Propers without chant settings
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    These feasts found in Diocesan calendars from 1962 do not appear to have Gregorian chant settings. We have not found a full supplement to the Graduale Romanum for England and Wales other than the English Benedictine supplement 1926.

    Die 11 Iulii B. HADRIANI FORTESCUE MARTYRIS III classis EDIT Have now found this Mass see link!
    Antiphona ad Introitum
    Sap. 10, 13
    Vénditum iustum non derelíquit Dóminus, sed a peccatóribus liberávit eum; et in vínculis non derelíquit illum, donec afférret illi sceptrum regni. Ps. 36, 18 Novit Dóminus dies immaculatórum: et heréditas eórum in ætérnum erit. V. Glória Patri.

    Graduale Ps. 78, 1
    Deus, venérunt gentes in hereditátem tuam, polluérunt templum sanctum tuum: posuérunt Ierúsalem in pomórum custódiam. V. Ibid., v. 3 Effudérunt sánguinem servórum tuórum tamquam aquam, et non erat qui sepelíret.

    Allelúia, allelúia. V. Ps. 36, 39 et 40 Salus autem iustórum a Dómino, et salvábit eos, quia speravérunt in eo. Allelúia.

    Antiphona ad Offertorium
    Sap. 10, 12 et 14
    Certámen forte dedit illi ut vínceret. Dedit illi claritátem ætérnam.

    Antiphona ad Communionem
    Ioann. 15, 13
    Maiórem hac dilectiónem nemo habet, ut ánimam suam ponat quis pro amícis suis.

    Die 17 Iulii APPARITIONIS SACRÆ IMAGINIS SANCTÆ MARIÆ IN PORTICU III classis
    Antiphona ad Introitum
    Cant. 6, 9
    Quæ est ista quæ progréditur quasi auróra consúrgens, pulchra ut luna, elécta ut sol, terríbilis ut castrórum ácies ordináta? Ps. 18, 2 Cæli enárrant glóriam Dei, et ópera mánuum eius annúntiat firmaméntum. V. Glória Patri.

    Graduale Ps. 44, 13, 15 et 16
    Vultum tuum deprecabúntur omnes dívites plebis, adducéntur Regi Vírgines post eam, próximæ eius adducéntur tibi in lætítia et exsultatióne. V. Iudith 13, 25 Quia hódie nomen tuum ita magnificávit Dóminus, ut non recédat laus tua de ore hóminum.

    Allelúia, allelúia. V. Esther 15, 3 Et tu ínvoca Dóminum, et lóquere regi pro nobis, et líbera nos de morte. Allelúia.

    In Missis votivis Tempore Paschali dicitur:
    Allelúia, allelúia. V. Num. 17,8 Virga Iesse flóruit: Virgo Deum et hóminem génuit. Pacem Deus réddidit, in se reconcílians ima summis.

    Allelúia. V. Luc. 1, 28 Ave, María, grátia plena, Dóminus tecum: benedícta tu in muliéribus. Allelúia.

    Post Septuagesimam, omissis Allelúia et V. sequénti, dicitur
    Tractus Gaude, María Virgo, cunctas hǽreses sola interemísti. V. Quæ Gabriélis Archángeli dictis credidísti. V. Dum Virgo Deum et hóminem genuísti: et post partum Virgo invioláta permansísti. V. Dei Génetrix, intercéde pro nobis.

    Antiphona ad Offertorium
    Ierem. 18, 20
    Recordáre, Virgo Mater, in conspéctu Dómini, ut loquáris pro nobis bona, et ut avértat indignatiónem suam a nobis.

    Antiphona ad Communionem
    Regína mundi digníssima, María Virgo perpétua, intercéde pro nostra pace et salúte, quæ genuísti Christum Dóminum Salvatórem ómnium.

    More to come...
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 330
    Are there any thoughts you might want a composer to bear in mind whilst attempting to set these in an entirely Gregorian style?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    Die 1 Septembris B. HUGONIS MORE MARTYRIS III classis
    Antiphona ad Introitum
    Ps. 26, 10
    Pater meus et mater mea dereliquérunt me: Dóminus autem assúmpsit me. Ps. ibid., 1 Dóminus illuminátio mea et salus mea, quem timébo? V. Glória Patri.

    Graduale Ps. 111, 1-2
    Beátus vir qui timet Dóminum: in mandátis eius cupit nimis. V. Potens in terra erit semen eius: generátio rectórum benedicétur.

    Allelúia, allelúia. V. Ps. 20, 4 Posuísti, Dómine, super caput eius corónam de lápide pretióso. Allelúia.

    Antiphona ad OffertoriumNum. 18, 20
    Ego pars et heréditas tua in médio filiórum Israël.

    Antiphona ad Communionem
    Apoc. 3, 21
    Qui vícerit, dabo ei sedére in throno meo. N.B. See L.U. 1485.

