Pronunciation of Hebrew words in Church Latin
  • probe
    Posts: 62

    Back in Oct 2015, @madorganist asked about Hebrew pronunciation.
    Adonai = /ˌædɒˈnaɪ/ (ad-oh-NIGH) or, as three four syllables /ˌædɒˈneɪaɪ/ (ad-oh-NAY-eye). Occurs in the "O" antiphons and some versions of "O Come, O Come Emmanuel."

    May I check, as we're doing 'Veni, Veni, Emmanuel', about Adonai and Sinai?
    The Youtube recordings I have checked from religious sources give Ah-do-nah-ee and Seen-ah-ee.

    What's the recommended practice? As pronounced in Hebrew, or in Latin, or Italian?

    Thank you,
    Patrick


  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    That’s correct.

    They’re Latin words and behave like them. Those are the correct pronunciations for those words, BUT, and this is why I prefer transcriptions (that many musicians know from opera classes or language class): unless for etymological reasons you need to have vowel-consonant (ad-o-ra-re, because ad- is a prepositional prefix to the infinitive; sic-ut, not si-cut), Latin tends to prefer (vowel-)consonant-vowel: /si.na.i/, not /sin.a.i/, which is important not just for choral diction but for chant in particular, since, if you create a score in square notation you have to hard-code syllabification in gabc and you don’t know if a hyphen will be created or not until after the score is generated. (With modern notation, of course you syllabify yourself too, and many CPDL scores have mistakes, but you can see and proofread at least, with just a few clicks back to fix it…)

    This is the same for Tenebrae, the Gospel, etc.

    There are quite a discussions on here about “Israel”: /is.ra.ɛl/, without a diphthong. (Wiktionary mysteriously gives /el/ for the last syllable, but it should be an ɛ) It’s not “Eez-rye-l”; sorry to depart from IPA, but it drives the point home. /mi.ka.ɛl/ for Michael. /da.ni.ɛl/ for Daniel. /a.a.ron./ (I’m not including lengthening, and unusually Wiktionary gives a phonetic transcription, but it’s basically what I give: [ˈaː.a.ron]). I do, uh, get a lot of laughs from the now-elder Millennials (we’re all elder Millennials) who grew up with Key and Peele when I teach this.

    And so on and so forth.

    Anyway there’s a comment there that deserves more treatment:

    For Latin, if one follows the Italian pronunciation (as we should in English-speaking countries), s between two vowels is softened and pronounced like z.


    No, that’s backwards. A /z/ is voiced, /s/ voiceless (if we use hard and soft, which doesn’t make sense, then hard is voiced, soft is voiceless), and in all cases it’s supposed to be voiceless. This is not French, which voices the consonant in “Joseph”.

    In Latin, it’d be /jo.sɛf/, or should be. Is it often voiced anyway in words like “miserere”? Sure, but I do think that I’m right that most people don’t voice the middle consonant of “Joseph”…
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,627
    Most English people voice the s in Joseph, I have never noticed an unvoiced example in 87 years, I think it would stand out.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 426
    There seems to be some confusion, as the linked post is about English choral diction, not Latin. Ah-do-nah-ee and See-nah-ee are correct in Latin. Voiced versus unvoiced intervocalic s in Latin is a can of worms, but various sources mention evidence for sonorization by the 4th century. Mass and Vespers (1957) is more helpful than the Liber in this regard:
    S as in sea; but between vowels it is slightly softened; ex. the s in miserere is less close to z than in Engl. misery.
    Although the soft-hard terminology isn't used by linguists in this context, it should be obvious that the "soft" variant referred to is the voiced z sound, not the unvoiced ss. For whatever it's worth, Wikipedia categorizes the voiced intervocalic s as an "informal" pronunciation. This can get rather pedantic, and some choirmasters who insist on Jessu, misserere, vissibilium, etc. don't take any steps to correct omnez, baptizma, or eleizon.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Right, Patrick, the linked post is about English but devolved (as my quotation and comment show) into Latin.

    I would take _Mass and Vespers_ to be agreeing with my characterization, since the intervocalic consonant there is still closer to the s of sea and farther from voiced /z/ than English speakers (and French ones for that matter) would be inclined to pronounce at first sight.

    The _Laus in ecclesia_ manual takes up this pronunciation scheme (it’s mostly very good, but there are some things that nobody treats, mostly certain consonants, whether from Solesmes, Fontgombault and its daughter houses, their friends…and Fontgombault often leaves out the final /t/ of “Sabaoth”!). And while I have fought a mostly losing battle on the /z/ versus /s/ front of vowel-s-vowel (as v-ss-v is only voiceless) we do have /s/ in the other cases (at least in the schola). I can’t say for sure that members of the congregation never voices the consonant in the latter case.

