What type of music does the Catholic Church need most?
  • Hello everyone!

    I'm trying to discern what music the Catholic Church is in great need of so I can compose accordingly. Would it be new plainchants? Motets? Mass Ordinaries and/or Propers? And would composing more along the lines of Howells be best? Hildegard? Tallis? Bach? And do know that I'd enjoy the challenge of writing along any of those composers' style and make it my own but also suitable for the Church's needs. PLEASE CHIME IN!

    Blessings!
    - Alex
  • To be honest, and I don't intend this as a slight against your attempt to compose new music for the Church (which is admirable), I think the Church is in most need of authentic Gregorian ordinaries and propers.
  • @trentonjconn That makes sense concerning the liturgy. Thanks for the feedback.
  • For new compositions, I would wish for more English polyphony in the style of Thomas Tallis.

    The St. Louis Musica Sacra event in 2012 was my introduction to Sacred Music, and when I heard the choir beginning to rehearse "If Ye Love Me" in that basement room the first morning, I was utterly, totally, absolutely blown away. Never heard anything like that. The whole experience changed my life forever. (And I love Tallis' music so much I would name a son after him, should God give me one.)

    Polyphony is beautiful in Latin, and I love Latin (goodness, I teach Latin!) but there is such a need for people who are like I was, with NO background in Sacred Music, to have the immediate connection of understanding its language. Ahhhhh, thanks to all those wonderful souls who changed my life that weekend!
  • Kathy
    Posts: 5,507
    I like to think in terms of the incremental steps that choirs need to move forward into truly sacred music.

    One of these incremental steps is fairly simple motets--something that a volunteer choir can sing well early in its development, before it can sing full scale polyphony. Something to build confidence and skill. I really like the work of Christoph Dalitz in this regard. I think we need more of that.
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  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,795
    I think those of us who use responsorial Psalms would agree that's a rather large lacuna.

    I had a harder time than I expected finding a Domine quinque talenta for last Sunday, Isaac being quite below his usual inspired level. Nobuaki Izawa has contributed quite a few motets to CPDL for SATB without divisi, many of them filling gaps in the 1970 Gradual. I was able to count on enough altos for Gallus' Domine quinque talenta à 5, but a 4-part setting in English could be welcome for funerals as well as OT 33 A. But in the style of Alex, please.
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  • Richard Rice just put out his book of SATB propers for the church year. I think that's a great niche. I have been in many church choirs who need just SATB, no divisi, a cappella, 2-3 minute pieces on sacred texts. Any longer and it becoms less frequently programmed...some churches get through offertory and communion quickly!

    The discipline of writing effective music, in one's own style, while maintaining only four parts, is a great way to clean up one's act.

    Consider even two- and three-part music.

    I will agree with trentonjconn that a church which does not know its own official songbook...its official ordinaries and propers...would be served well by focusing on reacquainting itself with those. And I think that newly composed music for the liturgy would be well served by "breathing the same air" as the native chant of the Church - as it used to be. How that exactly translates into a new composition is up to you!
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,086
    It's not the Catholic Church lacks music. It's what music is used in particular locations on the ground. In my experience over the years, what is most lacking is good, worthy settings of the Ordinary that the people who are willing to sing will, over time, come to know and sing well (even without any accompaniment) and, secondarily, responsorial psalmody. (There is actually considerable music already available, but it's not got the distribution oomph factor from major providers of worship aids - missalettes and hymnals - that are more interested in promoting their own stable of composers whose work is often at best serviceable but not much else - e.g., I am looking at you, Mass of Creation - and at worst is criminally banal - e.g., I am look at you, Mass of Christ the Savior.) Get those in *good* shape with the added support of celebrants singing the presidential orations at at least principal celebrations of the week and year, and the focus on what is sung at other points in the Mass recedes somewhat in salience. That focus has long been foregrounded because the music of the rest of the liturgy has not been up to snuff.
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 267
    The biggest need is for beautiful music. One of the things which a former director impressed on me was the need for what we claim to be doing to match up with what we are actually doing. When the celebrant says, "We join with all the choirs of heaven as they endlessly acclaim . . ." Does what follows actually sound like we are joining the heavenly choirs or does it sound like a Broadway show or worse, a bunch of hippies around a campfire? I would hope our music would give us all a foretaste of the music in the kingdom of heaven.

