• The Divine Office has fallen into such disuse that many if not most have never heard Office hymns. This is sad.


    Couldn't agree more. Public celebration of the Divine Office (Sunday Vespers comes most readily to mind) is a once-fairly-prevalent custom which needs to return.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    (I took out the "autocorrect" distraction.)
  • canadashcanadash
    Posts: 1,501
    oooooooohhhh...
    This has become quite the thread!

    There was no P+W music that night.
    It was a Mass and Adoration I will not soon forget, but it is better not to write about it.

    Let's just say that organ music, even simple (but GOOD) organ music can focus people and lead them to prayer. And in this, I believe even more firmly.
    Thanked by 1Andrew_Malton
  • Doing P&W music during adoration on a retreat was a turning point for me in my journey to Trad-dom. I was in a P&W band that played for Mass and we were asked to play on the retreat put on for the Confirmandi that year.

    Well we sang songs about God, literally in front of God. But every time we finished a song, those in attendance turned around (away from Jesus) and applauded for us.

    This struck me as very odd and entirely backwards. It made me so uncomfortable. Here we were drawing people away from the One they were supposed to be moving towards. I was raised in a relatively modern parish that used P&W on Sunday nights but they also spliced in chant here and there. I knew enough to know this was wrong.

    I don’t think I had found Latin Mass yet but when I did it was something that finally made sense. From that point on, as time went on, the P&W music became more and more burdensome on my interior life. I’m not super offended by it on its own but I will never do that for Mass again.
  • Well we sang songs about God, literally in front of God. But every time we finished a song, those in attendance turned around (away from Jesus) and applauded for us.

    This struck me as very odd and entirely backwards. It made me so uncomfortable. Here we were drawing people away from the One they were supposed to be moving towards. I was raised in a relatively modern parish that used P&W on Sunday nights but they also spliced in chant here and there. I knew enough to know this was wrong.


    I agree that this is wrong. Such behavior should never occur. It saddens my heart to read about this.

    Thankfully the congregation I currently serve never applauds. I believe very strongly that congregations should not applaud liturgical musicians.

    To the extent that such applause is representative of a segment of praise and worship culture, I am opposed to that strain of things. I have never experienced applause at adoration and hope to keep it that way, so at least to my life experience, that is highly outside the norm of praise and worship culture.

    I did once serve as an accompianist in a Breaking Bread congregation that would applaud at the end of Mass. That wasn't great.
  • Is what John describes, a feature or a bug? Is it the normal expression of so-called Praise and Worship, or is it present only when things have gone wrong?
  • Is what John describes, a feature or a bug? Is it the normal expression of so-called Praise and Worship, or is it present only when things have gone wrong?


    It's a bug. None of the major institutional movements associated with praise and worship (Steubenville, Lifeteen, etc) would ever allow for applause *during adoration* this is highly outside of cultural norms of anyone that is doing praise and worship professionally and competently.

    The only way for this to occur is if you transplant praise and worship into some existing culture that doesn't take the reality of what's happening in adoration seriously. That is, if you do praise and worship unprofessionally and incompetently, all bets are off. For example, at the Breaking Bread parish I once served at, switching the music from BB to praise and worship wouldn't make them stop applauding absent additional formation from the priests.
    Thanked by 1a_f_hawkins
  • Maybe it is a bug, but I can’t see that happening with music more traditionally minded and in tune with Catholic tradition.
  • I used to play for a church where the organ console was down on the ground and people would come up to me after (and sometimes during) my postlude to thank me and it always made me cringe. I'm glad they enjoyed it, but I wasn't there for their praise. I have been clapped to on a number of occasions (in church) and always want to scream. (The singular exception being during actual concerts, but in that case I hope the tabernacle is empty.)
    Thanked by 1StimsonInRehab
  • Steubenville, Lifeteen, etc


    I know there are pockets of Catholic thought and practice to be found in the vicinity of both of these, but neither one is known for either.

