What hymnal do you recommend for a TLM community?
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    Can someone with a copy of the St. Michael Hymnal (5th edition) let me know which Latin Mass Ordinaries it contains? My online searches are coming up with nothing. Thanks!
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,885
    It is admittedly curious that they have so much of the index, but not all of it on the website. Nevertheless, under the downloads section, you can see the ordinaries that they let you download which are part of the hymnal:
    https://www.stmichaelhymnal.com/download-hymns/5th-edition-downloads/
    Thanked by 1irishtenor
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    Thanks! I found Masses 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 16, and 17.
    Follow up question...does anyone have a recommendation for a hymnal for a TLM community? I would like something that has the Gregorian Masses (1, 8, 9, 11, 17 are the ones we use most often), a good selection of hymns, and a SATB choir hymnal.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    Your best bet is the (SSPX) Pius X Hymnal. It has the masses listed, as well as a choral edition of SATB hymns and chants. There’s a good selection of chant, but their hymn arrangements leave something to be desired.

    Our parish is going the route of buying the Brebeuf Hymnal and supplement it with the Daniel Kyriale.
    Thanked by 2ServiamScores tomjaw
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    What about Noel Jones’ Catholic Book of Hymns and Chants?
    https://sacredmusiclibrary.com/hymnal
    Thanked by 2irishtenor VeritasEtCaritas
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    I have created a TLM hymnal. PM me.
    Thanked by 1rvisser
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    (SSPX) Pius X Hymnal


    IIRC, it's good to take the pitch down by a full step unless that's been fixed in the last few years.
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    @davido - I looked up the Catholic Book of Hymns and Chants and it’s not clear if it has Latin Ordinaries. I really like that it’s SATB, though.
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    Does anyone use the St. Edmund Campion Missal and Hymnal?
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    @rvisser - send Noel Jones a message and he'll send you a perusal copy in hard copy or PDF
  • davido
    Posts: 942
    Page 22 of this doc https://totus-integrus.nyc3.digitaloceanspaces.com/TXJUHLAYOSKC7NTZ3JED6QLFZJK36ZO9ANVHVPD52HK1OVP7/original indicates that A Catholic Book of Hymns and Chantscontains Gregorian masses 1, 2, 8, 9, 11, 16, 17, and 18
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    Our parish has the St. Edmund Campion Missal and Hymnal.
    I'm not a huge fan, but maybe that's because I'm not a huge fan of very many English hymns. For the Mass I mostly just prefer Latin, just from an aesthetic perspective if nothing else. It sounds more dignified and sacred to me.

    But to get back to the hymnal, the typesetting is pretty good, and the Kyriale is just fine, if a basic Kyriale is all you need. Although personally, my favorite Kyriale is the one I made myself. The Campion Hymnal is a bit heavy, but I suppose that makes sense, and the pages are glossy. I'm not really sure what else to say. Not the book I'm looking for, but maybe it's right for you. If you have any specific questions I can try to answer them.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    @OMagnumMysterium - are the hymns SATB?

    A bit of background - The TLM moved from the church where I work to a different church building 15 minutes away. This is all in the same church cluster basically. All of the parishes in the cluster use breaking bread missalettes, and at the new church there are no choir hymnals for my TLM choir to use. I don't have enough hymnals (we were using Choral Praise because the texts match Breaking bread) from the first church to bring them over to the second church, so I figured it would be a good time to start over with something decent. I'm getting bored with choosing hymns from breaking bread for the Latin Mass (options are limited and the texts are weird), and I'd also like to avoid printing stuff out every week.

    You have given me many good options to consider! My ideal is a hymnal with an SATB choir book option that also contains the Latin chant Ordinaries. I am intrigued by the St. Edmund Campion Missal because it contains the Sunday propers, but that's not a necessity since I already have those printed and they are available for parishioners to pick up on their way into Mass if they are interested. I currently have no resources available for the congregation to sing the Ordinary (some sing from memory).