    As a secondary need, I would argue that insufficient attention is paid to alternatim. The Second Vatican Council clearly emphasized congregational participation. I do recognize that sometimes active participation can mean active listening. That said, I don't think that active listening all the time was what the fathers had in mind. Moreover, there would be significant pushback to requiring the congregation to remain silent during the entire ordinary. It would be great to have an entire repertoire of pieces that would alternate between chant which could be sung by congregations and harmony / polyphony which can be sung by choirs. I do know that there are some pieces out there, but there doesn't seem to be many.
  • The Church doesn't need any more music. It needs competent performers, and liturgies that can make proper use of the existing patrimony.

    Nonetheless. I need to write for the Mass. And increasingly, I try to look at what would be most useful for other people.
  • …with the added support of celebrants singing the presidential orations at at least principal celebrations of the week and year…

    The Church needs clerics who can confidently, competently, and consistently intone the sacred texts assigned to them. In a straight tone at minimum. Alas, too many of them act as if their role in this "greater than any other art" is partially or completely optional, when it is in fact a role of demonstrated/neglected leadership.

    Words set apart for worship ought to be expressed in a way set apart for worship.

    Merely speaking sacred words aloud keeps them earthbound. Intonation hits the ear "different". Exposure to consistent intonation will better inform current and would-be composers of sacred music (and their patrons) what their compositions ought to evoke.
  • smt
    Posts: 61
    I would appreciate more settings of the propers in the vernacular. I see that there are many approaches for English propers, some very close to gregorian melodies, some simplified, then settings for multiple voices etc. In Germany we have close to nothing. Hymns have completely substituted the propers. You won't hear them neither sung nor read by the priest very often. As much as I love the gregorian heritage I don't think it is a solution for many places. Several complete, simple but beautiful settings of the mass propers would be a blessing. Unfortunately I can't see many efforts to reach that. We have a rich and precious hymn tradition, but it makes people don't miss anything without the propers.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,806
    As much as I love the gregorian heritage I don't think it is a solution for many places.
    Why? I don’t see any logic in this. Please explain.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw rich_enough
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,078
    If the reason is anything like in many parishes in the United States, it's because some very vocal people in the pews will cry "participation" if a parish introduces chanted Gregorian antiphons. Catholics have been conditioned by decades of experience to expect to sing devotional songs at a mostly spoken Mass, and they have been taught that singing at entrance, offertory and Communion are important for participation. So if the people can't sing it immediately, if it's not catchy, if it doesn't move them emotionally, then there will be complaints. Pastors and music directors have to be firm against such complaints, or else no progress will be made.

    I generally agree with the opinions that the Church doesn't need any new music. There is ample repertoire for celebrating Mass well with music, at least in English and Latin. The church needs to conform the celebration of Mass to the rubrics better, starting with singing almost all of the Mass ordinary using the chants in the Roman Missal. When the people in the pews are chanting their proper parts from the ordinary, there are less likely to be complaints about not being able to participate in singing the propers.

  • For what it's worth, here are some things, in no particular order, that are OK with me.

    1. If the work I produce is not performed widely in the Catholic Church, or is only performed in the Ordinariate, or is only performed after I am under the ground;

    2. If people outside the Catholic Church sing my work in their churches, thus perhaps---perhaps---infusing more of the Faith than they know into unexpected places;

    3. If people say that the Catholic Church doesn't need any new music.


    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 267
    While I am a fan of singing the propers, there is an inherent tension in doing so. GIRM Para. 48 reads:

    48. This chant is sung alternately by the choir and the people or similarly by a cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the Dioceses of the United States of America, there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Missal or the antiphon with its Psalm from the Graduale Romanum, as set to music there or in another setting; (2) the antiphon and Psalm of the Graduale Simplex for the liturgical time; (3) a chant from another collection of Psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including Psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) another liturgical chant that is suited to the sacred action, the day, or the time of year, similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

    If we take order in the paragraph as expressing preference, the highest preference of the method of singing is given to singing the introit antiphonally between the choir and the people. Then the choice of what is sung is given to the Missal Antiphon which has no musical setting. The next choice is given to the introit from the Gradual Romanum as set to music there. But in my experience, the Gradual introit is often far beyond the capacity of most congregations to sing effectively. In fact, if the introit from the Gradual Romanum is to be sung, it is likely going to have to be sung by the choir alone. But that is the fourth choice.