    (Now, I'll retreat to my bunker and await disapprobation from all sides.)
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Every church needs to have this inscription written above their choir, whether loft or stall:

    Omnes gentes, plaudite manibus - extra ecclesiam

    The greatest compliment that could be paid to a church musician isn't clapping or cheering "yay" (actually happened to my choir after singing Stanford's "Mag and Nunc" for Evensong; it was exasperating) - the greatest compliment is seeing someone, sitting or kneeling in the pew, just listening. It's then when you know that, if not actively aiding contemplation, your music has created an atmosphere conducive to their meditation.
  • your music has created an atmosphere conducive to their meditation.

    This is one of the reasons I've pushed such a chant-heavy agenda at our church. While not all of the parishioners are fond of it, I have had a number of visitors find me after Mass and say things like, "I've never head chant at church before! It was so lovely! I really felt like I could pray..." or "Mass felt so calm; it was really peaceful. You music really helped." etc. There's a number of permutations of this same comment that I've received in three years and they are all 'straight from the mouth of babes' type comments. IE- innocent non-musicians making very profound observations.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,164
    My biggest problem with Praise & Worship music is that it is not centered on God. The main thing missing is the worship part. Worship is us speaking to God, not God speaking to us. 'Holy God We Praise Your Name' is us speaking to God. It is uplifting, it is solemn, it draws us closer to God. The Praise & Worship music I've heard makes you feel good, is not solemn, draws me inward. The praise part seems to be praising us, not God.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    For a real example to consider and evaluate, this is the most recent release from OCP in the P&W genre, or what it considers to be P&W. The "artist" is a guy whom OCP is really, really pushing hard trying to make him their in-house Matt Maher:

    https://youtu.be/blIbwkWC30Y

    The song's piano accompaniment and melodic rhythm mimic some of Matt Maher's more popular songs: simple, repetitive, pulsating piano/keyboard accompaniment consisting of 3-4 chords played using inversions that require little change in fingering from one chord to the next as a foundation over which a melodic line is sung. The melody often has two iterations: a regular version to begin with, and an almost identical version that adds some flourishes using higher notes for dramatic effect as the song builds.

    This song's musical style could be in a Disney movie. Lyrics could easily be substituted that would be about the main character's introspective yearning for adventure and meaningfulness while living a mundane, dreary life. Think "Moana" singing about leaving the island in "How Far I'll Go".

    https://youtu.be/cPAbx5kgCJo

    And that's a big problem with the P&W genre: its very strong resemblance to the musical style of secular music, especially musical theater.

    That's why P&W in many circumstances would not be a good choice for music at Mass. Under some pastoral circumstances its use could be justified, but I think only as a temporary concession while the barge is steered in a different direction.

    As religious entertainment or for devotional purposes, P&W music can be used advantageously.
  • a temporary concession while the barge is steered in a different direction.


    Camel's nose, meet tent. Tent, meet camel's nose.
  • For a real example to consider and evaluate, this is the most recent release from OCP in the P&W genre, or what it considers to be P&W. The "artist" is a guy whom OCP is really, really pushing hard trying to make him their in-house Matt Maher:

    I, for one, loved the smoke machines. Really made me feel like the Spirit was wafting about the room.


    That's why P&W in many circumstances would not be a good choice for music at Mass. Under some pastoral circumstances its use could be justified, but I think only as a temporary concession while the barge is steered in a different direction.

    I guess I'm curious what situation could be so dire that this style of music would be not only an improvement, but somehow a gateway to more traditional music. Considering how far it is from traditional music, I genuinely cannot imagine how this bridges such an imaginary "pastoral" chasm.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    I think in a parish where P&W music already has a history of being used at Mass, it ought to be maintained as a concession while being slowly retired. You can't suddenly eliminate the music that people know and love at Mass without alienating and upsetting a significant number of people.

    In real life, in real parishes, parishioners have expectations for music at Mass that have been formed by years or even decades of prior (mal)practice. If people's liturgical spirituality relies on P&W music because that's what they've predominantly experienced at Mass, I think it would be pastorally unwise, perhaps even counterproductive, to take that away from them cold turkey.

    I would not support introducing P&W at Mass in a parish where it wasn't already being used.