    St Hilda 17th November
    Alleluia, Alleluia. V AEmulor enim vos Dei aemulatione. Despondi enim vos uni viro virginem casta exhibiere Christo. Alleluia.
    See here with a slight change to texts I have also found another setting of the variant text.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    St. Maximilian Kolbe
    INT. Ps. 138, 17
    Veníte, benedícti Patris mei, dicit Dóminus. Amen, dico vobis: quámdiu fecístis uni de his frátribus meis mínimus, mihi fecístis. (T.P. Allelúia, allelúia.) Ps. 63, 2 Exáudi, Deus oratiónem meam, cum déprecor: a timóre inimíci éripe ánimam meam.
    https://gregobase.selapa.net/chant.php?id=8301

    GRAD. Ps. 115, 13.15
    Cálicem salutáris accípiam, et nomen Dómini invocábo. V. Pretiósa in comspéctu Dómini mors sanctórum ejus.

    ALL. John 12, 25
    Allelúia, allelúia. V. Qui odit ánimam suam in hoc mundo, in vitam æternam custódit team. Allelúia.

    TRACT. Ps. 20, 3-4
    See Liber pg. 1131. last verse has minor change. V. Posuísti in cápite jus coronam...

    ALL. Ps. 115, 7 15
    Allelúia, allelúia. V. O Dómine, quia ego servus tuus, et fílius ancíllæ tuæ: dirupísti víncula mea, tibi sacrificábo hóstiam laudis.
    Allelúia. Pretiósa in conspéctu Dómini mors sanctorum ejus. Allelúia. (See G.R. [19])

    OFF. Ps. 20, 4-5
    Posuísti, Dómine, in cápite ejus corónam de lápide pretióso: vitam pétiit a te, et tribuísti ei longitúdinem diérum in sǽculum sǽculi. (allelúia.) (See G.R. [14])

    COMM. John 115, 13
    Majores hac dilectiónem nemo habet, ut ánimam suam ponta quis pro amícis, dicid Dóminus.
    Thanked by 1Paul F. Ford
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    @m_r_taylor
    1. Some of the texts have similar chants with only small changes to the text. I think these could be modified, to create the new music.
    2. The Neo-Gregorian settings for St Joseph the Worker etc. used ancient chants with the new words grafted on. Some of these attempts were successful, others not so. This could be a basis for creating new chant.
    3. Each Proper has a familiar style, Introits are different to Communions, it would be good to try to follow this.
    4. Some chants such as the Mode II Alleluia's the mode VIII and mode II Tracts, all follow patterns. For those chants that are used more than once with different texts could also be a basis.
    5. It really needs to sound like Gregorian chant...
    Thanked by 2OMagnumMysterium Paul F. Ford
  • rich_enough
    Posts: 1,051
    I take it you had something like this in mind? New Gregorian style proper chants for the feast of St. Louis Marie de Montfort were recently composed by Mr. David Hughes. See this article from the New Liturgical Movement. The feast was added to the calendar in 1947, but proper chants were never written.

    Mr. Hughes is currently organist and choirmaster at the ICKSP parish in Waterbury, Connecticut, and a member of the CMAA board. Perhaps he could be approached about writing proper chants for the feasts listed above. I find them quite convincing.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    @rich_enough
    Thanks they do sound like chant... I notice they are not on gregobase?

    I had been asked to sort out music for St. Maximilian Kolbe's feast. They have it as an external Solemnity in Zurich each year. The choir sings the chants from the common, or psalm tones, but would love chant settings.

    Ideally when new Propers are designed they should use texts and music, that has already been in use. We have plenty of music that is not used in the Missale Romanum 1962, and that should be brought back into use.

    For those novel texts ideally the Church should have a competition to write chants, but of course this is not a priority for those in charge. We have all been called by the various church legislation on chant to make Gregorian chant take pride of place. One way of doing it is to start writing neo-gregorian settings. Setting that could be still in use in 1000 years time!

    I am interested in what the talented composers here could produce!
    Thanked by 1OMagnumMysterium
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,798
    A new task,

    Has anyone the Proper for St Philomena, I just have found the texts, and have been asked to find the chants,

    INT. Fortitudo mea, et laus mea
    GRAD. Dilexisti (Graduale Romanum, Solesmes, 1961, p. [52])
    ALL. Adducentur Regi (Graduale Romanum, Solesmes, 1961, p. [61])
    OFF. Vota Mea Domino
    COM. Suavis Dominus universis,
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium CHGiffen MatthewRoth
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 285
    So these aren't "real" answers, but I see a few cheaty solutions which may serve as a start, if nobody finds an authoritative source. Looks like the Gradual and Alleluia won't be an issue.

