Adding hymns to the liturgy
  • VeritasEtCaritas
    Posts: 10
    When is it permissible to add hymns to the liturgy? Are there any rules governing singing extra texts that aren't mentioned in the rubrics?

    On the one hand, someone had to add the first hymns to the Divine Office, and the sequences to the Mass. And there seems to be a long tradition of singing motets at offertory (and communion?). And Laszlo Dobszay speaks of adding an extra hymn around the homily.

    But on the other hand you can't just go messing with the liturgy.

    You can sing both an antiphon and a hymn/motet, so maybe you're allowed to add hymns at times of procession, to fill time?

    I've heard arguments that you can sing the Dies Irae in the OF, as it's traditional and wasn't explicitly banned, so maybe tradition is an allowance?

    Or maybe you can only add hymns with the permission of the Bishop.

    Once I have an answer to the general question, there are three questions I wish to apply the rule to:
    - Could one sing the OF LOTH but add an extra hymn in the location where the hymn would have been in the old version of the Office? If I were to help start Vespers in my parish, I suspect I would have to use the OF version, but the location of the hymn is my second biggest problem. (The biggest problem is the allocation of psalms, but there is leeway for choosing different psalms when the congregation is involved.)
    - Could one hold a "9 lessons and carols" service, that doubles as Matins, by taking Matins and adding 9 hymns?
    - BONUS: Can we sing extra sequences that are not currently in the Missal/Graduale?
  • davido
    Posts: 960
    While this forum will argue the legal intricacies of what you suggest ad nauseam, it really boils down to what your priest will allow.
    For instance, I have witnessed:
    - the Dies Irae sung as the sequence at NO All Souls’ Day masses, and once at a NO funeral (both at the priest’s request)
    - the sequence “To Joachim and Anne” sung as a sequence on the patronal solemnity of a St Anne’s parish (setting comes from the Summit Choirbook)
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,121
    " . . . aren't mentioned in the rubrics?"

    Of which liturgical book(s)? The answer(s) is/are likely to be specific to the relevant book(s).
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,920
    I think Davido might be on to something. I have sung the Dies Iræ at all souls, as well as a funeral (both N.O.) but then I also asked about restoring a few of the other sequences for high feasts & solemnities and was resolutely told 'no, we can't do that; it's not part of the rite anymore'.

    The Post-communion meditation hymn trend is totally made up, as far as I can tell. And certainly a hymn before or after a homily is out of left-field too, although I have sympathy for the former to some degree.

    As for the bishop, many of the documents (including the GIRM) all mention "at the discretion of the local ordinary" or other similar language. These days, they all just go with the tidal wave flow and permit just about anything. Even the two bishops who have issued well-known pastoral letters about this take a somewhat gentle approach, in that they strongly encourage but do not mandate propers, which means they only strongly encourage suppressing hymnody in favor of chant.

    I do think it is dangerous, though, to become eager to add/subtract/change rites. The missal doesn't really indicate much hymnody, save for Holy Week, fwiw.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,121
    Re the Dies Irae in the context of Masses celebrated according to the post-conciliar missal:

    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19438/dies-irae-as-a-sequence-on-all-souls-on-the-novus-ordo/p1
  • btodorovich87
    Posts: 101
    The Post-communion meditation hymn trend is totally made up, as far as I can tell.


    This one is actually legit... GIRM 88: "When the distribution of Communion is over, if appropriate, the Priest and faithful pray quietly for some time. If desired, a Psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the whole congregation."
    Thanked by 4Andrew_Malton CHGiffen a_f_hawkins LauraKaz
  • Chaswjd
    Posts: 272
    During the mass, hymns have come to fill spaces where the liturgy allows for "alius cantus aptus."

