Urgent Prayers
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I guess I should clarify that’s what I meant: did they announce something. They might not want to put it on their website but it’s still public. What I was looking for was an end to all this speculation. And it’s exactly because I think whoever leaked this did a great deal of harm.

    So the answer to my question is “no, they did not make any kind of announcement”—-which was the prediction—and so I think confident statements about what His Eminence is doing should cease.

    Kenneth
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 548
    CGZ

    I like the priests who do have their own cathedrals, or their own churches, or their own hospitals or schools or orphanages to tend. The ones who have nothing to tend but a computer, blogging half-truths and stirring the pot don’t seem to contribute very much….

    I looked up the livestreams of the Institute’s Masses yesterday and nothing was said about this.
    Thanked by 2MarkB PaxMelodious
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    CGZ was reporting something I had heard elsewhere as well. Whoever started it was the problem.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    In fairness to Fr Z, he didn't leak the news and was very explicitly annoyed, even to the point of offering his apologies to the ICRSP… and he's in Rome, which is not exactly his diocese, but it's close enough for anyone who cares, considering that it's between him and his bishop.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,933
    From what I’ve heard from a few sources that should know: apparently parishioners at the shrine were informed that the situation calls for “all-day Adoration and fervent belief that God will prevail”.

    Another friend in Chicago pointed out that the Shrine has been investing more and more Indiana, even so far as holding the Triduum in the Gary apostolate. (Whether or not the Chicago church is suitable at this point to host the Triduum, is unclear to me. So take it for what it’s worth.)
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Kenneth,

    I appreciate that you didn't pour burning coals on my head.

    Gamba,

    Fr. Zuhlsdorf's work is not my work, nor mine his. In one thing, we have a common point, though, and that is that we've asked for prayers in this very trying situation. It's not a secret that Blase Cardinal Cupich favors those who want to harm the Church and weaken the faith, and strives to harm those who want only to be faithful. I do not wish him ill, only a conversion of heart.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    The Shrine is barely able to hold Sunday and feast day Mass, much less the Triduum, in the Holy Family Chapel. On some occasions like the Triduum where it was not practical to do things in that chapel or in the previous temporary chapel in the basement, and before that in the old gym of their neighbors at First Presbyterian, they've borrowed the nearest Catholic church, though this past year they returned to the Presbyterian church's facilities.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Dear Chris:

    You know those banners that appear about minding your tone of voice? Those appeared because of me. I used to regularly participate, but I quite innocently asked the question of what solos a cantor should know. It turns out the answer was "Something for weddings; something for funerals; something for absolute emergencies." I was however subjected to some pretty serious abuse even for asking such a question. I protested mightily to the administrator, who started putting those banners up, and I stopped participating. That was in 2013.

    When I first heard the news, I might have posted what you did and then gone "oops." However, I will add that I think abusive comments directed towards our Cardinal here in DC are not helpful at all. He does not seem to be a mean man, and he is confronted with a difficult choice. Prayers, as you noted, are exactly the appropriate thing.

    Blessings,

    Kenneth
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    They are, so we should indeed pray for the bishops in question, but, although related insofar as they consider the future of the traditional Latin liturgy, the DC and Chicago situations are otherwise apples and oranges.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    However, I will add that I think abusive comments directed towards our Cardinal here in DC are not helpful at all. He does not seem to be a mean man, and he is confronted with a difficult choice.

    The kind of vitriol that pops up here, uncomfortably close in tone and purpose to that which emanates from the American political apparatus, is why I question my participation here in occasion.
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen Elmar LauraKaz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Kenneth, Schoenbergian,

    Did I miss some comment about Abp Gregory? He's the Cardinal in DC, but I've scanned these comments in this thread and don't find anything derogatory about him. What did I miss?
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    When our shepherds our lacking in (christian) charity, what example does it set the sheep?
    When our shepherds lack in holiness, what example does it set for the sheep?
    When our shepherds behave like our politicians, are we surprised that the vitriol is the same?
    @MatthewRoth suggests we need to pray for our bishops, some of them appear to be on a wide road, rather than the narrow difficult path.
    @amindthatsuits everyday we all have difficult choices, we can choose to be good or choose to be bad. Hiding behind the letter of the law is not a good option, as it may be lacking in charity.
    N.B. When our neighbour errs we are called to correct in in private, if he continues to err we must correct him in public as the sin may become our own. The saints have told us that this duty applies to all christians no matter how lowly.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I was referring in general, and perhaps I should have clarified. I did see a sideswipe at him in some discussion on this site, and I do think I saw something in this thread. It may not have used his name. Perhaps its all a mush in my head.

    You will find a fair amount of criticism among the usual suspects, and I simply don't think it helps. He certainly heard a lot from his priests and from the faithful. As one priest put it, "If you feel like blogging, don't."

    But in any case, I meant as part of this whole difficult process.

    I will say that the Traditionalists in DC have in general "optimam partem elegerunt, quae non auferetur ab illos," if my Latin doesn't fail me. That is, they are diligently going on with their good work and praying.

