nationibus :
Regnavit a ligno Deus.

Arbor decora, et fulgida,
Ornata Regis purpura,
Electa digna stipite
Tam sancta membra tangere.

Beata, cujus brachiis
Pretium pependit saeculi
Statera facta corporis,
Tulitque praedam tartari.

O Crux ave spes unica,
Hoc passionis tempore
Piis adauge gratiam,
Reisque dele crimina.

Te, fons salutis Trinitas,
Collaudet omnis spiritus:
Quibus Crucis victoriam
Largiris, adde praemium. Amen."
http://www.liturgialatina.org/memoriale/50.htm

"The first reference to singing in the Bible comes after the crossing of the Red Sea. Israel has risen out of slavery. It has climbed up from the threatening depths of the sea. It is as it were reborn. It lives and it is free. The Bible describes the people’s reaction to this great event of salvation with the verse: "The people … believed in the Lord and in Moses his servant" (Ex 14:31). Then comes the second reaction which, with a kind of inner necessity, follows from the first one: "Then Moses and the Israelites sang this song to the Lord …" At the Easter Vigil, year after year, we Christians intone this song after the third reading, we sing it as our song, because we too, through God’s power, have been drawn forth from the water and liberated for true life."

I have not missed an Easter Vigil since I was 8. I have heard and sung versions of this Response after the Exodus reading in every style from chant to pop to fake-Middle Eastern. The text itself, after that glorious reading, regardless of style, has never failed to make me feel at one with those ancient people who, like me, had been brought through the water and freed from their slavery by a gracious God. This is the power of ritual action, of Liturgical worship, in my view: time collapses, and we are there, with the great cloud of witnesses who have gone before us.

(Now... if only I can make everyone say "charioteers" instead of "chariot-drivers"...)

Kathy

We are not fighting against hymns. We are trying to restore their order and proper place. I among all composers love to compose hymns as you well know. However, let us restore them to their good and rightful place in the Mass.

No No No... we are not against hymns... you have read this all wrong. We LOVE hymns! I LOVE to compose hymns. Heck. I have offered to compose music to your hymns! We just don't want hymns to be the ONLY music that is offered at the Mass as it is mostly now. We want to restore the tradition of the music at Mass. Propers, Ordinaries, Motets, Chant, Polyphony and Hymns taking their rightful place.

In my role as organist, I have memorized hundreds of hymns and can play them in most any key. I am a lover of hymnody. I regularly play improvs on hymn tunes. Somehow you got the idea I am against them. Absolutely not! I am just trying to restore the proper order of hymns in the Mass.

I am, however, trying to influence the wrong employment of the four-hymn sandwich at Mass. We use two propers at each Mass, but they are usually followed by... a HYMN! (brick by brick with careful and slow influence the proper change will come)

Yes, Miacoyne.

I would just do the propers at the 'proper' place and leave out the hymn, but it would be a shock to the pips and to some staff. So, I am including both, and on high feasts, try to use only the proper if possible. (like this weekend for instance)

How many hymns can a Sunday mass have? I have three hymns in three of my masses, and only two hymns in the remaining one. I threw out the offertory hymn and no one objected. A communion proper is now sung in English followed by a hymn. Realistically, I would never be allowed to replace all the hymns with propers. Half a loaf is better than none. However, I like hymns and have no plans to remove all of them.

Mia,

Every parish is going to buy new hymnals next year. Most will not buy a combination of the PBC and the Gregorian Missal. I wish that they would but most will not.

The choice at this moment in most parishes is not between propers vs. hymns. The choice in most parishes is still bad hymns vs. good hymns, and yet, because we all prefer propers, we do nothing at all to improve the quality of hymns.

Kathy,

There is still the PBEH project. I don't think CMAA is doing nothing in regards to hymns.

You'll remember we had a Tower of Babel moment when that project started taking off, and the book still isn't published. If memory serves, the Catholicity of the pedigree, the quality of musicality (whatever that meant, and I think it meant "sounds Episcopal"), and the source file format were among the sticky issues, along with of course the availability of resources to help.

I spend much more time picking hymns than formatting them for printing. Perhaps we need a Wiki where PD hymns can be aligned with the seasons, Sundays and Feasts of the Church year - I know CanticaNova has a list. Either way, the Traditional Roman Hymnal would be a great start for the pews, but I'd rather see something more substantial in size, and unfortunately other people simply don't share my perfect taste in hymns.

Thanks for bring up PBEH! It is quite healthy and used frequently by people.

The stall of actual publication of a hard copy is due to the desire that each hymn be fully notated with complete information as follows:

TITLE
Tune Name
Tune Meter
Tune Composer
(b. - d.)
year of composition
Hymn Text author
(b. - d.)
year text was written Tr.
Text translator
(b.-d.)
Translation year
First publication source
first publ city
first publ year

I donated suitable hymns from my project, which was urtext, straight from the original most of which had little or no information required above. My goal was to get the music and text on the page and with the help of volunteers, there now is a place at CMAA where Catholic churches can take hymns and use them for free.

There has been very little interest in volunteers in actually doing the annotation work. There has been more interest in noting errors and that has been helpful.

We had anticipated a lot more new hymns, but it appears that though publication here under Creative Commons 3.0 would not jeopardize the sale of new hymns to anticipated new hymnals by OCP, GIA, WLP and others, many have said that they have decided not to offer them to PBEH and sell them instead.

If anyone wants a PDF of the entire PBEH as it stands, download the PDF at www.basicchant.com/pbeh.pdf. We only ask that you note and inform us of any errant notes, harmonies or texts.

If anyone wants a copy of the entire collection from which I transferred to the PBEH, The Anthology may be purchased or downloaded for free at www.thecatholichymnal.com. Bulk prices are reduced for choirs of this book, which eliminates page turns and is large size to be easy to read in dim choir lofts.

While there are hymns in here that should not be promoted, there are still people that want to hear and sing them.

Incidentally, MOTHER BELOVED is not in the book. But I have it if you get a request. It is frequently requested for 50th and 60th Wedding Anniversary Masses. You see, we do saddle future generations with the 'sins' of popular music of the past.