Kid-friendly liturgy
  • PaxMelodious
    Posts: 425
    Both spinach and chicken tenders are indeed awfully tasty.

    But if you give them to a child whose digestive system or taste buds are too immature for them, you will at least give the child a bad association with them as "yucky stuff", and possible you will cause the child long-lasting organ damage. There is a time in every child's life for milk, for mashed vegetables, for baby oats, for grapes without seeds and apples without cores.


    It's also worth remembering that music which children learn in school for pedagogical purposes is often not fit for liturgy - because it was intended to teach the children, rather than to worship God. This doesn't make it bad or wrong, it just makes it not right for liturgy.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Pax,

    An eloquent message. The sensible question to ask, therefore, is "At what age, and in what manner, can/should/must a responsible parent/pastor introduce grown up music to children?
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    My kids all ate chicken and spinach at the age of three. (Maybe earlier) However, good music and beauty are perceived by children still in eutero. I played plenty of Bach for my kids before their birth and they are better because of it. Also, being a practicing Catholic all my life they also were exposed to excellence in liturgy right from cradle age... There was no twinkle twinkle little star liturgies for their little ears and hearts and a developing sense of wonder.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    {As we can tell, Francis was a perfect father}
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    It's also worth remembering that music which children learn in school for pedagogical purposes is often not fit for liturgy - because it was intended to teach the children, rather than to worship God. This doesn't make it bad or wrong, it just makes it not right for liturgy.
    The likes of Kodály or Bartók would undoubtedly find more place on the liturgy than most of the banal garbage foisted on North American Catholics.
    Thanked by 3ServiamScores Chris Garton-Zavesky CHGiffen
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    True, but the point still stands.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    As for the idea that genuine sacred music might somehow be detrimental to children who are too young to comprehend it, I'd say it is much better for the children to be washed in appropriate liturgical culture and [sadly] reject it later in life, than to never be offered the beauty to begin with, or to be merely fed the constant and paltry diet of "lowest common denominator" music.

    Frankly, we often underestimate children. My own children have taught me that they are extraordinarily more perceptive than I tend to give them credit for. They understand a LOT even if they don't know how to articulate it well or they don't understand it completely.

    By way of example:

    I had a mother come to me a few weeks after Christmas and tell me that she thought I would be happy to hear that they were "relieved an eager" to return home to our parish after their christmastide travels. They had found the experience of going to Mass at other churches, sadly, disquieting. She said that the ethos of prayer to which they were accustomed was lacking, and the primary driver behind this was the poorly done (and poorly chosen) music [which fostered a completely different atmosphere]. The mother told me that her children had remarked to her in the car after Mass that they thought the music was terrible and they didn't like it, and it didn't feel very holy. Make of that what you will... I think we can draw some reasonable conclusions about the type of music to which they were exposed....

    And the only reason they were able to articulate this was because they had a point of reference for what appropriate liturgical music should sound like. They had imbibed a different [unspoken] spirit of the liturgy at our parish where we emphasize chanting, traditional polyphonic motets, and the like. They were never "taught" as such; they had simply absorbed it over the course of time. And the contrast, as was explained to me by their mother, was most apparent to them. The 5 children are 13 and under.

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  • SalieriSalieri
    Posts: 3,177
    Oddly, I can't imagine a group of Russian Orthodox Choirmasters arguing about whether Russian chant (or even Tchaikovsky or Rachmaninoff) is appropriate or not for the children in the congregation; surely, they just do the music that is integral to the Divine Liturgy, or other settings of the integral texts, and just do liturgy.

    We should do the same thing: just do the integral music of the Roman Rite (Gregorian chant) together with that music which has been "canonized" (i.e., Palestrina, et al.) and which sets the integral texts, and just do liturgy, without any gimmicks, which includes warping the sacred liturgy with bad imitations of pop music---of any era. (Extra-liturgical devotions, with which I include extended periods of Eucharistic adoration, are a different matter; I'm talking about the Mass and Office.)
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  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    Salieri, I suspect you’re right about that. In a certain sense, it is very legitimate to pose the question: who cares about what the children want? The liturgy is our offering to God, after all, not the children.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    The sources of "bad" music in church are improperly formed and educated priests, and musicians. Let's face it, many of our top tier musicians have to work in Protestant churches just to make a living.
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    do you mean that the behavior you've described (and seen described) is unique to the SSPX schools?