    Peace,Kenneth
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Schönbergian, I could not agree more. From the time when I participated regularly, I see that some of the most acidic and ill-tempered have disappeared. I hope that means they reflected and reordered their lives. I also pretty much stopped participating in online forums because I find myself brooding and returning fire.

    Peace,

    Kenneth
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,216
    [Just a note from your friendly administrator:

    A user above mentioned the little reminders that appear from time to time between comments, and he seemed tp be under the impression that one of them was based on his "tone". I assure you that it wasn't: they are completely randomized, so no two users viewing the same page can expect to see the same little exhortations. And if you view the same page twice in a row, the messages will change.

    Hope this takes away any misunderstanding! --admin]

    Thanked by 6ServiamScores tomjaw Chris Garton-Zavesky Elmar LauraKaz francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    You know, you don't have to continue to fund those shepherds, or sheep-fleecers as I would call some of them. Nothing gets their attention like taking away their piggy bank.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 2,782
    @CharlesW I know priests that have told us how to donate to the parish in a way that is not taxed by the diocese... The money seems to be important to "them", I wonder what will happen when the money stops flowing?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,980
    Good question, tomjaw. I was told that if I donated to the building fund, the diocese didn't get any of that. Then along came a spendthrift priest trying to build a monument to himself, so that went out the window. Now, I find charities that I know are doing good work and give money directly to those in genuine need.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen tomjaw Elmar LauraKaz
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    I'll ask again:
    Kenneth, Schoenbergian,

    Did I miss some comment about Abp Gregory? He's the Cardinal in DC, but I've scanned these comments in this thread and don't find anything derogatory about him. What did I miss?
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Chris, please see my answer of July 20. In any case, since that was posted,there have been many indiscrete comments about His Eminence all over the place, but at this point we don't need to worry how that will affect his decision-making.

    Kenneth
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Kenneth,

    I think I follow your train of thought.

    I took the comments I think you've assumed were about Cardinal Gregory and assumed they were describing Cardinal Cupich, instead, but that's because I was behind the news cycle: I didn't know Cardinal Gregory was also trying to stamp out the fire.

    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Chris:

    I have to admit that I actually don't know what I was referring to in specific. It was all one discussion at that point, and maybe--maybe--I was just saying that I didn't think comments in any venue were going to help. In fact, one pastor said, as I quoted, "if you feel like blogging, don't." But now things are settled. And I don't remember what I was referring to. You can lay it down to my just having had my 65th.

    I have seen two different phone snaps of a make-shift sign pasted on the front of the Shrine in Chicago, yet rather oddly see nothing even vaguely official. If anyone sees anything, I always like to see the original source.

    Peace.

    Kenneth
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    There was no bulletin. I am the one who ordinarily urges waiting for the canons, but make of that what you will (the Shrine has published its bulletin in advance of the last several weekeends.)
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    Which is very good advice when it's rumor, and I advocate the same thing, but a sign on the door (if it is not fake) is now a public event, so I was wondering if there was any kind of back up to it.

    Peace,

    Kenneth
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    And here we have it, alas.

    https://www.institute-christ-king.org/chicago-home
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    Does that mean that the general public cannot go there for Mass?
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    BHCordova,

    No, it doesn't mean that. Anyone who happens to walk in at the time when Mass starts is not going to be escorted out of the Church as a violator of the "Private" Mass directive. If you know when Father Q usually prays his Mass on his day off, you can show up, intentionally, and not violate the directive. Since these clerics now have 7 days off every week, that arrangement could grow up organically, through no subterfuge at all.

    Please, everyone, continue to pray for a conversion of heart of Cardinal Cupich.
    Thanked by 2LauraKaz tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    This is true, except that the people in charge don't care about the law, and canonical niceties will lead to a Roman decree.
  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 860
    I've heard a lot of talk about this issue. For instance, could they give "members only" Mass for an association? I think this is something a canon lawyer should address, but I don't think there is one listening in on this.

    I think, practically, prayers are what is needed.

    Kenneth
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Matthew, Kenneth,

    I have not spoken with any of the Canons in Chicago, but I'm sure that they don't want to do anything which might harm the faithful attached to the shrine. Prayers, therefore, are called for, so that their efforts to safeguard the faithful will not bring further punishment on these good people.

    If you're trying, Kenneth, to make "private" mean "registered members of the Shrine congregation", you'll have to ask a canon lawyer. On the other hand, how telling is it that the era of dialogue and accompaniment, announced in advance, can lead to such brutality as what you describe, and much worse.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 2,311
    I agree that prayers are called for, of course, for the reasons which you mentioned. In any case, their website has since been updated with the information contained on the sign on the door repeated.

    You used to have to have a card in some dioceses in order to attend the indult Mass, especially under the regime of Quattuor abhinc annos, but I find that questionable canonically… but again, the people in charge don't care about the law, and canonical niceties will lead to a Roman decree.
    Thanked by 2Salieri tomjaw
  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    canonical niceties will lead to a Roman decree.

    Exactly. Sometimes doing something is more damaging than doing "nothing".
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
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