Obeying our Ordinaries
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979
    I understand this much, and it has more to do with being wise as serpents instead of being right or wrong. Any fool could easily see that Francis is not Benedict, is not cast from the same mold, and doesn't have much knowledge or regard for "tradition" when it comes to liturgy. The wise would have realized this, celebrated the TLM, and kept their mouths shut. Getting on a righteous high horse, condemning the current rite, and drawing attention from Rome is worse than stupid. As long as Francis is in office, the loud-mouths will pay dearly for it. Given cardinal appointments, the next pope could be the same or worse. Attention is not always a good thing to have. The squeaky wheel sometimes gets the grease, but sometimes it gets replaced.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Oftentiimes, a distorted definition of “magisterium” gets thrown around on the forum, cloaked in an air of intimidation and an overbearing legalist perspective that divides from the very essence of what the fullness of the Magisterium is actually composed.

    The problem exists in what has come to be known as "Magisterialism" which exempts critical aspects of the unadulterated and authentic Magisterium. That part of the Magisterium that is rejected is the "intrinsic and extrinsic magisterium."

    This is why I was driving at a definition earlier on in the thread, because I wanted to point out that a critical part of the true magisterium has been entirely rejected by the majority of the Catholic population.

    This is fully explained in this article by Fr. Ripperger written in 2001.

    Here are excerpts that clue us into the root of the problem:

    Magisterialism is a fixation on the teachings that pertain only to the current Magisterium. Since extrinsic tradition has been subverted and since the Vatican tends to promulgate documents exhibiting a lack of concern regarding some previous magisterial acts, many have begun ignoring the previous magisterial acts and now listen only to the current Magisterium.

    This problem is exacerbated by our current historical conditions. As the theological community began to unravel before, during and after Vatican II, those who considered themselves orthodox were those who were obedient and intellectually submissive to the Magisterium, since those who dissented were not orthodox. Therefore the standard of orthodoxy was shifted from Scripture, intrinsic tradition (of which the Magisterium is a part) and extrinsic tradition (which includes magisterial acts of the past, such as Pius IX’s Syllabus of Errors), to a psychological state in which only the current Magisterium is followed.

    Neoconservatives have fallen into this way of thinking. The only standard by which they judge orthodoxy is whether or not one follows the current Magisterium. As a general rule, traditionalists tend to be orthodox in the sense that they are obedient to the current Magisterium, even though they disagree about matters of discipline and have some reservations about certain aspects of current magisterial teachings that seem to contradict the previous Magisterium (e.g., the role of the ecumenical movement). Traditionalists tend to take not just the current Magisterium as their norm but also Scripture, intrinsic tradition, extrinsic tradition and the current Magisterium as the principles of judgment of correct Catholic thinking. This is what distinguishes traditionalists and neoconservatives

    Inevitably, this magisterialism has led to a form of positivism. Since there are no principles of judgment other than the current Magisterium, whatever the current Magisterium says is always what is “orthodox.” In other words, psychologically the neoconservatives have been left in a position in which the extrinsic and intrinsic tradition are no longer included in the norms of judging whether something is orthodox or not. As a result, whatever comes out of the Vatican, regardless of its authoritative weight, is to be held, even if it contradicts what was taught with comparable authority in the past. Since non-infallible ordinary acts of the Magisterium can be erroneous, this leaves one in a precarious situation if one takes as true only what the current Magisterium says. While we are required to give religious assent even to the non-infallible teachings of the Church, what are we to do when a magisterial document contradicts other current or previous teachings and one does not have any more authoritative weight than the other? It is too simplistic merely to say that we are to follow the current teaching. What would happen if in a period of crisis, like our own, a non-infallible ordinary magisterial teaching contradicted what was in fact the truth? If one part of the Magisterium contradicts another, both being at the same level, which is to believed?

    Unfortunately, what has happened is that many neoconservatives have acted as if non-infallible ordinary magisterial teachings (such as, for instance, the role of inculturation in the liturgy as stated in the Catechism of the Catholic Church) are, in fact, infallible when the current Magisterium promulgates them. This is a positivist mentality.