    I would not support using it at Masses at youth conventions, although that is unfortunately the standard practice because conference organizers can easily use such music to manipulate a large group of youth into a collective emotional high or tearful introspection, which is primarily what large-scale Catholic youth events are about: generating short-lived emotional responses and confusing that with a religious experience. Let us not forget too that publishers like OCP have a monetary interest in having their new P&W music promoted and used at large-scale youth events, which is why Masses at such events are often "headlined" by the P&W artists that the publishers want to promote, and they perform their newest music at Mass or their classic "hits". What those Masses end up being, then, are showcases for OCP's music and talent. That's not what Mass is supposed to be.
  • it ought to be maintained as a concession while being slowly retired.


    Before long, it becomes immemorial tradition. Stare decisis, anyone?

    You can't suddenly eliminate the music that people know and love at Mass without alienating and upsetting a significant number of people.


    Archbishop Bugnini, call your office! Papa Bergolio, call the Cardinals!
    Thanked by 1ServiamScores
  • francis
    Posts: 10,816
    In real life, in real parishes, parishioners have expectations for music at Mass that have been formed by years or even decades of prior (mal)practice. If people's liturgical spirituality relies on P&W music because that's what they've predominantly experienced at Mass, I think it would be pastorally unwise, perhaps even counterproductive, to take that away from them cold turkey.
    This is the worst “pastoral” approach that leads most perfectly to boiling a frog.
  • Mark has a point about the cold turkey. It’s hard for some people to change, especially when they don’t know there’s anything wrong with what they’ve been doing, so changing feels almost like a personal insult. But Francis, you’re right about the boiling pot; the difference is, by the time we get to this point, the pot has already boiled.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    But Francis, you’re right about the boiling pot; the difference is, by the time we get to this point, the pot has already boiled.


    Long before this point the music director will have been fired to restore some measure of peace in the parish. It takes years to change the music in a parish unless you have a strong pastor who is backing you. Even then, the pastor may be transferred before you accomplish much.
    Thanked by 1MarkB
  • Even then, the pastor may be transferred before you accomplish much.


    Bingo bingo bingo. The culture of constant reassignment for priests Needs. To. Stop. Having priests move every three to five years is like getting a new stepfather. Priests stop being fathers to their parish and become administrators, nothing more.
  • Agreed. Just when you’ve finally acclimated to each other and really start to feel deep-seated affection that can only come with time, is precisely when they move. (Of course, this is sometimes a blessing, too, when you can shuffle the bad ones out sooner rather than later…) but in the end, there is never any long-term (read, decade or more) stability to anything. If I had a nickle for every time I heard a sacristan say, “Fr. So-and-so wants xxx, but Fr. ______ always used to have us do xxxx instead. Now we have Fr. ______ visiting for a funeral on Wednesday but he wants xxxxxx which we’ve never even done before…” etc.
  • The optionality in the OF has contributed to the Mass being highly personalized from priest to priest on a truly aggravating level. We have an OF approximation of Missa Cantata on Sundays and feasts at the parish for which I work. When Father is out of town and uses a sub, or when the bishop comes, do they ever sing? Nope. Always a letdown to sing a grand processional and then the introit, only for that to be followed by (spoken) "Good morning, brothers and sisters. Let us start in the name..."
  • RANT WARNING:

    . A profit motive should help them to make music that people want rather than push ideologically motivated music that people don't want.


    And yet, OCP has been producing this stuff for decades....

    If someone said to you "music that people want" and "ideologically motivated music" are, apparently, in the same box, not opposed boxes, you might accuse that person of being stupid or pushy or something, but the company continues to produce it and people continue to buy it and the ideologically pushy stuff ("I will raise YOU up", to get rid of "him"; "Faith of our Mothers", to compensate for the "Faith of our Fathers"; "Sing a New Church into being"; "All are Welcome", and all the rest) is the most popular among those parishes which buy (literally, as well as figuratively) the whole program.