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  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    It does not have SATB, just melodies. Although, I can't find it being sold online anyway. It's possible Sophia press is just moving to the model of separate Missals and Hymnals only. I think they're really pushing their new hymnal: https://sophiainstitute.com/product/saint-jean-de-brebeuf-hymnal/

    If you end up getting a hymnal with no Kyriale, theoretically my Kyriale (or any other one) could be printed very inexpensively here: https://www.snowfallpress.com/pricing
    (Although mine still has some issues I need to fix)
    KyrialeComp.pdf
    4M
    Thanked by 2rvisser tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    The Catholic Hymn Book, Gracewing I presume it is still available. We have the 'The Parish Hymn Book', edited by John Rush and published by L J Cary Ltd, although we only use it a few times a year.
    Thanked by 1rvisser
  • Reval
    Posts: 186
    @rvisser
    Our local FSSP has the St. Edmund Campion. I personally like it, however, it is huge and heavy, and sometimes it is just more than I want to hold (I have some arthritis in my thumbs). The congregation literally does not sing a thing here, usually, so the only reason to use it would be as a missal, not a hymnal, and most FSSP people seem to bring their own missals, so they mostly go unused from what I observe.
    EDIT - I will add on that this would probably make a nice "coffee table book", with the beautiful photos that are in here. I just think it's awfully big to be an effective hymnal.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw francis rvisser
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,086
    rvisser
    Does anyone use the St. Edmund Campion Missal and Hymnal?

    We do. You can't get it anymore new as the author has moved to a separate missal/hymnal model.

    As a missal, it's beautiful; as a hymnal, less so. Issues:
    Not a huge selection of hymns.
    Choice of hymn texts is idiosyncratic. I don't care if you have a personal devotion to the English Martyrs; Robert Southwell doesn't sing well.
    Melody line only, and AFAIK no choral supplement.

    We make it work because it's what we have. It's easier because we only do one English hymn per day, split between processional and recessional.
    Thanked by 1rvisser
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 326
    It might not make sense for most churches, but I wonder if a 2 book option might work for somebody...Parish Book of Chant plus another slim English language hymn volume.
    Thanked by 2rich_enough rvisser
  • qubica
    Posts: 2
    The St. John Brebuef Hymnal is fantastic. Four part harmony, wonderful arrangements. https://www.ccwatershed.org/hymn/
    Thanked by 1rvisser
  • Dixit_Dominus_44
    Posts: 195
    For the TLM, the Saint Jean de Brébeuf Hymnal is peerless:



    Dr. Peter Kwasniewski (known through NLM and other hubs) wrote that Brebeuf is “hands down, the best Catholic hymnal ever to be published. Its copious selection of hundreds of tunes and texts, including favorites, forgotten gems, and new commissions, all beautifully formatted and presented in a surprisingly compact hardcover volume, is not only unparalleled by any other current hymnal, but well exceeds that of any hymnal I have seen from any period. It is such a fantastic hymnal that it deserves to be in the pews of every Catholic church.”

    Sacred Heart Parish in Grand Rapids MI uses the Brebeuf at their TLM with great success. (I am a frequent visitor since my relatives are parishioners.) On a sidenote, Sacred Heart is having a fantastic celebration of Palestrina on his 500th anniversary. They are bringing in groups like the Tallis Scholars and the Gesualdo Six:

    https://www.sacredheartgr.org/palestrina500

    Where else could you possibly go to hear the Tallis Scholars sing at Mass?
    Thanked by 1rvisser
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    Recently I published a new hymnal entitled Fleur de lys. Attached are the TOC with some sample pages and photos.

    The wonderful thing about this hymnal is that it is completely customizable. You can add, delete and revise it in any way you desire. The first printing was a cloth cover hard bound edition. (see photos attached)

    It is also very light. (Probably the lightest hymnal on the market.) Some hymnals are very heavy to hold which can be a burden to some people.

    This is strictly a hymnal. There are no missal contents (prayers, readings, etc.)

    Depending upon requested revisions, I can deliver a custom hymnal in a few weeks time.
    fleurDeLysIntroPages.pdf
    2M
    IMG_6583.JPG
    2864 x 2554 - 3M
    IMG_6586.jpg
    3024 x 4032 - 8M
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  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    I looked through the index of the Brebeuf hymnal and don't see any Latin Ordinaries. Does anyone know what's in it?
  • rvisser
    Posts: 54
    Francis - do you have an SATB edition as well?
    Thanked by 1francis
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 621
    I looked through the index of the Brebeuf hymnal and don't see any Latin Ordinaries. Does anyone know what's in it?