    Not at all. There are plenty of other examples, even in the traditional sphere - St. Gregory's in Elmhurst comes to mind. And this isn't to say that there aren't good priests and educators associated with the Society. I just find it an issue that they tend to idolize figures in the realm of education who would be viewed in other circles as lacking charity.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    many of our top tier musicians have to work in Protestant churches just to make a living.
    well, I would say that it is better NOT to support a protestant church (as a Catholic musician) if that is the only way one can 'make a living'. Find and do something else. Don't compromise (or scandalise) the Faith by doing such.
  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    I once saw an interview with cardinal Sarah, and a mother asked him about her daughter, who was taking lessons, subbing at Protestant churches when they requested her help. He was ADAMANT that such a thing was NOT acceptable. One man’s opinion, and you can make of that what you will, but he was very forceful and resolute that such an action implies a certain Christian unity which, in fact, doesn’t exist.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    In the words of St. Pecunious the semi-Jesuitical, "Take the money and run."
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    Take the money and run? Hmmm... I think one of Jesus’s disciples did that
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    We never found out what happened to that money, did we? Somebody got it.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    We never found out what happened to that money, did we? Somebody got it.


    Judas threw the bag of thirty pieces back at the Pharisees and then went out and hanged himself. The Jews own it.

  • ServiamScores
    Posts: 2,721
    Then they bought a field to bury untouchables and foreigners.
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  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    I used to think music was some high-minded vocation and the angels sang when I played or directed. I suspect the angels have their hands full with other things. One of the reasons I was ready to retire was that music became a job, even one that wasn't always fun any more. Time to let someone else have the pieces of silver, few though they were.
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  • jcr
    Posts: 132
    Re the comment above about working in a Protestant church. My wife and I took a job in such a place as a favor to a relative. It causes all kinds of conflicts between what you know to be right and what you must do . Some of these are subtle, some not so much. We left after a year Without going into any detail, it is not something that any Catholic should do.
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  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    well, I would say that it is better NOT to support a protestant church (as a Catholic musician) if that is the only way one can 'make a living'. Find and do something else. Don't compromise (or scandalise) the Faith by doing such.

    If it weren't for non-Catholic individuals and groups, much of our musical heritage would either be forgotten entirely or still languishing in obscurity. If we followed your logic, not only would authentically Catholic music be heard less and less, but Catholic musicians would have no opportunity to even study or experience their heritage unless they were fortunate enough to live near a well-formed parish.
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    non sequiter to the point we are making...
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Schoenbergian,

    Many of those non-Catholic persons, perhaps, use this music outside of its proper milieu? When Catholics attend non-Catholic services, they run the very real risk (not always coming to fruition) that they lose their faith. "Ecumenism" which works only one way -- ie., that the traditional teaching and practice of the Church is always downplayed, even when beautiful music is sung-- isn't ecumenism.

    Thanked by 4tomjaw LauraKaz ServiamScores francis
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,934
    Given that 98% of Catholics wouldn't recognize Catholic music if it bit them...
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  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    @CharlesW

    "One of the reasons I was ready to retire was that music became a job, even one that wasn't always fun any more."

    I couldn't agree with you more on this point. I had a go at directing for a little more than a year, and while the actual participation part in the liturgy was never an issue, it was the work and wrangling of participants that exhausted me constantly. So I decided to give that up completely and stick to helping the choir when I was available, and composition. In the end, I'm better off for it.

    Thanked by 2tomjaw CharlesW
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    When Catholics attend non-Catholic services, they run the very real risk (not always coming to fruition) that they lose their faith. "Ecumenism" which works only one way -- ie., that the traditional teaching and practice of the Church is always downplayed, even when beautiful music is sung-- isn't ecumenism.

    If your faith is so shaky that attending another denomination's worship (not even involving the Real Presence) is enough to make you seriously question it, there are larger issues than ecumenism.