    The question of the use of hymns in the liturgy of the hours is a bit trickier. Unlike the Sunday obligation which must be "in a Catholic rite," Catholics who are not clergy or religious have no obligation to celebrate the liturgy of the hours, correctly or otherwise. Therefore, I think there is somewhat greater freedom to celebrate something merely patterned after the liturgy of the hours for the laity than a celebration of the mass which must follow the GIRM. I, myself, have recently suggested that rather than Lessons and Carols, Catholics could celebrate the Office of the Readings with carols following the readings as meditations. Perhaps I was wrong to suggest it. I will leave that for others.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    certainly a hymn before or after a homily is out of left-field too
    This is a German tradition, the old Prose compositions in the style of a Sequence were sung here.
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen Paul F. Ford
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,920
    Brad, I stand corrected!
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,920
    But Tom, is this actually Catholic? Or is it absorbed from relevant, dominant Protestant tradition?
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 292
    certainly a hymn before or after a homily is out of left-field too
    Many sources mention a custom of singing the Veni Creator before the sermon. In a large church where the pulpit is some distance from the altar and the celebrant removes his chasuble before preaching, there is surely time for several stanzas of a hymn without delaying the liturgy at all. It may not be a custom we're familiar with, but it's a bit rash to say it's out of left field.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,920
    As I mentioned, I stand corrected.

    I also thought we were discussing the novus ordo, not the old rite in big old churches. Insofar as the NO is concerned, it’s only the last 10 years that I’ve encountered a post communion hymn. That’s just my personal experience. So it did seem out of left field to me when it seemed to be a fad at a bunch of churches seemingly over night.

    One might also argue that singing a hymn during a procession to a pulpit is not really analogous to just sitting and singing a hymn for the sake of singing a hymn. One is a natural outgrowth of a liturgical action, while the other feels like a barnacle glommed on to the rite.
  • FSSPmusic
    Posts: 292
    As it so happens, a Google search for "sermon hymn" turned up this thread from last year on the "pulpit hymn":
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/discussion/19901/what-is-a-pulpit-hymn/
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,791
    @ServiamScores
    is this actually Catholic? Or is it absorbed from relevant, dominant Protestant tradition?

    The Proses date from before the ReDeformation. I have seen a number of manuscripts with these Proses after the Sequence /Alleluia and before the Offertory. They appear to be semi Liturgical.

    In parts of Switzerland they sing part of the Veni Creator / Veni Sancte Spiritus in German before the Sermon. EF of course.
  • VeritasEtCaritas
    Posts: 10
    Thanks everyone for the replies.

    Regarding what the priest allows, our priest is quite hands-off. And I'm mainly interested in getting a general idea of what things should be, rather than going by a particular priest.

    I do think it is dangerous, though, to become eager to add/subtract/change rites.

    I mostly agree. I think we have culturally lost the idea of liturgy as something received from Tradition. But I exist in a OF context, and I am torn where there is tension between going by the letter of the (OF) law the (OF) rubrics and following the (EF) traditions of centuries. [Edits in italics]

    Catholics who are not clergy or religious have no obligation to celebrate the liturgy of the hours, correctly or otherwise. Therefore, I think there is somewhat greater freedom to celebrate something merely patterned after the liturgy of the hours for the laity

    As a layman, I have been dabbling with the Tridentine Office in my private life. But if I were to hold Vespers at my parish, I would like things to be done properly; both as an example to laity who have not been exposed to the office before, and to attract the parish priest. Likewise, there is talk in the parish of holding a Lessons and Carols service, and I am interested in seeing just how close to Matins I can convince people to be.
  • trentonjconn
    Posts: 635
    Regardless of what you do, I would caution against seeing the rubrics as suggestions rather than liturgical law. Disregard for what the Church asks us to do through the rubrics she sets forth is a large part of what has led us into the liturgical swamp that most Catholics currently inhabit.
    Thanked by 2VeritasEtCaritas ServiamScores
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,121
    Personally, I don't get trying to make a Lessons & Carols service over as if it were Matins. In the form that is a popular hook to attract people, it's not Matins, but at most a devotional or paraliturgical service of Scripture, prayers and music. Let Matins be Matins.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen tomjaw Anna_Bendiksen
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,479
    I would caution against seeing the rubrics as suggestions rather than liturgical law.
    I agree, but one needs to track down all the relevant OF rubrics, which can be difficult for music particularly. ¿How much of Musicam sacram still applies?
    Thanked by 3tomjaw trentonjconn VeritasEtCaritas
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