    In a polarized church, there will be people on both poles who have a demand for music targeted towards their niche. That being said, making your whole company about targeting an extreme end of the polarized spectrum is no way to run a company, and I think it is quite clear that OCP and GIA have greatly financially hurt themselves by ideologically pigeonholing themselves (GIA much more so than OCP). That is to say, that the choices made by these companies have been contrary to what market forces would suggest they ought to have chosen.

    I have, however, recently heard the claim that GIA lost so many mainstream parishes that it is now in their business interest to openly be as progressive as possible to keep the customers they have left. I'm curious if anyone has any intel on this.

    Furthermore, let's dig into this list of ideologically motivated music. I think that this list is also intended to list songs that have been big hits. First, let's take a look at the copyright dates of these songs:

    I Am the Bread of Life - 1966
    Sing a New Church - 1991
    All Are Welcome - 1994

    It's significant that the newest song you listed came out in 1994. Neither GIA nor OCP has had a major hit in about 20 years. By major hit I, I mean a song that is at least as well known by practicing Catholics as the songs listed here so far by Chris Garton-Zavesky.

    Sing a New Church and All Are Welcome are going out of style along with many of their other hits from the 60s to 90s, and OCP and GIA have little to replace them with. The ideological monoculture of their catalogue is a significant contributing factor to these songs going out of style. Hardly anyone credible plays Sing a New Church anymore, as that song is basically a meme of bad post-Vatican II liturgy. All Are Welcome also seems to be declining in popularity.

    I Am The Bread Of Life is a song that I deeply love and seems to me to be holding steady in popularity.

    Due to a 20 year hit drought along with many of their older songs falling out of style, as far as I can tell, GIA and OCP appear to be on track to be in very significant financial trouble if they are not in such condition already. We already saw WLP go under fairly recently.

    All of this is to say, that the major Catholic liturgical publishers seems to be very badly aligned with what a profit motive would encourage them to do. I think more time on this message board should be spent discussing why these publishers are not following their financial best interests.

    Furthermore, I would advise those of you who support traditional music to make the business case for it ("everyone wants it and lots of people will buy it") instead of the charity case for it ("hardly anyone wants this music so it's too bad you can't make money on it, but could you please do us a favor and make some anyway"). I think the latter argument deeply undercuts the positions many of you hold, but I see that logic stated on this board fairly regularly.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • An aside: When we're speaking of the 'personalist' element in contemporary music, does that include the technical side as well as the emotional side? Because what I've noticed in singing from the WLP recently is just how virtuosic a lot of the entries are. The irregular rhythms, the word underlay changing from verse to verse, a lot of non-intuitive jumps - it's not that the music itself is bad per se, they just don't make sense as congregational pieces. (I'm probably bringing nothing new to the table here.)


    OCP/GIA/WLP are for the most part institutionally incapable of making good praise and worship music. For practical purposes, anything they make should not be considered an authentic exemplar of praise and worship even if the publisher is advertising it as such.

    Syncopation is an intrinsic part of praise and worship, but good praise and worship has intuitive syncopations that support the text well and are natural for untrained musicians to sing. I have noticed that while this is true of mainstream praise and worship, that there are a lot of really unintuitive syncopations in contemporary offerings from OCP/GIA/WLP. I find this frustrating.
  • I'm confused by a lot of these claims about a "personalist" element to praise and worship.

    Just as you find it interesting to see a difference, I find it puzzling (and informative) that one side in this thread keeps coming back to the "fit for liturgy" argument, while the other latches on to the "emotional" or "personalist" approach to prayer.


    You may indeed think it is a false dichotomy, but if you look back at the thread, you'll see these two principles in conflict with each other, or perhaps being shot past each other.

    That which is liturgically appropriate can (and often is) affectively effective, but since our responses to individual pieces of music are (mostly) individual and personal, this standard (that it speaks to me) can't be used to decide if music can or should be used at the public worship of the Church.


    I'm not sure what is meant by the word "personalist." If it means something like "music that speaks to me personally", I think that everyone on this board programs music that speaks to them personally. It's unclear to me how this has anything to do with praise and worship specifically.