    For the Offertory, there is a matins responsory and an Alleluia verse both by that name, and both these compositions are neumatic/moderately melismatic as you would expect with most offertories. Technically they are the wrong genre, but if you tidy it up right I doubt even an uninformed schola member will necessarily sniff out the discrepancy.
    image
    image
    For the Communion, the Office antiphon of the same name could work, Communions are often more syllabic anyway. Although if your community regularly does first Vespers of Sundays throughout the year they may recognize it and wonder what's up.
    image
    These are just quick ideas off the cuff, but I'm quite interested in anything pertaining to St. Philomena, so I may revisit this if nobody finds the real answer. It wouldn't be hard to arrange something with the common formulae from each genre X mode.
    an--suavis_dominus--solesmes_1961.png
    1296 x 446 - 42K
    al--vota_mea--solesmes.png
    1296 x 1359 - 119K
    re--vota_mea_domino_(resp.)--gregofacsimil.png
    1290 x 1373 - 67K
    Thanked by 3Chrism CHGiffen tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    as mentioned above David Hughes ha done that. He's now in Littleton, Colorado.

    For the introit, that's a short text if is identical to the same text found in the second half of the introit of Saint Joan of Arc.. the antiphons of that name are also just that same text.

    The offertory probably works best from the responsory presuming that it's the same text as the one intended by the requester. The jubilus is too obvious and requires more work to fix imho.

    But I'm curious about how one would go about finding propers for votive Masses since none are in that list.

    Worcester F160 has a tract with that text, of the introit, in case we are also interested in votive Masses after Septuagesima; if it's the same as the one for Saint John Capistrano on March 28 in the Roman rite, well, it may need a word adjusted. The Alleluias work just fine.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 429
    I’m surprised there isn’t a solution from the Sacred Congregation of Rites (or Ecclesia Dei) to this issue in the context of ‘62…

    I’d expect something along the lines of either psalm-toning the propers as produced, creating one’s own polyphonic settings or having recourse to the commons in plainchant.

    The idea of contrafacta and partial rewrites of existing chants is exciting, but best left to Solesmes.

    Obviously in the missal of Paul VI there’s the ‘alius cantus aptus’ solution…
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 640
    This brings up a relevant question. I've labored under the (perhaps very flawed?) understanding for years that, in the context of the '62, the propers either have to be the full, authentic chants, or they have to be psalm-toned (polyphonic settings notwithstanding). This, presumably, would make using a magnificat antiphon or somesuch with the same text illicit, no? Am I making up this rubric?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 285
    My understanding (just going off of possibly flawed memory) is that the Mass of St. Philomena is normally from the commons (Loquebar), but by 1962 it wasn't even on the calendar at all, so the propers above would be special propers only for certain places where she is particularly honored (unless I'm wrong), so it makes it a special case anyway, and not applicable to most of the universal Church. But to trentonjconn's (fair) question, I have no answer.
    Thanked by 2trentonjconn tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    I’m surprised there isn’t a solution from the Sacred Congregation of Rites (or Ecclesia Dei) to this issue in the context of ‘62…


    The propers would have been approved in textual form. It was up to Solesmes to do the chant and that sometimes didn’t happen. PCED wasn’t competent to do that either. They and certainly their successors at the DDW would have been like “whatever, we’re not musicians”.

    Solesmes will not do this now. They mostly reject the entire neo-Gregorian project although there are good examples. Some are not so good, but the texts are nicer than those of the commons (Thérèse is popular enough and indeed powerful enough as an intercessor to warrant a proper Mass; Pius XI knew that!)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Palestrina
    Posts: 429
    Surely the question must have arisen as to what one would have done before 1962 (especially in religious communities, monasteries etc) where the texts had been approved but the chant had not been provided?
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium tomjaw CHGiffen
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    Low Mass (obviously?)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • OMagnumMysterium
    Posts: 285
    If the feast/saint is so important to the community that they care about using special propers rather than the normal ones assigned, they'd probably wanted to have sung Mass. Especially if they already had conventual Solemn Mass each day anyway.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • Chrism
    Posts: 876
    For reference, DMS nos. 21c, 57, 58, 59.

    For the SRC's linked in 58, see Link to PDF - for no. 4260, see electronic p. 132, printed p. 117.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    If the feast/saint is so important to the community that they care about using special propers rather than the normal ones assigned, they'd probably wanted to have sung Mass. Especially if they already had conventual Solemn Mass each day anyway.


    Yes but then you would ask why they can’t be satisfied with the commons for the time being. Or why they never reached out to Solesmes or sought approval. It’s perfectly possible that they did the former and Solesmes never answered or finished. But I imagine that there’s a reason why we don’t have editions of the Liber with propers inserted for just a single diocese or congregation — they never asked.
  • igneusigneus
    Posts: 395
    With all due respect to everything the Solesmes abbey has done in the field of chant research: don't let a single French abbey own the future development of chant repertory for the whole church.

    A community or particular church needs a chant piece, it has someone compose it - like it has always been. (Cf. e.g. the numerous independent settings of the office of St. John Nepomuk)
    Thanked by 3OMagnumMysterium tomjaw CHGiffen
  • francis
    Posts: 10,882
    With all due respect to everything the Solesmes abbey has done in the field of chant research: don't let a single French abbey own the future development of chant repertory for the whole church.
    hahahahahaha
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,440
    Well, regardless, they won’t compose them now anyway, not for propers at least. The antiphonal is more problematic since they unrealistically hold to that principle even for chants where there have always been rather obvious examples of new texts applied to what is clearly a formula.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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