    And again, the skillset required to do justice to Catholic music cannot be conjured out of thin air. In many areas, working outside of the Church is the only way to develop those skills, and in today's climate with a lack of Catholic musicians compared to every other denomination, I don't believe we should be gatekeeping like that.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Frankly, we often underestimate children.


    Tru dat. One reason is that chilluns don't always tell you what they know unless you ask them directly. They observe and remember; they don't think it's important to discuss.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    I suggest that the Catholic Christian life should be taught as significantly different life than the typical American life.


    You join Fr. George Rutler in that desire, not to mention the Man Who said that 'they will revile you....'

    Pretty good company.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    the skillset required to do justice to Catholic music cannot be conjured out of thin air.


    Indeed! I'm glad we agree on this.
    In many areas, working outside of the Church is the only way to develop those skills,

    Shame on those areas, and on the Catholic parishes and institutions of higher learning which, seeking ecumenism or an end to light persecution, created, nurtured or refused to bring this situation to an end! Choir schools should not be rare. Low Mass should be rare, but between here and the proper justice for Catholic music, there is a question: sing more and do it badly on the way to improving or sing less unless one can reach the proper standard.
    a lack of Catholic musicians compared to every other denomination
    Those who promoted the spread of Protestant music in Catholic worship, and "modern" culture [now several decades out of date, but still surviving] forced serious musicians who were Catholic to sing a canticle to the Lord in a foreign land. How is this something we should promote?
    If your faith is so shaky that attending another denomination's worship (not even involving the Real Presence) is enough to make you seriously question it, there are larger issues than ecumenism.

    and yet, the Church discourages mixed marriages. The question isn't merely one of "attending". We are told by the sound magisterial teachings of several popes that we should not pray with the heathen. Judas Maccabeus comes to mind. Overturning the tables in the Temple.
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063

    Shame on those areas, and on the Catholic parishes and institutions of higher learning which, seeking ecumenism or an end to light persecution, created, nurtured or refused to bring this situation to an end! Choir schools should not be rare. Low Mass should be rare, but between here and the proper justice for Catholic music, there is a question: sing more and do it badly on the way to improving or sing less unless one can reach the proper standard. Those who promoted the spread of Protestant music in Catholic worship, and "modern" culture [now several decades out of date, but still surviving] forced serious musicians who were Catholic to sing a canticle to the Lord in a foreign land. How is this something we should promote?

    I don't believe we should "promote" it, but we should recognize reality for what it is instead of postulating a perfect world that doesn't exist. Asking Catholic musicians to essentially abandon their craft in these situations out of fear of the rest of the world is exactly what made Catholics in North America so irrelevant in the public sphere by 1950, and that was not through any lack of ability.
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  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    abandon their craft
    more like "abandon their faith"
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    exactly what made Catholics in North America so irrelevant in the public sphere by 1950


    Bp. Fulton Sheen's television evangelism ran from 1950-1956. John F Kennedy was elected President in 1959. There are FIVE Catholic justices sitting on SCOTUS (I include Thomas, who left RC but not really.)

    Could you explain your remark?
  • Schönbergian
    Posts: 1,063
    How about the fact that there were sincerely held fears that JFK would simply do the bidding of the Pope, and that he was the only Catholic president until Joe Biden?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    That does not comport with your "1950" timeline and doesn't address SCOTUS, nor +Sheen, nor the notable number of highly visible people in D.C. who swam the Tiber during the period from 1980-2000, such as Robert Bork, "Crossfire" co-host Robert Novak, Republican Sen. Sam Brownback of Kansas, conservative book publisher Alfred Regnery, economist and commentator Larry Kudlow, and one-time New York gubernatorial candidate Lewis Lehrman. See: https://www.beliefnet.com/faiths/catholic/2003/11/converting-capitol-hill.aspx

    I'm being a bit hard on you because you're on the right track but using the wrong ammo.
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,945
    I mean, a lot of those people were indistinguishable from other Americans in certain ways. Originalism may have largely been invented as a way to turn Roe v. Wade, but its holders frequently hold other commitments incompatible with Catholic teaching and, quite frankly, natural law. They embrace an American(-ist) vision of religious freedom as a principle, instead of as a way to defend the church's liberty and proclaim the Gospel exclusive to everything else, which is partially why we are in the mess that we are in now.