    I certainly agree that music speaking to you personally can not be used as a sole criteria for what is liturgically appropriate. I think we all agree that this should be one out of several criteria though, yes? To illustrate, surely no one would program a piece for which they were certain would cause no affective response in every single member of the congregation. I also think there are ways of intuiting what is likely to be affectively beneficial for a substantial percentage of the congregation.

    Basically, I see absolutely no dichotomy between being fit for the liturgy in other ways and being fit of the liturgy in terms of being likely to produce beneficial emotional responses.

  • This is indeed problematic. In their defense, they are presented in a way that is typically in accord with traditional hymnody (musically speaking; something that can't be said for P&W). But there is some merit to your observation, certainly. There is a fine degree of separation however; these other works are readily adapted to their new task in a way that isn't at odd with the larger tradition of hymnody. P&W music cannot claim the same. Stylistically it imitates secular music, is played on instruments which, if we wish to be technical, are only suited to secular music and were banned by Pius X (although this is no longer observed), and cannot be dressed up in any way that makes it seem like any form of well-established liturgical music.

    As for the latter half of this observation regarding Bach & Mozart, their liturgical music was conceived as liturgical music. It happened to be orchestral, so it bears obvious similarities to their other work. I'm not sure how it could not when one employs a full orchestra to make the grandest musical offering possible. But in the sense of Gebrauchsmusik, it is liturgical music—so conceived—from the get-go. You'll also note that they didn't write music using street bands as ensembles. It was high-art music, not common-man music.

    When I write music for Mass, I don't expect it to also pull double-duty on the radio as easy-listening music once the pews are empty. I also try not to write pedestrian music (read: quotidian in style and essence; 'pedestrian' is not intended as a derogatory term). Is it the same in P&W culture? I don't think it is.


    Musicam Sacram delegated the right to determine what instruments were suitable to the liturgy to national Bishop's conferences:
    62. Musical instruments can be very useful in sacred celebrations, whether they accompany the singing or whether they are played as solo instruments.

    "The pipe organ is to be held in high esteem in the Latin Church, since it is its traditional instrument, the sound of which can add a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lift up men's minds to God and higher things.

    "The use of other instruments may also be admitted in divine worship, given the decision and consent of the competent territorial authority, provided that the instruments are suitable for sacred use, or can be adapted to it, that they are in keeping with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful."


    As far as I can tell, Pius X's ban on the piano is no longer in force. Absent a ban from the USCCB on the instruments commonly used in praise and worship, I think it is going to be difficult to definitively claim they are not appropriate for the liturgy, particularly when they are in common use throughout the country. Certainly the USCCB is not ignorant that the piano and guitar are commonly played liturgically.

    I read you as claiming that instruments originally made for orchestral music can be repurposed for the liturgy, but not instruments originally made for folk music. And, I'm being careful to use the word folk music here, because pop, rock, and all other forms of modern music using guitars, pianos, drums, and the like historically arise after the development for these instruments in folk music.

    I see no good reason to believe that orchestral instruments can be adopted but not folk instruments.

    I also see no good reason to believe that some degree of stylistic resemblance between a popular form of music and a liturgical form of music is a point against said liturgical form of music. Basically, I think that praise and worship resembles folk music about as much as Bach's and Mozart's liturgical music resembles Baroque and Classical orchestral music. Anything other than Gregorian plainchant is going to have some resemblance to non-religious music and perhaps multiple cycles of inspiration between the sacred and secular genres.

    A standard I would propose instead - that works of music have a teleos, and that the teleos need to be that it is designed to be liturgical music and designed for worship of God. Some ways this teleos can be perceived is in how the music supports the text and how the music communicates a sense of the sacred. I think that you can accomplish this teleos with an organ, with an orchestra, and with a praise and worship band.

    Good praise and worship is designed from the ground up to be sung at church. Hillsong Worship, Bethel, Chris Tomlin, and many others write their songs to be sung at church. Now, these songs are designed with the needs of Evangelical churches in mind and so only some of them translate well to a Catholic Mass, but still, there is often enough in common that some of these songs work very well.

