A...has been raised...

3. Historical pitches

Over the last five centuries—so far as early values can be estimated from old tuning-forks, organs, and other wind instruments—tuning pitch has varied, in the main, over a range of about 300 cents (three semitones), a′ varying from as low as the present g′ up to b♭′ or even above; this is not a great deal considering the length of time. Seldom has any pitch ruled completely for all places and in all circumstances; yet musicians, in travelling from country to country, have tended to bring a measure of uniformity lasting in some cases over fairly long intervals between periods of instability and change. A rough indication of pitch standards going back to the 1690s is given in Table 1.



Read more: http://arts.jrank.org/pages/5202/pitch.html#ixzz0Vjaovia6

Re: Star Spangled Banner

There's some guy out there on a crusade to have people sing TSSB in the key of B. (I think.) Anyway, there's some key that's actually not bad for anyone, albeit you lose the stratospheric sound of the high notes.

I wonder if peoples' range has dropped as our bodies have gotten larger (height and width) over the decades.

I think it is interesting that chant modes started on four lines and three spaces. Do you think the melodies were in general more restricted?

I am fortunate that my range is 2 F's below middle C up to 2 F's above middle C so I can help out my sops by singing their parts for them, but I get strange looks from my choir when I do.

M. Jackson Osborn - You are basically spot on! It is for the most part simple laziness coupled with a lack of knowledge in how to sing correctly and insufficient skills development to do so. There are other factors that have contributed such as the "Entertainment" mentality, microphones, poor acoustical settings, etc. In general, most children and adults in America during at least the past 75 years have not been taught to sing correctly and have not been taught good solid public speaking-presentation skills. All that coupled with societies ever increasing scrutinies towards individuals has help to result in a quasi-self-paranoia about our speak out and singing in public. Yes, pitch has played a part in all this as well as singing in harmony. Think for a moment about the Welsh! In all the world they are famed for singing. They sing unisons, duets, parts, etc., you named it - they just sing out! For the most part, a majority of them sing correctly and well and they sing whatever part they can. They don't usually gripe about it - they just do it! They sing with pride because they care and it is important to them. Ever listened to and studied Welsh Hymnody? Remarkable hymns full of strength, character and vigor yet musically wonderful and well crafted. By the way, many of you may not agree with Dr.Thomas Day's book - "Why Catholics Can't Sing," but it sure has in my opinion, some serious food for thought on this subject and well worth a read.

I once helped out on the organ at a cathedral once for a year. I will never forget one particular Sunday Mass. A elderly retired bishop of the "old school" was asked to celebrate that Mass. The cathedral was full - 1000 + people. After the first fifteen minutes, the bishop stopped the Mass and climbed up into the pulpit. He was FURIOUS at their lack of volume and enthusiasm regarding responses AND singing. For the next ten minutes he gave one of the most heated and scholarly lectures on WHY we as Catholic should be more red blooded in our spoken and sung parts. He stepped down from that pulpit and you could have heard a pin down. WOW for the next 45 minutes, that Mass was - well, beyond words and inspiring to the point that people still talk about it and that was over 30 years ago for me.

Very apt observations, mjballou. Indeed, part of our mission (vocation) is restoring musicality to our culture. Singing is human nature, and people who can't or won't sing have been culturally deprived and spiritually impoverished. ( As for your songbird grandmother - I often tell people that we are supposed to make a joyful noise unto the Lord, and the only ones who Have to do it in tune are the choir.)

Hmmm... It's an American dilema. We are on the verge of a songless church. Hopefully the CMAA can have some reversing effect.

I am a soprano. I have led the singing in six churches over a period of more than thirty years. Inevitably I get complaints that I sing too high. I sing where the music is written.
In my present church I was given D as the upper limit and never sing above it yet the complaints persist. You are correct in saying that if the parish likes a hymn they suddenly have no trouble with the top note (D). It is disheartening to have to push my voice down and sing on my break constantly. This idea that it's no big deal to croak on the low notes as long as you don't screech on the high ones is misguided. Both are poor choices. When I first started leading I did it acappella and had no problem getting folks to sing. Now I read on your other threads that only organists should lead singing and we who can sing spoil it all. Doesn't this attitude strike any one else as foolish and unfair? With that sort of undercurrent, no wonder people aren't anxious to sing. And what is wrong with people who sing by singing quietly? My parish sings but not loudly. If they are comfortable with that what is the big deal about insisting they show off and sing with a loud voice? Singing is very physical and many are old and frail. What can you expect?