    I try not to (deliberately) insert French-accented Latin, certainly not when singing, but I think that it does help me, and while native speakers would struggle at first with the “Joseph” example that I gave above, the final written -s, when it is pronounced in French especially in family names, is always voiceless, -s dropped out in many places, but not in _Baptiste…_ anyway, point being, I can say to the schola, look, these things are may be not easy for native English speakers, but they’re possible (and I demonstrate) or they’re just done in another place; as an aside, we have a native Portuguese (Brazilian) speaker, so we _do_ pronounce initial ps- like French (which happens to be in the middle of English words, like _autopsy_) since otherwise he sticks out.

    @a_f_hawkins, obviously, but I was also talking about Latin and never switched to talking about English.
  • The pronunciation you have preferred is the correct one.
    Only, one should be very carefull with those '-ees'. I prefer a somewhat clipped 'ih' sound - as in the word 'it'.
  • Then is it A-men, or Ah-men? Actual question.
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    Off topic, the vowel-consonant thing reminds me of a late beloved choir director who said he did not want runts or wusses. Referring to (Messiah) 'Faw runto wuss a child is born'.
    Thanked by 2Liam CHGiffen
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    We're singing Veni,Veni all in Latin, so that was the pronunciation convention I was asking about.

    @M. Jackson Osborn by '-ees' do you mean the 'Is-' of Israel? I expect Latin would be Ees-rah-el (sorry, I'm not fluent in IPA) but Ihs-rah-el sounds OK to me. But then although Ah-do-nai is what I'm used to in English (and Hebrew if I can believe some Youtube pronunciation tutorials) I'll have to go for Ah-do-nah-ee as @MatthewRoth says, at 3:13 in this video by the Spanish Verbum Gloriae .
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    The /i/ vowel is the correct first example. The difference is the different vowels of bee and bit (as in kit etc. too), the vowel of which would be /ɪ/…

    It cannot be a diphthong or just not quite there. You have to learn to hear the difference and work on it. Warm-ups are a good time for that.

    For my part I only change to /ɪ/ if a diphthong comes up despite repeated practice of the diction like when followed by a consonant (the first syllable of Spiritui)

    As an aside, Ky-ri-e is a problem for my people; the first syllable should not rhyme with clear, and while I take the point that any melisma makes it worse, changing the vowel is inelegant at best (because the congregation also sings this), but we do have to change /e/ in some contexts to some other vowel (at this point the symbols don’t matter, you’ll get a bunch of possibilities presented) in the propers; Americans lengthen Spanish é as in José which is fine in speech even in nonnative Spanish but it’s a problem when singing chant. Good singing technique matters.
    Thanked by 1probe
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    'Faw runto wuss a child is born'.

    "kwee tollee spicatta moondee" - Spicatta Moondee is this morning's brunch special.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen probe
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    @continuousbass Ah-men as the A sound (as in day) is for the letter e.
    Latin:English a:ah (~am), e:ay (d~ay), i:ee (b~eef), o:aw (c~ot) u:oo (f~ood)
    (I know, it would be better in IPA, and I'd have to either learn the keycodes or have a popup symbol keyboard handy.)

    Edit: Actually it's more complicated than that, I was only thinking of Italian above. Don't mind me, here's a more official guide




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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    My go-to for IPA.

    My thought though is that Latin vowels are a little taller and higher in the mouth, with the mouth essentially being stretched open… in French phonetics (really phonemics but I digress) we had mirrors and watched how we said certain vowels. Singers should do this too!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,464
    Latin vowels are a little taller and higher in the mouth,


    Aw, c'mon, all red-blooded Amurkans squish the formation of our vowels, dontcha' know? Those vowels need to have the life squeezed out of 'em, if they knows what's good for 'em.
  • Probe -
    I mean Ih-srah-ihl.
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    Thanks @MatthewRoth - all that TypeIt needs now is a speech renderer so I know what those symbols sound like. I must check out ipa-reader.com . Heck, what I also want is a speech-to-IPA ASR app. ;)
    Thanked by 1MatthewRoth
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Liam although I didn't grow up in New England, I have some naturally (aunt is not the same as ant for me), others are maybe a wee bit more affected, and so it's funny singing with guys from Jersey, Brazil, Chicago, Kentucky, and beyond…
    Thanked by 1Liam
  • Thanks @probe for the latin sheet; seen that a few times at workshops.

    Here's the Hebrew... it sounds like the A- is more of a combination of Ah & Uh, as in the /ə/ sound. A short and unstressed /ə/. -men as we say men in America, at a slightly higher pitch.

    https://translate.google.com/details?sl=auto&tl=en&text=אָמֵן&op=translate

    On my side of the Rockies always spoken Ayee-men, always chanted Ahhh-men.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 3,210
    Yeah that sounds right (although I hear less distinction between spoken and sung Amen, in English).
  • probe
    Posts: 62
    I imagine that the authoritative and exhaustive guide is the Gregorian Institute of America one by Rev. Andrew Klarmann. I have to confess TL;DR.