    Praise and worship songs being half made for church and half made for the radio is a significant problem in the genre. Sometimes there will be a core of the song that works well at church but then the song is livened up for the radio, such as being sung in a higher key, having extra stuff added at the end that only works for a soloist, or being sung with pop-style vocal technique that just isn't acceptable liturgically. This stuff makes praise and worship look bad and I wish it would stop.

    high-art music, not common-man music


    I don't think this is a workable criterion for liturgical music. I will happily retract this if it can be shown otherwise, but to my knowledge this criterion is absent in any church documents on liturgical music.

    The central problem with this is that musicologists believe that the distinction between high and low art is socially constructed. Art forms have gone back and forth between high and low art based on changing public opinion. Again if people have sources to the contrary I would love to learn more.

    There is a difference between having a high standard for art and having a standard that art must be an exemplar of a "high" genre.

    Also, if anything, this logic seems backwards to me. We want the common man to be able to appreciate liturgical music, yes? So, why not find a way to make something sacred out of an idiom he is prepared to appreciate easily?
  • For a real example to consider and evaluate, this is the most recent release from OCP in the P&W genre, or what it considers to be P&W. The "artist" is a guy whom OCP is really, really pushing hard trying to make him their in-house Matt Maher:

    https://youtu.be/blIbwkWC30Y

    The song's piano accompaniment and melodic rhythm mimic some of Matt Maher's more popular songs: simple, repetitive, pulsating piano/keyboard accompaniment consisting of 3-4 chords played using inversions that require little change in fingering from one chord to the next as a foundation over which a melodic line is sung. The melody often has two iterations: a regular version to begin with, and an almost identical version that adds some flourishes using higher notes for dramatic effect as the song builds.


    Interesting example! Generally, I think that any sentence starting with OCP ipso facto has no useful conclusions about praise and worship, since they are so bad at it. However, I am very impressed with Thomas Muglia. He's their first artist since Matt Maher who sounds like actual mainstream praise and worship.

    I think you posted Thomas Muglia's 3rd best song. I heard about this song from reading your post! Some critical feedback on this song:
    -This very much sounds like a normal praise and worship song
    -Good text
    -The text and the music fit very naturally
    -The rhythms are very intuitive. I could play them without having to put much conscious effort into counting them out.
    -I think that the second half of the refrain is a bit weak.
    -I think the song is beautiful but not quite memorable.
    -This song is just slightly below my standards for what I would program, particularly considering that anything coming from OCP requires me to buy new music while anything from SongSelect is already included in what my ministry has paid for already. Hypothetically I might buy this song if I thought it was the best option to fit the readings on a given Sunday.

    As a minor technical point, there are 5 main chords used in this song: I, ii, IV, V, and vi.
    https://dh8zy5a1i9xe5.cloudfront.net/shared/pdf/preview/30148081.pdf

    I think these are Thomas Muglia's two best songs:
    1. Litany of Humility: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WIa0v8chTNo
    2. You're Not Done https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GfvMGAXiEb8

    This song's musical style could be in a Disney movie. Lyrics could easily be substituted that would be about the main character's introspective yearning for adventure and meaningfulness while living a mundane, dreary life. Think "Moana" singing about leaving the island in "How Far I'll Go".

    https://youtu.be/cPAbx5kgCJo

    And that's a big problem with the P&W genre: its very strong resemblance to the musical style of secular music, especially musical theater.

    That's why P&W in many circumstances would not be a good choice for music at Mass. Under some pastoral circumstances its use could be justified, but I think only as a temporary concession while the barge is steered in a different direction.

    As religious entertainment or for devotional purposes, P&W music can be used advantageously.


    I disagree with this. There are elements in common between the two songs you posted. There are also elements in common between "Pastime Paradise" by Stevie Wonder (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_H3Sv2zad6s&ab_channel=SpartanVc) and Bach's Prelude No.2 in C Minor, BWV 847 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgiyO8xrNsI&ab_channel=NoahFire). The point being, while Stevie Wonder samples his lick from Bach, the things that people would say are most important about these two songs are completely different, that is, one could say that they differ in their teleos.