    Perhaps this is another area for music to be composed.
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,086
    The tension exists more if one, and many seem to default to, focuses on the photo instead of the movie, as it were. That is, it would seem many placed choose of those choices and stick to that choice, esp. Choice (4) - so that the photo and the movie are more or less static. (I will omit likely reasons for that.) That's not required, nor does it even appear to be recommended. What if all the choices were actively considered deployable, dynamically, over time?
  • davido
    Posts: 940
    I think people read the GIRM rubrics as if they are inspired scripture, with detailed meaning to be teased out and understood.
    I think the reality is that something like paragraph 48. is a collection of guidelines put together by a committee that was largely making it up as they went along. It has to be read with a measure of common sense.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,772
    I can think of one area where we need new music. The Propers, some of the new feasts have novel texts from scripture that have not been used by the church before. These lack chant settings... In England some of the Proper feasts, do not appear to have music. We have looked and drawn a blank.

    If anyone would like to compose 'neo' gregorian chant for Latin texts that are Proper but have no music, I can provide a list.
  • On the topic of vernacular propers, approachable and simple chanty settings in the style of the Lumen Christi propers using the Ordinariate translations would be a very useful tool. It would bridge the gap between the St. Peter Gradual (all psalm toned) and the Palmer and Burgess. This is very niche though, I concede.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    On the one hand we need stability of texts, otherwise settings are evanescent. On the other hand the translations of the propers were, according to Inwood, deliberately altered from what the bishops conferences had approved to make them difficult to sing! And thus, one hopes, are likely to change.
    We should note that if McKinnon is correct in dating the "completion" of the propers to Sergius I (687-701) this is over three centuries after the dominance of Latin in the Roman liturgy was established, and that the antiphons do not use Jerome's Vulgate, comissioned by Damasus I (366-384), but to older translations. So perhaps it is unwise to hold your breath, or stop composing.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,806
    then there will be complaints
    who friggin cares... let the squeaky wheels begin! I always smiled largely, said nothing (because all they want is an argument and another reason to complain with a target on my back) and just continued on giving them meat and potatoes instead of milk and sugar. time to grow up!

    From an article on a website I read yesterday...
    For xxxxxxxx, the Second Vatican Council is the fons et origo of the Church of today and of the future. The Fathers adopted a new paradigm, that of a Church which has always been Catholic, but which has become global, freed from its coincidence with Europe. This had various consequences, such as the introduction of local languages into the liturgy and the legitimization of local theologies. The adjective "worldwide" is used to describe the Church, with an ambiguity similar to that of the adjective "ecumenical" to describe the Second Vatican Council, which was ecumenical because it was general and/or because it led to the triumph of rapprochement with the "separated brethren".


    I oil all squeaky wheels with truth... they either fall off, stop making noise or run me over.

    c'est la vie
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,806
    Nothing in the vernacular... that is why I stopped composing in the vernacular decades ago.

    My epitaph will read thus:

    All vernacular (music) will be abolished from the Roman Rite in due time.

    (or)

    I told you I was sick!

    (or)

    I have nothing more to say.
  • Francis - don't make plans to leave just yet. We need you. :-)
  • francis
    Posts: 10,806
    lol
  • Don9of11Don9of11
    Posts: 706
    A return to devotional hymns would be a good start. Hymns are a very efficacious way of teaching or passing on the Catholic truths and the catechism. Early hymn writers knew this and so their hymns were written to educate you in your Catholic faith.

    Secondly, a study of these hymns, the poetry, the meter, etc., should be of paramount importance to anyone who is serious about writing hymns.

