Advice needed: auditions and job applications
  • Thanks, kevinf. You're right that there is a lesson to learn here on my part, and I should read your reply in the spirit in which it was intended. That whole situation was a wakeup call in many ways.

    In retrospect, I'm happy to expunge most of those modern psychological terms from my vocabulary.

    Someone told me that adding 25% or more hours to an FSLA-exempt employee's written duties is just illegal. But the bottom line is, if a situation has gone to the point of legal language, there's usually no logical way forward.
  • I have also been scammed out of funeral pay in the past (thankfully, never weddings). In two ways:

    1 - A job where they WERE stipended, but when I met the substitute organist after taking the job she informed me that she played most of them. She had been there for decades, knew everyone, and there wasn't much I could do.

    2 - A job where the priest looked me in the eye and shook my hand, agreeing that weddings and funerals would be on top of the salary we had just negotiated. And then proceeded to take a funeral musician fee from the family, but not pass it on to me (took me a couple months to get wise to this). This was to "help pay my salary" according to him. Very nearly quit over that one, but ultimately I still got wedding stipends and the funeral fiasco alone was not enough to push me out. Things improved later with a different priest.

    Both of which to say - even when you think you've negotiated this, there are pitfalls. If it's not in writing and signed by all concerned, well...

    But at the same time, wedding and funeral stipends are BY FAR the norm, and I wouldn't blacklist the entire profession because of the backward/ignorant exceptions.
  • This was to "help pay my salary" according to him.


    This practice is actually even worse, from an ethical perspective, than the deceit of bait-and-switching you. Now, we all know that line about stealing from you to pay you is BS, but read between the lines about what he's actually saying: "I'm in charge, your wages belong to me, and this is your fault." I can't actually imagine coming into a mental state where I could say the following to an employee under my purview: "we're taking money from you to pay your salary." The actual definition of unethical treatment of employees.

    But at the same time, wedding and funeral stipends are BY FAR the norm, and I wouldn't blacklist the entire profession because of the backward/ignorant exceptions.


    Is unethical treatment the exception, though? - are all these narratives from colleagues just an outspoken minority? Even if those things are true, the question becomes whether the likelihood of such treatment, sudden termination, etc. becomes a categorical dealbreaker for us in a given situation. If in the best of cases, there's a significant chance that my boss can walk into my office on a random Tuesday and leave us literally stranded on the prairie, shouldn't I consider leaving the field? I'm not a bachelor anymore.
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  • Is unethical treatment the exception, though?
    In general, I think so. And often it happens out of ignorance, not malice. Some hole-in-the-wall churches don't realize that it's standard to receive extra stipends for these things, especially if BettySue volunteered for the last 26 years prior to your arrival. Then there are the priests who emphasize the "ministry" aspect of it, so they think that they are achieving a moral good by not nickle-and-dimining parishioners, not realizing that it has a significant effect on your bottom line when supporting a family and paying for a mortgage. And while many of us all have a story to tell, many of us have worked for multiple churches. So if only one of the 6 parishes I've spent any time at has had an issue, it's a statistical minority at least in my dataset. But I've done this for many years at this point, and have encountered lots of different churches, priests, secretaries, etc. It only takes one business manager with a bee in her bonnet (or a pastor for that matter) to upend the apple cart. But that's a "them" issue, and not necessarily indicative of the broader culture. Most places I have ever played (catholic or protestant) have had absolutely no issue whatsoever making sure I was paid. They were usually thrilled I was even there to begin with, since bonafide well-trained organists are increasingly rare.

    Interestingly, I'd wager that many of us also have horror stories about other, non-financial issues we've had at parishes, with either toxic culture, or a difficult priest, or any other myriad of things... and yet we don't write off the church as a whole for those experiences. We acknowledge them for what they were: peculiar circumstances involving specific people. I treat the finance situation the same way.
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  • I do think the bad treatment is the exception, based on 20 years of talking to colleagues in the field. But it is also the most stressful and destructive treatment when it does happen, and the most likely for us to hear about. Nobody posts here to say "I just wanted to check in and say, everything is going great!" Maybe we should more...

    Another thing I try to remind myself of when the grass looks greener in other fields - in most jobs, technically, they can walk in on Tuesday and fire you. Even the high power corporate behemoth you work for can suddenly merge or downsize. Bosses change in other fields too - many of them are toxic (I remember some study showing the vast majority of people who walk away from jobs do so because of toxic management).

    But that said, yes, there is a particularly vulnerable and subjective element to working in church music, good jobs are hard to find, so it's hard to get out of a bad position, etc. It is not a field I would recommend to my kids, for example. Particularly if you are trying to do the uber Catholic thing and be open to life and support a family with a stay at home spouse.

    But that said, I do have a very stable and supportive position right now that I've been at for 13+ years.

    But that said, considering a field shift looks very different when you are 28 and fresh out of grad school, vs in your 40s - that 3-5 years of schooling into a different field only puts you in your early to mid 30s vs pushing 50. So my advice might be if this is truly discerning as a bad path in life, to make the shift sooner rather than later. Your 40s come fast, and if things are still bad then, it's a whole different life issue!
  • davido
    Posts: 1,170
    Find a different job than music. You don’t want to work every weekend.
  • Update: I am out!

    After the last update here, I was approved by the state for funding to get training to enter another field. Starting pay is $80k, and you work four tough days a week. On Sunday mornings I can belt Alstott jingles for the local beach chapel if I want to. Suave! I'll have a blast putting Handel concertos on Spotify all day while delivering pallets of packaged food to local restaurants. Good way to stay in shape!

    It's quite a change. The last time I wasn't doing music all day every day was when I was too young to remember it now. I have come to realize that you can't put a price tag on the investment I've made personally, so there's no use trying to recoup it, especially when I have to rely on others who might be untrustworthy.

    If a church job comes up, well, it would have to be a very special place for me to consider putting my name in the hat, but I'm not excluding the possibility.

    I know I'm not the only one to have gone through this. The BS happening in the field, which many old schoolers sometimes see as typical and expected, is just disastrous for those just trying to enter. I hope the Church fixes it soon, because a time is coming when it's not going to fly. I mean, just take my case as something that shouldn't even be possible.

    Many thanks for all of the support, advice, and encouragement!
  • francis
    Posts: 11,240
    You know, a simple book about the business of church music which includes all the necessary categories that should be discussed would be a great little asset. Perhaps even a longer article for the journal? I know the AGO tried to do this across the board, but for catholic music positions it would be invaluable.

    There should be a section for pastors, A section for administrations, a section for Music directors, and a section for organists. And it might be good to have a section for people getting married or being buried! There should definitely be a section for volunteer musicians. And amateur musicians should definitely be addressed.

    Title:

    What Happened to the Levitical Order?

    or

    Tithes to the Levites

    or

    The Mass: Music & Money

    or

    Put Your Money Where Your Music Is

    or…
  • As Zelenskyy said about Russia last year, can you make a speech to someone with no ears?* But I like the idea! Maybe the format of a published book would be more appealing to the clergy than Googling "how to hire an organist on a budget."

    I have a very long diatribe in my brain about how apprenticeships would go a long way to help the underlying issues in Catholic church music land. Maybe I will post it here some time soon. The problem is that it is one of those speeches that always sounds much better over a pint.

    *Edit: Not to go too hard on the clergy. What I meant was that if there was a desire to improve hiring processes, working culture, etc., it would have happened already.
    Thanked by 2irishtenor francis