    I'd suggest that Kennedy's speech to Baptist ministers was the nail in the coffin. The worst part is that the pope was thought to be preparing an intervention on racism, and Kennedy signaled that he wouldn't act except of his own accord, which meant hemming and hawing until it became untenable. But throughout the 1950s and through Kennedy's first term, the Legion of Decency and the Production Code still meant something. The MPAA system developed after Kennedy.

    Anyway, I have a very high view of the church's influence and of her institutions up until JFK. I have a somewhat lesser view of the clergy and, to some extent, of practice. People thinking that VII embraced Americanism didn't help for those who didn't leave in despair (or with joy…).

    tl;dr it's complicated.
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  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Matthew,

    Thank you for the splash of cold water about Americans Americanists and Originalists. I'm pleased to be reading such stuff here.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • francis
    Posts: 10,668
    and don't forget this...

    https://tradistae.com/2019/07/04/americanism/

    which you can read in its entirety here:

    https://www.papalencyclicals.net/leo13/l13teste.htm

    Americanism, unfortunately, weakened the True Kingdom and the True Social Justice of Our Lord Jesus Christ in the Catholic Faith which all of humanity is supposed to be a part... simply, "religious freedom" is rebellion from the kingship of Christ... anything that professes to be Christian apart from the Catholic faith is (in very forgiving language), incomplete.
    Thanked by 2MatthewRoth tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    When we were explaining the situation (because Grandma doesn't go to Mass with us) decades ago, we used the idea of a "pretend" church for my then three year old.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw LauraKaz
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    At my Catholic school:
    Solfege begins at 4 and 5. Children learn the Pater Noster and all the Marian antiphons at 5 and 6. Missa de Angelis at 6 along with Mass 17. The Gloria usually waits until 2nd grade as the text is a little harder. Hymns in Latin at 6 and 7 and also in English. Favorite hymns of 2nd graders right now: Hail Thee Festival Day and At the Lamb's High Feast.
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  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    Schonbergian.........Fr George Rutler had it

    ...The Light of the world has been put on the Cross and the prophesy ("...lifted up...") is revealed. The Cross is the lampstand and gives light to the dark-scoured world.

    By corollary, this explains the psychology of the tendency of people to take down Crosses from their walls when they are guilty. In fainthearted Catholic institutions this has been done frequently.......in exchange for Caesar's coin, sometimes from loss of faith masking itself as pluralism, often as indifferentism pretending to "emphasize the Resurrection" as though Christ rose without wounds..........[T]he Prince of Darkness knows what humans in the obscurity of sin learn tragically: to darken society you do not turn off a light switch, you turn off the Cross.


    It is not that Catholics were no longer prominent in society after 1950, 1960, or even 2020. It is that Catholics 'turned off the Cross' by accepting the sectarian/materialist credo of American (Western) society.

    Not to point solely at Bishops, but there was no mention of a Bishop's "palace" in the New Testament, was there?
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    The one in Galveston? Why would that be in the Bible?
  • LauraKaz
    Posts: 72
    Kevin, how much time do the kids have in music class per week?
  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    One hour for 1st and 2nd. 40 minutes for younger ones. Per week.
    Thanked by 1LauraKaz
  • Elmar
    Posts: 500
    Frankly, we often underestimate children.
    Tru dat. One reason is that chilluns don't always tell you what they know unless you ask them directly. They observe and remember; they don't think it's important to discuss.
    I wholehartedly agree with everything but the last sentence; taking as counter-exemples little Elmar 50 years ago, my daughters (especially the eldest) and several of my nephews en niece

    Returning to the original topic, good liturgical music and a good homily inspire adulds and children alike.
    Im my experience, the main difference is that in the opposite case, adults tend to sleep away (or stay away finally) while children rather become obviously distracted and noisy.
    When my youngest (now teenage) daughter comments on the homily that it lasted 14:20, then for sure I can summarize anything I remember in less than a minute...
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