    The article in full:

    http://www.latinmassmagazine.com/articles/articles_2001_sp_ripperger.html

    (an interesting footnote)
    6 The heresy of Modernism has occurred in four phases. The first was the initial phase, which began around 1832, when it was called liberalism, until the beginning of the First Vatican Council in 1869. The second phase was the intelligentsia phase in which it began to infect the Catholic intelligentsia more thoroughly. This occurred from 1870 to 1907, at which time Pope St. Pius X formally condemned Modernism. Then from 1907 until about 1955 to 1960, the underground phase occurred, in which the Modernist teachings were propagated by some of the intelligentsia in the seminaries and Catholic universities, though quietly. Then, in the latter part of the 1950s, a superficial phase began in which the intellectual energy was exhausted and what was left was the practical application of the vacuous teachings of Modernism, which occurred during the period in which the Second Vatican Council was in session and persists until this date. Vatican II was the catalyst or opportunity seized by the past and current superficial intellectuals who teach things contrary to the teachings of the Church.
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  • The man is a legend, and one of the clearest thinkers of our age. (And a Thomist, go figure.)
    Thanked by 2tomjaw francis
  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    If you do read and make it to the end of the entire article on magisterialism (see link above), follow it with this one which is kind of like a nightcap to the other.

    excerpt

    Tyconius next asserts what is arguably the most arresting detail in his entire commentary. He declares that the “discessio” of the end times will take place in a way that completely inverts the conventional understanding of the term.

    Faithful Christians usually assume that the “falling away” – the “separation,” the “departure” – will be instigated by droves of people “leaving” the Church, a massive exodus of unbelievers. The definition of “apostasy” in the Catechism of the Catholic Church – “a total repudiation of the Christian faith” – plainly conveys such an idea.

    For Tyconius, however, the opposite is true. Tyconius understands that the great “falling away” of the end times will not be caused by unfaithful people leaving the Bride of Christ, but rather by the Bride of Christ pulling away from those within her who are unfaithful. In other words, for Tyconius, it is not the infidels who will “fall away” but rather the true believers, who will withdraw from the evil within the Church. A paradoxical reversal indeed.

    For Tyconius, it is the new Israel who must depart on her new Exodus. The true Church herself will effect the great apostasy as a way of salvation[38] from her enemies. In a real sense, the true Church will force the apostasy into the light, for the body of the devil, present in the false brothers inhabiting the Church, is already, and always has been, apostate. That fact has merely been concealed.


    https://www.marcotosatti.com/2022/09/08/ratzinger-tyconius-and-fatima-an-interpretive-key-for-the-end-times/
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  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,084
    Less Kwasniewski, more "Where Peter Is":
    https://wherepeteris.com/trad-resistance-is-old-fashioned-dissent/

    Suddenly traditionalist and conservative Catholic figures are employing the same tactics as outspoken liberal dissenters from earlier generations. They make clear that their reconsideration of these questions is due to their disapproval of Pope Francis’s teachings. Holmes begins his article, “Pope Francis’ many controversial statements have brought with them a new interest in how Catholics should respond to non-infallible teachings of the Magisterium.” Eric Sammons begins the podcast with the words, “The controversy surrounding Pope Francis have led many Catholics to rethink the papacy itself.” The unfortunate and sad reality is that their obedience to the Magisterium of the Church is contingent on what they personally think about what the pope teaches. That’s neither submission nor respect.

    Yet unlike figures such as Curran – who had no problem admitting to dissenting views – they push back hard against the notion that they oppose the official teachings of the Church. Such intellectual dishonesty can’t possibly end well.

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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    I think a word needs to be clarified.

    The term "Magisterium" refers to the teaching office of the Church; that is, her function of presenting the Church's doctrine. This function is entrusted, of course, to the Pope and the bishops. We can read about how the Church is divinely protected from error in Lumen gentium, which treats the Church's charism of infallibility.

    This realm of action needs to be distinguished from the role of the Pope and the bishops in governing the Church. Governing is a different role from teaching, and the administrative acts of the Pope and the bishops do not enjoy any promise of divine protection against error.

    So "Magisterium" relates to doctrine. The proper attitude of Catholics to the Church's doctrine is to adhere to it, to hold it. When people talk instead about "obeying" doctrine, already this is a sign that some confusion is present. One obeys commands, and one adheres to doctrines.