    To my knowledge, the Brebeuf Hymnal only contains metrical hymns in modern notation. It does not contain a Kyriale, nor does it contain any hymnody in chant notation. I'm open to correction if I'm wrong, but that's my understanding of the contents.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    I am willing to make a choir edition. If I did, I would probably employ my hybrid notation for the organist for the Kyriale using the NOH modal accomps.

    Example of Hybrid here:

    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/FileUpload/12/96daab6fd8a7f0542a8be4e5e31a9f.pdf

    I would probably also make the notation more exact by using the correct protocol for lining up vowels with neumes (as this example is not quite correct).
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  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    That hybrid notation is really interesting.
    Thanked by 2francis tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.

    (please see thread on Fleur de lys hymnal for contents)

    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19262/fleur-de-lys-hymnal-by-koerber-now-available#Item_63
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium tomjaw ServiamScores
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    Francis, I definitely think your examples (especially the second one) would be much easier for me to play than the original NOH. If I ever have to put together a chant accompaniment, I might try something similar (although the software that I am accustomed to would make it a bit difficult). Admittedly, I am a very amateur organist, and often more comfortable with the square notes than the oval (even for organ), which I know is not a feeling shared by everyone.

    Since you asked, here are my thoughts on chant engravings, and related issues (and I know I'm an extremist in many regards).

    - Gregorio produces the cleanest and nicest scores, so it should be used (in LaTeX for better formatting options), despite the extra time it may take.
    - Ornate initials and decorative title fonts should be used (tastefully), since it is very fitting to ornament the things used for Mass (such as our Altars), especially books and papers which will be reused year after year.
    - Only the first letter of each score should be capitalized (counting a drop cap), not the whole first syllable.
    - Æ, æ, Œ, and œ should be used instead of two separate letters, J not I should be used for the consonant, except in one word which starts with an A, which I dare not type since it is Septuagesima now.
    - The little dots should be used in the appropriate words, like Israël.
    - Accents should be marked on words of three or more syllables.
    - The 1908 Vatican Edition should be used without the Solesmes Rhythmic signs. People should follow the rhythm indicated by the bar-lines, qualisma, and melismatic mora vocis (or however it's spelled).
    - Music books (at least the ones for the choir) should not include English translations. All Catholics, but especially the choir, should be taught liturgical Latin so that they can sing intelligently and fruitfully. At each rehearsal, part of the time should be spent singing the text better, and part of the time should be spent understanding the text better. Teaching people Latin does a lot more good in the long run than giving them translations.

    Here's an example:
    Example.pdf
    21K
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  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    Well, at least you can turn the rhythmic signs on and off in Gregorio. (Most TLM people use the rhythmic signs in some way, and many NO communities do too.)

    By the way, Matthias Bry reports that if you use \greprintsigns{all}{disable}, the bits of horizontal lines that bridge adjacent horizontal episemata into
    one big line still get printed. To disable them, one needs to add \gresethepisema{break}.

    I don't use ë; if you don't know that el never forms a Latin diphthong after a, you have bigger problems (and while we're at it, it's not pronounced /Iz.rai.əl/). But I do use "j" instead of "i" and make the same exception, following the chant books, and I use the ligatures. There is precedent for ligatures; Dom Pothier did so. I have never found out why Solesmes abandoned this. Perhaps the answer is in the archives there or at Saint-Wandrille.

    I strongly agree about avoiding translations. I give the people one. My schola uses books or failing that something that I typeset separately.

    For drop caps and caps of the other letters, I follow whatever is in the Solesmes antiphonale (because I mostly am working with that right now), but short words tend to get a drop cap and then the usual capitals (HIC, HÆC for example). Gregobase usually already has a score with tags applied so I don't think about it. Illustrated follow, in my practice, the antiphonal (first antiphon, sometimes the hymn)
    Thanked by 3tomjaw OMagnumMysterium francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    I was not clear in my question about your preferred engraving. I guess I was looking for the best and most accurate engraving from the official books, LU, Gradual, etc. Some musicians are concerned about the Mora Vocis which I believe is completely absent in the online chant tools. All of the chant in Fleur de lys is set using GABC. However, I am wondering if when creating my hybrid notation for the NOH if the chant line should come from one of the official sources and which one?
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    comment deleted by user.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.

    (please see thread on Fleur de lys hymnal for contents)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.

    (please see thread on Fleur de lys hymnal for contents)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    comment deleted by user.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    OMag...