    I have similar feelings about the degree of similarity between Thomas Muglia and Moana. I think it's plainly obvious from listening to Thomas Muglia's song that it is intended to be a worship song, and it's plainly obvious that the Moana song is designed to be a Disney song.

    The Moana song would not work as a worship song if the lyrics were changed out for religious ones. There are a number of aspects of this song that work well for a Disney song that would torpedo it as a worship song. For example:
    -the song is written to have the "I" in "I've been standing..." have very heavy emphasis, and similar effects occur throughout the song. This song is written from front to back to place a strong emphasis on the feelings of the individual singing it. No good worship song is constructed like this, certainly no good worship song starts with a super strong emphasis of the word "I." (in fact, on relistening to this song, the super strong emphasis on nearly every occurrence of the word "I" seriously annoys me)
    -The way the song builds and spends energy works great for telling the story of the character, and repurposing this for a worship song would create square peg/round hole problems. Take for example, the "bump bump bum" punctuation at 1:12-1:13 on the time stamp. There are lots of jarring interruptions like that which would badly detract from the emphasis of a worship song.
    -Instruments and voices are used in a way totally different from how a worship song would use them, one could change this fairly simply I suppose, but in this case they seem pretty integral to the fundamental character of the song.

    Basically, the things about this song that have some resemblance to a worship song is that some of the same instruments are used, and the song opens with some synth sounding stuff that is in fact a common feature of worship songs. But, everything important about the architecture of the song, from the emphasis of the words, to the rhythms, to the arc of the song, is designed to support the needs of a Disney character. Hence, I view the similarities between this and a worship song to be superficial as the teleos of this song is clearly that of a Disney song.

  • A standard I would propose instead - that works of music have a teleos, and that the teleos need to be that it is designed to be liturgical music and designed for worship of God.


    While I understand your thought, I would argue that it is contrary to the teachings of the church. The first would be from Vatican II which said that chant had "pride of place." This means that we should do chant unless it is not possible (Ex: a particular piece is too difficult for the singers, but a lot of the propers have simplified versions).

    The second would be teachings from popes. Here is a quote from JPII who is in fact quoting Pius X:
    With regard to compositions of liturgical music, I make my own the “general rule” that St Pius X formulated in these words: The more closely a composition for church approaches in its movement, inspiration and savour the Gregorian melodic form, the more sacred and liturgical it becomes; and the more out of harmony it is with that supreme model, the less worthy it is of the temple”. It is not, of course, a question of imitating Gregorian chant but rather of ensuring that new compositions are imbued with the same spirit that inspired and little by little came to shape it.

    John Paul is affirming that chant is THE music of the Catholic Church. And while we cannot get everyone to switch immediately, it should be the long term goal.

    One other point I would like to make is that I do actually agree with you on orchestral settings of the ordinary. While many of them are beautiful pieces of music, I don't like doing them at mass (that would be the subject of a new thread, so I will not hijack this one to start that discussion).

    Edit: I had the quote box in the wrong spot, it is now fixed.
    Thanked by 2KARU27 ServiamScores
  • KARU27
    Posts: 184
    I think that currently we (modern people who have a vast access to electronics) have such a range of musical taste, exposure, education and appreciation to different music, and most of it is seen as a consumer choice. This person loves country and hates rap, this person loves classic rock and hates everything else, this person loves K-pop and hates country, etc.
    That is one big reason that the music at church shouldn't sound like anything commercial or of a popular genre. It should be the authentic music of the church. Guess what that is.
  • I have harped to my choir multiple times in the last two years, in particular, that “the music that we sing at mass should not sound like any other music you hear during the rest of the week. It should be totally ‘other’… totally unmistakable for anything other than what it is: Mass music.”

    I want people to come into ‘a new world’ so to speak. To find something (Jesus first, music second) that they cannot find or experience in any other way, anywhere else.
  • As someone on this forum has said before (I want to say it's our resident Byzantine Volunteer), Gregorian chant, as well as Latin, are the Western vocal equivalents of the Eastern Iconostasis. Not impregnable, nor an open door. They require engagement and diligence in order to see what's on the "other side".