Is it not also possible that, in the past, people sang in four part harmonies?

I have always been told that this has a lot to do with it. Pitch too low, and the basses & altos will not be heard.

Mennonites, at least the traditional congregations around Fresno, do so with stunning artistry in every choral aspect, accompanied or not.
RCC's, Francis? Not in 42 years.

Perhaps this will rumple some feathers; but, maybe it should.

If you want Catholics to sing 4-part harmony, you have to provide them with 4-part music to sing from. It is a moral and intellectual cop-out that has been perpetuated upon would be and potential singers in the pews that, for decades upon decades, hymnals and other music aids have been provided that are melody-only. Four-part choir and/or accompaniment editions don't count, unless thesed are what actually appear in the pew-racks.

Individual parishioners should never have be told, "You know, there is a 4-part choir edition available that you might considering purchasing for yourself if you want to sing in harmony." And this should not be perceived as an economic issue on the part of the church (or, as they might plead, the editors and publishers of hymnals), because it is really a pastoral issue – pastoral in the sense of tending to the entirety of ones flock. The squeaky old saw (largely from the hymnal publishers, but also from the penny-pinching powers that be who decide what hymnals are purchased for the church) that, if you compare costs of the melody-only against the 4-part (choir) editions of their hymnals, you can see that 4-part editions are much more expensive and hence a poor investment for a church. This is hogwash!

Of course the cost of a 4-part hymnal is much higher – but not because it is that much more expensive to produce. No, it is largely a matter of marketing and sales: they sell perhaps one 4-part hymnal to every 100 melody-only hymnals, and the lower price of the melody-only hymnal largely represents the mass-marketing and production savings of large production runs – not the additional size and cost of production of a limited production run. For a hymnal available in both a melody-only and a 4-part (choir) edition, the pricing might be something like $17 and $30 respectively. But if that publisher only produced a 4-part hymnal, then the cost of such a hymnal, while both more because of increased size and less than might be expected because of mass marketing and single product line savings, could well be something like $20 or $21, possibly less (if one didn't have to compete with other publishers that market both kinds of hymnals).

I often wonder if the prevailing view is, "We don't care whether Catholics sing or not, just as long as we have a few cantors or, with luck, a choir." What a myopic vision for a church that is supposed to be one that actually sings the Mass.

I think a major reason for poor congregational singing is the last 40 something years of guitar led contemporary music that leaves little to no true training in how to sing. The "feel good" music of the past generation has melodies and rhythms that are "poppy", and, therefore, have a "sing to the radio" mentality about them. If our congregations are to start singing more, we need to overcome this contemporary mentality. I would suggest transposing hymnody to easier keys for the general population. Once the people are comfortable singing hymnody with organ accompaniments, then we can bring the keys up to their original pitches. One of the complaints I've gotten with concern to hymnody is the keys in which they are written. Bringing them down a half or whole step has helped.

(oh, I have been luhhhhhhhhhhhvin' my new organ with the automatic transpose knob! ;-) )

Db is challenging

The "feel good" music of the past generation has melodies and rhythms that are "poppy".

I suppose suppositions like this is why the CMAA gods allow me to continue hanging around to keep things real.
There is nothing "poppy" intrinsic in Janet Sullivan Whitaker's "In Every Age."
Or Bob Hurd's "Ubi caritas," or Mike Joncas' "Sacramentum caritatis", or Barbara Bridge's "We walk by faith," or John Schiavone's "Amen, el Cuerpo de Cristo," or Bernadette Farrell's "All that is hidden," or Rick Manalo's "Pange lingua"...etc., etc.
If one's deepest wish is dispose of the whole of two generations' worth of inspiration and effort simply out of convenience or prejudice, then be prepared to inherit the wind by dumping Nestor, Savoy, Verdi, Hughes et al as well. If not, then KNOW each and every piece you ascribe to be "poppy."