    It all gets very convoluted very quickly... my take on schools of thought is that they can very easily become rabbit holes that 'us experts' can quite quickly and adamantly seem to need to prove and defend. It really comes down to the DM and what s/he decides to employ parish by parish, schola by schola, liturgy by liturgy.

    Of course the PRIMARY object of the entire excersize is prayer and the worship of the Almighty, and singing out with joy and praise with fullness and purity of heart... and if you get lost in the weeds, turning eyes and thoughts inward, only looking at the stems and the seeds and then the dirt and the rocks, well then, the whole thing really becomes a very highly developed and intricately woven spectacle that leads only to vanity.

    This is NOT to discount the scholarship that goes into such endeavors... but there must be a safeguard to always remember to keep the proper balance between the focus on technique versus just plain loving God with mind, heart, soul and strength.
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  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 259
    comment deleted by user.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,818
    comment deleted by user.

    (MJO version)

    .
  • Musicman5360
    Posts: 1
    We use the Journey Song book, Vol 3. OCP Not a bad hymnal. I also favor Gather. I was raised in the Lutheran Tradition so I look for music that supports the readings and the theme of the day.
  • irishtenoririshtenor
    Posts: 1,325
    I think a TLM community which would accept either JourneySongs or Gather as their hymnal recommendation would be very rare indeed.
    Thanked by 3trentonjconn Liam LauraKaz
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 422
    I’ve never understood the energy devoted to hymnals in some TLM communities. Why not focus the congregation on the chant instead? For that, a plain vanilla Kyriale will do just fine.
    Thanked by 6Anna_Bendiksen Liam CHGiffen OMagnumMysterium tomjaw LauraKaz
  • Anna_BendiksenAnna_Bendiksen
    Posts: 244
    Hear, hear. Even I can see the logic therein.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    In that context, the Kyriale would certainly seem the default cornerstone of pew music *book*.
    Thanked by 4a_f_hawkins CHGiffen OMagnumMysterium tomjaw
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Prior to the late 60s I never heard a hymn at Mass in England, my Westminster Hymnal of 1940 does however refer in an editorial note to the possibility of the congregation singing a hymn from the Benediction section "in place of the customary motet".
    A true community will surely need a hymnal for Benediction, Vespers, Holy Hour, ...
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Paul F. Ford
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    You’re best getting Cantus Selecti or building your own. When we have storage space, I’d rather have our own (spiral-bound) instead of making seasonal copies; I’d just add the page numbers to the Vespers sheet or put numbers on the board.

    For Mass I have no interest whatsoever in a hymnal and would prefer a complete Kyriale; we do I, IV, VIII, IX, XI, XVII (both of the Kyries in the main part of the Kyriale), XVIII, and Credos I, III, and IV. We have room to grow there. I taught 3/4 of Mass X as a warm-up this summer.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @a_f_hawkins Our congregation sings the chants for Benediction without books... For Vespers we have booklets for each Sunday, as for Holy Hours etc. we use bespoke booklets.
    We would not need a new Hymnal, we use Our ancient Parish Hymnals only a few times a year.
    The new Kyriale we had published is getting a second printing...
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 285
    a plain vanilla Kyriale will do just fine
    I am of the opinion that a lot of the Vatican Kyriale is unsuitable for congregational singing. I know of places that attempt the Mass IX Gloria with congregation. Seriously?? If your parishioners are that competent, you might as well pass out octavos of your favorite polyphonic Masses.

    An elderly friend told me that when she had children at home (this would have been the 40s and 50s), they always went to Low Mass on Sunday because her daughter liked to sing. That sounds like an odd statement to a lot of us nowadays, but there were many parishes where congregational singing at Sunday Low Mass was the norm—the much-maligned "four hymn sandwich." If the people are willing, it remains a good way to incorporate music when it isn't feasible to have multiple Sung Masses the same day.
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  • Andrew_Malton
    Posts: 1,185
    At the two traditional Masses near me, one of which I sing at, Mass IX is routinely chosen for Sung Mass on Marian feasts. The faithful sing it -- at least as much as they do the other formularies. Also it's in the “Traditional Roman Hymnal” Kyriale, which we use. So there's a kind of expectation there that the faithful will sing it.
    Thanked by 5FSSPmusic tomjaw mmeladirectress LauraKaz Jeffrey Quick
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