Whose Mass is it anyway? Some critical observations on the Novus Ordo liturgy
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,245
    i am preparing an article for inclusion into a major journal regarding the Novus Ordo. The premise is that the Novus Ordo does not belong to the Church anymore ( or maybe never did) but belongs solely to the priest. Case in point: A priest such as the one I work for does things with the tlm in mind. He celebrates ad orientem, uses the canonical digits and generally his ars celebrandi is that of a traditional priest. If he fell over dead tomorrow, the diocese could send another priest that might not carry the same stylistic points. Thus, the parish is at the mercy of the priest at the moment. And the continuity would dissapear. And so it goes...on and on.

    This cycle could go on indefinitely and in my mind leaves a parish reeling for the changes wrought by the various clerics. This to me is the major defect of the Novus Ordo. And while I wish the church's statements and rules would have a positive effect, even my traditionalist pastor screws the rubrics regarding such matters as readings of the day, abusing the sung parts of Mass for what he percieves as "better" ways of doing things and other matters.

    I invite you to think with me on this question. I do not wish to go to the tlm versus NO question. Contain your comments just to the NO. I know,we should do what the Church asks but many clerics do not feel inclined, even traditionalists as well as progressive ones. Having done the NO for 40 years but also knowing the tlm, I understand the problems. I personally prefer the tlm for some of these reasons.

    Thank you in advance,
    KF
    Thanked by 2tomjaw trentonjconn
  • Benton
    Posts: 18
    Any priest who feels so inclined could choose to not follow the rubrics of the ‘62 or ‘55 missal. He could choose to celebrate versus populum. We have historical evidence of these things occurring before the reformed liturgy. Discussions such as these seem to be unproductive because of these facts. Of course, as the ‘62 missal exists nowadays, most are celebrated with care and attention to rubrics, which of course is a good thing.

    An example which informs my perspective: I was organist at the SSPX chapel in Kansas City for a year and they have a microphone on the celebrant constantly during High Mass. I found it very disconcerting. I find the same thing present in the reformed liturgy, most of the time disconcerting. And I don’t think the rubrics mention microphones. Yet, their use can change the liturgy just as dramatically as versus populum or ad orientem.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,489
    Benton

    And that kind of thing would become more likely if the pre-conciliar use were to become the default, rather than in the care of communities that are self-selected to desire the proper ars celebranda for it.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen davido
  • smvanroodesmvanroode
    Posts: 1,093
    I think the premise is wrong, for two reasons:

    It contradicts the ecclesiology that the current Roman Missal is permeated with, attested not only by its euchology, but also by the General Instruction of the Roman Missal and the statements of Popes Paul VI, John Paul II and Benedict XVI. I can’t provide concrete examples right away, but Sacramentum caritatis comes to mind…

    The example you give is about priests not following the instructions of the Roman Missal and the GIRM. That’s a problem with liturgical obedience, not with the rite itself. One cannot conclude from such abuses that the rite is deficient.

    Sure, the current Roman Missal allows the priest at times to choose from different options, but that shouldn’t result in contradicting ways the Mass is celebrated. When it does, it’s not because of the rite, but, generally, of people not following the rite. In your discussion, you should at least be aware of the fact that you take a behavioral approach. One aspect is that the prescriptive nature of liturgical instructions (rubrics tell you what to do) is mixed up with a proscriptive interpretation (if it isn’t forbidden by the rubrics, it’s allowed). This isn’t evoked by the current Missal, but a result of a divergence that hasn’t been corrected thoroughly.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,245
    When it does, it’s not because of the rite, but, generally, of people not following the rite. In your discussion, you should at least be aware of the fact that you take a behavioral approach. One aspect is that the prescriptive nature of liturgical instructions (rubrics tell you what to do) is mixed up with a proscriptive interpretation (if it isn’t forbidden by the rubrics, it’s allowed). This isn’t evoked by the current Missal, but a result of a divergence that hasn’t been corrected thoroughly.


    A most excellent point and well received.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,919
    We still have the problem that the same N.O. Missal used in the London Oratory, can be also be used as part of a balloon mass, or giant puppet mass. While you do have the GIRM, the number of options in the Missal, leads to a priest centric liturgy or a liturgy at the whim of the Liturgy committee.