One time I had a cantor complain to me that a certain hymn was too high. I proceeded to ask her if she could sing a different hymn and she said she could. After that I told her that the second hymn went just as high as the first. I knew she personally didn't like the first hymn, so I was pointing out to her that it wasn't a lack of ability, but a lack of desire in her case.

I've not really had complaints from the congregation about singing range. For the most part, they don't even try singing except for about five church favorites.

It is unfair to assume that my comment is my "deepest wish to dispose of the whole two generations' worth of inspiration and efforts simply out of convenience or prejudice". Prior to becoming DM of my parish, I was the pianist for a lot of praise and worship music and, as a musician, found any kind of music enjoyable to play and sing. My comments above were in response to a comment about why congregations have such trouble singing hymnody. While there are certainly exceptions to everything, as you generously outlined, the fact remains that a great deal of contemporary church music of the past 40 years does have a pop feel to it and people find it easier to sing. Of course, this is only my innocent observations, but they are based on my personal experiences in several parishes.

LOL, Gavin! (I did that once, for a funeral, on an organ I wasn't very familiar with. The cantor was obnoxiously bossy and kept saying things like, "and this one you can turn down 3." [or whatever.] After the first one she came over and was like "um...you turned the knob the wrong way..." I felt kind of bad...she probably thought I was doing it on purpose!)

I've never found four-part singing essential in congregations. First, I respect the strong tradition of unison singing of Gregorian chants, Lutheran chorale tunes, and the like. Second, four-part singing requires four-part music in hymnals. Third, the chances of the four vocal parts being represented in any particular part of the congregation are pretty slim. Focus on strong unison singing; the choir can provide four-part singing on inner stanzas if desired.

ScottK, I agree. I've never heard it done well. For those in favor of it, I would challenge anyone to play a recording of how it sounds in actual practice (not from the choir loft: from the pews). That would end the practice real quick.

CHGiffen...as a low alto...I thank you. Although with the help of a good voice teacher my range is increasing again, for years I had much difficulty with unison singing.

a couple of summers ago i was playing a recessional piece with a trumpet player for a wedding and i was supposed to turn the transposer BACK TO 0 (which was on 4 for the piece before it).

I forgot...

Needless to say, the trumpet DOES NOT ADJUST to the key the organist is playing in. (Thank God he kept on playing... have you ever seen (and heard) a frowning brass player staring at you while playing in a different key that you are playing in?!

So for the first three measures it sounded much like Ives as I turned the knob WHILE I was playing the piece...

descending chromatic chords of the trumpet voluntary in four different keys until I matched the trumpet...

Da
Da
Da
Da

From that point on, I have DESPISED the transposer knob. The mind is a much safer mechanism.

In our cathedral, the transposer engaged once without anyone turning the knob, so the hymn went up a half-step in the middle of a verse; and a few lines later it went up again; and yet again. The Eminent celebrant had a puzzled look on his face.

Sorry Musicteacher. I should have read more. My dad stopped attending Mass thanks to Kumbaya. The early stuff, especially when they took a pop tune and forced pious words onto it--I think that was done a lot with the ordinaries--was the worst. But so much wonderful stuff has been done in the last 20 years.
Why is it being bossy to ask for an organ accompaniment in a key that suits the vocalist?
If you have a knob is it that hard to learn to turn it? Although one can sing in a wide range, certain songs if put in a bad key lie on one's break notes and become devilish to sing well and a strain to a trained voice. It just plain is like playing the organ with a hammer instead of your fingers. Sooner or later it's gonna get broken.
The you sing too high is an excuse like so many others for people who either don't like the selection, don't like the cantor or don't like to sing. I was told by a pastor I had sung a hymn too high and it was the one with the lowest upper note of all the hymns of the day. It's pure bullying. For that man I had to play/sing with a metronome in my ear to convince him that I was doing it the tempo he wanted. He would have me sing each hymn ahead of time and sometimes with the collusion of an usher tweek the tempo up or down a notch. Even with that he once claimed I hadn't done it the right tempo. He was dying of cancer so he had gotten to be particularly hard to please.
If only there were not this everybody sing dictum we'd all have half a chance to do a decent job!