    If you are looking for some modern sources to help you, try Anthony Esolen's Real Music or Father Rutler's Story of Hymns. There is also a wonderful Marian study avaiable through the University of Dayton Popular Marian Hymnsin Devotion and Liturgy, and finally the USCCB's Evaluating Hymn Lyrics
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen oldhymns
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    We need more opportunities to sing devotional hymns then, preferably without detracting from singing the texts supplied for Mass. This should be easy to achieve since in the USA alongside 24 thousand diocesan priests who can say one Mass a day (sometimes more) there are 18 thousand deacons who could preside at public recitation of the Office 2, 3, 5 opportunities a day, or at Benediction/Exposition, and less formal/liturgical devotions.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,772
    I have been asked for the texts missing music, they can be found in the following forum posts,
    Propers for the Polish Supplement I have updated the post with new items posted to gregobase recently.

    Chant needed for the local calendars for England I will post here

    I also have texts for St Maximilian Kolbe, I will also add these to the above discussion.
  • "But in my experience, the Gradual introit is often far beyond the capacity of most congregations to sing effectively."


    The congregation could sing the versicles of psalmody instead of the introit antiphon, and perhaps a refrain in the same mode using something like st. meinrad tones, example: - Choir: complete antiphon "ad te levavi...confundentur", - then choir sing refrain: "ad te levavi aninam meam" in latin or english (or other vernacular language) in a simple tone, - then people of congregation sing the refrain, - then all sing the verse (maybe first hemistich by the cantor) "vias tuas dómine..." in latin or english (or other vernacular language) - then all sing the refrain - then all sing a second verse (there is many verses wich could be sing accordingly with graduale and ordo cantus missae) - then all sing the refrain [...] the final of the chant could be either the refrain by all or the antiphon by choir.
  • Also it could be - Antiphon by choir, then - many versicles by all (either in latin or vernacular, either in the original gregorian tone or in another, simpler, of the same mode) - then gloria patri by all - then antiphon by choir.
  • In portuguese I'am composing refrains to sing alone with psalmody, or with the antiphon of the graduale. And versions in portuguese of the antiphon of graduale. Also a version of the antiphon in portuguese with a simple exegesis of the modal melodic structure of the antiphon.
    ad te levavi.pdf
    65K
    Populus Sion.pdf
    66K
    A-Vos-Elevo-A-Minha-Alma.mp3
    2M
  • Following off of what Lincoln is suggesting, there is a set by Fr. Columba Kelly (available through GIA, if memory serves) that supplies a full antiphon, a simple congregational refrain, and verses set to meinrad tones. I find them quite lovely in general.
  • davido
    Posts: 940
    Lincoln, along that vein, an interesting idea I have seen:
    The 1958 Lutheran Service Book and Hymnal has the Introit recited or intoned, with the congregation singing the Gloria patri, it being the only part of the Introit whose text is invariable.
  • At my ordinariate parish, the people sing the Gloria Patri of the introit with gusto. It's unusual, but I suppose I don't hate it.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,795
    the people sing the Gloria Patri of the introit

    I wonder if anyone's congregation has ever learned all 8 tones? Our 8:30 used to sing tone vii with a lot of gusto too, but I got mighty tired of psalm-toning the antiphon.
    Thanked by 1trentonjconn
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    Fr Columba Kelly's books of Introits and Communions are available from OCP.
  • Thank you, Hawkins! I stand corrected. That set is one of the few things I'm willing to give money for with OCP.
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • I'm always interested in new choral settings of texts by saints and of the hundreds of sequences that are no longer used in the liturgy. The latter especially is among the most beautiful and profound poetry in all Christianity, and basically no one today knows any of it.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,460
    Indeed an abundance of hymns added to the Mass in the Middle Ages. But of course they are not part of the Gregorian treasury.
    The Nidaros repertory of sequences from the Nidaros ordo to the Nidaros missal is the topic of a book edited by Kruckenberg & Haug (2006). The Nidaros ordinary, with additions, presented 118 sequences and is particularly rich (Kruckenberg 2006, 7)
    see KRUCKENBERG, Lori & Andreas HAUG. 2006. The Sequences of Nidaros : a Nordic Repertory & Its European Context. Senter for middelalderstudier: Skrifter nr. 20. Trondheim: Tapir.
    Critical edition of the missal available here :- https://www.bokselskap.no/wp-content/themes/bokselskap2/tekster/pdf/missale.pdf
    Thanked by 1hilluminar
  • Wow. Just saw all these. So it looks like writing new Propers settings or digging out the old treasures are the most supported ways to go overall. Gratias!