    While we can say this is a bug, many people see this as a feature. This is the main reason I never consider attending the NO, you never know what you are going to get!

    If the missal encourages optionitis, that is what you are going to get!
    Thanked by 1davido
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,919
    @Benton
    Any priest who feels so inclined could choose to not follow the rubrics of the ‘62 or ‘55 missal. He could choose to celebrate versus populum.
    The TLM is celebrated ad orientem, in a number of Roman basilica's the TLM has always been celebrated on the high Altar ad orientem and also ad populum.

    So it is not wrong to celebrate the TLM ad populum.

    With the very strong rubrics that leave no room for novelties, and de Defectibus, the TLM Missal is not easily messed around with. This is a feature not a bug.
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,245
    Please limit your comments to the Novus Ordo.
  • AbbysmumAbbysmum
    Posts: 124
    The premise is that the Novus Ordo does not belong to the Church anymore ( or maybe never did) but belongs solely to the priest.[...] If he fell over dead tomorrow, the diocese could send another priest that might not carry the same stylistic points. Thus, the parish is at the mercy of the priest at the moment.


    So, two thoughts.

    One, as correctly pointed out above, that's largely a not-following-the-rite problem. It's not inherent to the NO, but it's certainly facilitated by it by the sheer number of options permitted even within the scope of licit and normal.

    Second, I'll share my experience in my NO parish, because we have two priests (a pastor and a parochial vicar), and it's vastly different experiences.

    I'll preface this by saying I've always gone to NO parishes, but have gone to TLM a handful of times when the opportunity has arisen. Otherwise, my nearest TLM is 2.5 hours away, so I just go to my local parish. I don't think I've gone to TLM twice with the same priest, but the experience has been quite uniform every time I've gone.

    So, our parochial vicar is a fairly new priest, having been ordained in the past 5-6ish years. Like the majority of the recent ordinations in our diocese, he's not super young, having come to the priesthood after already having another career (IDK if that makes a difference or not - my experience has been that these men have lived a "normal" life for years before entering seminary, and it's gives them a different outlook from those experiences IMO).

    I adore when Fr. Parochial Vicar is saying Mass. He is so careful, so reverent, so by-the-book. It's beautiful. He consistently says the Eucharistic Prayer I (Roman Canon), his homilies are relatively short but very to-the-point and always makes me think about what he has to say. He is meticulous about the rubrics, so careful with the hosts (and so incredibly aware of each crumb and fragment of those hosts), and spends a great deal of his time in prayer and contemplation, yet is very approachable and friendly and easy to talk to - he always has time for us. He takes his time to get the important things right. You get the sense of the sacred when it's "his" Mass. He's also highly predictable - as a musician, I know exactly what to expect in tone, text, and process, precisely because he's so wedded to the rubrics and will consistently do the same options.

    Contrast that to Fr. Pastor. While I get that he's much busier, being the leader of our parish and involved with other things at the diocesan level, his Masses are more... I'm not sure if "rushed" is the right word here, but there's definitely a forward momentum that drags you along. Everything is always the shortest version possible, he's always moving, and there's very much a sense of having to "get this done". Don't misinterpret me - I also love Fr. Pastor. He is a good and holy man and a very wise priest and I'm thankful for his energy and presence. But Mass is a *very* different experience with him. As a musician, it's sometimes difficult to keep up with him, in the sense that you're never sure if he's going to follow the rubrics exactly, or he will spontaneously want you to play/sing something specific, you're never sure of the order of things (this is especially true for funerals), so you have to be on your toes. If he has three choices, he may do three different things in three different Masses (then again, maybe not - you never know).

    Would we have the same contrast with the TLM? Perhaps. Fr. Pastor's perpetual energy and need to move on to the next task would be there, so I imagine that sense of urgency would still be present. But there couldn't be shortcuts, or resequencing or any of the other things that tend to give me headaches. Fr. Parochial Vicar would still be careful and reverent as ever. But the core of the Mass would be identical. As it is, right now, they are very different Masses between the two priests, so yes, in that sense, the NO "belongs to the priest", and not the people.
    Thanked by 1Chant_Supremacist
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 299
    Because there were no rubrics for the people in TLM, there is actually a greater variety of option especially in a low mass. If you want to have a Jewish operatic tenor sing an Ave Maria over the opening rites of a funeral mass, have at it.