    I don't place much confidence in Catholic writers who don't seem to know the difference between these two things.
  • Mark,

    When present instructions directly contract what has been authoritatively instructed previously (please, before you pounce, read really carefully), confusion on the part of the loyal subject is quite to be expected.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    CGZ I read "instructions directly contract" really carefully, and tentatively suggest that is not what you intended to write.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,824
    Mark

    trads do not “rethink the papacy.” That is a ruse to continue hammering on an erroneous view of absolute obedience or else one is in dissent. The pope is still the pope until he goes against the magisterium himself and then come into play the degrees of error and consequence. Then kicks in the intrinsic and extrinsic, canon law, etc. don’t even get me started on canon law of legal and illegal resignation to boot.
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  • Hawkins,

    Thank you.

    the word there should have been contradict
  • This is why I just laugh whenever someone implies that I’m somehow “disobedient” when I merely hold to what has always previously been taught/done.

    I am obedient… to something of a substantially higher order than the man who currently occupies the throne.
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Which, fwiw, is what the original Protestants also thought.
    Thanked by 2a_f_hawkins CharlesW
  • My understanding was that they thought they were beholden to something higher than the institution of the papacy itself, not a particular pope who they believed was potentially in error. That seems substantially different.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Since Eric Sammons is mentioned above in a quotation, a new article of his may be helpful for understanding his words about rethinking the papacy.

    He outlines four positions on the papacy that are voiced within the Catholic community; he identifies them as "hyperpapalists", sedevacantists, liberals, and "restorationists".

    https://www.crisismagazine.com/2022/the-multiple-religions-coexisting-within-the-catholic-church
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    And, of course, Sammons ignores the vast bulk of Catholic who don't voice positions on the papacy but carry on. The bar bell curve of the Internet vs the bell curve of non-virtual living.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    You say that as though it were a defect.

    But it's not; he wrote an essay about ideas, not about individuals or factions, the committed and the uninvolved, or about who is aware of the dispute and who is not.

    If you want someone to write about the passive majority, maybe you can take up that topic for an essay of your own.

    In the meantime, I recommended his essay because readers here may find it clarifying to see some description of the ideas involved.

    Thanked by 3Liam tomjaw francis
  • Which, fwiw, is what the original Protestants also thought.

    This seems a fair retort, at first blush. The difference is that Protestants rejected formal teaching that had been established and accepted by all of Christendom for centuries. I’m rejecting the novelties that contravene said corpus of tradition and teaching. (For example, the purported sudden about face on the death penalty.)
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  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    Chonak

    While I agree with your description of his essay as a surface matter, my point and characterization stands (I had previously read the essay). An essay about these ideas without engaging with the reality of what you call a "passive majority" is of seriously limited salience. The Internet as a medium invites plenteous reified discussion.
  • Liam
    Posts: 5,092
    The difference is that Protestants rejected formal teaching that had been established and accepted by all of Christendom for centuries. I’m rejecting the novelties that contravene said corpus of tradition and teaching.


    Counter example: Not indulgences, which were the immediate trigger of the Lutheran branch of schism. The practice of indulgences of that time was neither ancient nor accepted by all of Christendom (neither Eastern nor Oriental Christianity, for that matter). (And Protestants of divers sorts claimed a variety of teaching and practice of the Roman church were neither ancient nor universal.)
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  • NihilNominisNihilNominis
    Posts: 1,021
    image

    Protestants of divers sorts.

    My flippancy aside... even Robert Bellarmine, the great controversialist of the Counter-reformation, foresaw possibly difficult futures for the papacy in De Romano Pontifice, and gave theological space for practical action by the wider Church to correct it.
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  • Chonak,

    Is it licit, possibly licit, absolutely illicit or even mortally sinful to obey commands which encourage or enflesh non-adherence to doctrine?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    and doesn't have much knowledge or regard for "tradition" when it comes to liturgy


    Oh, Charles, were that his ONLY lacuna of knowledge or regard!!
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,232
    John Henry Cdl. Newman also had thoughts on uberhyperpapalism--in brief, that it is wrong. The Pope is not infallible on many, many, matters, and as Chonak brought out, infallibility certainly does NOT include matters of discipline.

    Can he demand obedience in mere matters of discipline? Canonically, yes. Morally? Not always.
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  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    Few, if any, of the commands in Pope Francis' liturgical documents are directed to us lay faithful.
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  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 3,467
    Pope Francis' catecheses on the Mass can found in a sequence of General Audiences beginning on November 8 2017. These are directed at the lay faithful, though including critical remarks about bishops taking selfies during celebrations with him! https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/audiences/2017.index.html
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,979

    Oh, Charles, were that his ONLY lacuna of knowledge or regard!!


    He has an intense dislike for theologians. Understandable since he doesn't seem to have much knowledge there, either.
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