    Chant is "totally other" in that it has never been 'pop', in the modern sense of the word. P & W, yes. Polyphony, yes. Mozart, yes. Thomas Aquinas didn't end up on 'Ye Toppe Fortie Countedowne' for writing Pange Lingua or O Sacrum Convivium. Chant sounded just as foreign to Mediaeval ears as it does today.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    Stimson, I think the church has put emphasis in the wrong place since Vatican II. It became obsessed with bringing the church into the modern world. It should have put the emphasis on bringing the modern world into the church and transforming it.
  • This obsession made abundantly clear by the responsa ad dubia released by Archbishop Roach this morning. It's great to know that we have a Pope whose got his priorities straight.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW KARU27
  • For those who hadn't see this response:
    https://www.lifesitenews.com/opinion/rome-drops-new-bombshells-on-traditional-mass/
    It features some real bombshells.
  • Parts of it remind me of Trenton Lee Stewart's The Mysterious Benedict Society.

  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,978
    This is not unexpected since I thought the groundwork was being laid to suppress the 1962 missal. In practice, some bishops will not do it and, unfortunately, many will suppress it. It's back to the way things were before Benedict. I am no particular fan of the Latin mass but I question, with all the real problems in the world, why this issue is of such great importance to the pope. The Trads are not great in number and while they can sometimes be annoying and self-righteous, I can't see that they do any real harm to the church. They are not, by any measure, in numbers great enough to be the tail that wags the dog. Why is this issue so important?
  • MarkB
    Posts: 1,079
    So this thread doesn't get hijacked or derailed to become a discussion of the Responsa ad Dubia released this morning, I'll start a new thread about that.
  • Absent a ban from the USCCB on the instruments commonly used in praise and worship, I think it is going to be difficult to definitively claim they are not appropriate for the liturgy, particularly when they are in common use throughout the country. Certainly the USCCB is not ignorant that the piano and guitar are commonly played liturgically.


    Contemporary Worship,

    The instruments commonly used for Praise and Worship music are unsuitable for the liturgy, but it's not my judgment which makes them so. I'm reminded of a comment I heard (I was in the room) when Francis Cardinal Arinze was asked about Holy Communion for supporters of abortion. He said, with his thick Nigerian accent, "Do you really need a Cardinal... from the Vatican.... to answer a question which every first communion student could answer?"

    Actual, proper, Catholic liturgical discipline has not been (for reasons I'm unprepared to explore) not the priority of the American bishops for decades. Banning instruments and wholly unsuitable music has simply not been on the "to do" lists of bishops here and elsewhere. Their choice, however, doesn't make this music suitable or these instruments worthy, any more than their failure to declare that the world is round makes it flat.
  • The instruments commonly used for Praise and Worship music are unsuitable for the liturgy, but it's not my judgment which makes them so.


    Whose judgement then?

    It's certainly the subjective judgement of most of the people on this message board that they are not appropriate, but that doesn't seem to match the subjective judgement of the majority of Catholics who attend Mass on Sunday or the majority of those who volunteer as liturgical musicians.

    So, if the judgement is based on majority opinion, majority opinion seems to favor my side of the argument. The language in Musicam Sacram makes it sound to me like majority opinion may in fact be the relevant standard:
    63. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.


    If the judgement is based on some objectively discernable factor, what is that factor? One could propose that no instruments that are used for secular music could be used liturgically, but it seems to me that would end up ruling out all instruments including the organ. For example, most major symphony orchestras feature the organ as part of their repertoire.

    Actual, proper, Catholic liturgical discipline has not been (for reasons I'm unprepared to explore) not the priority of the American bishops for decades. Banning instruments and wholly unsuitable music has simply not been on the "to do" lists of bishops here and elsewhere. Their choice, however, doesn't make this music suitable or these instruments worthy, any more than their failure to declare that the world is round makes it flat.


    I think that there is more to the story here. The USCCB has provided various instructions on liturgical music, most recently the document Sing to the Lord. It seems significant to me that the instructions from the USCCB don't match some of the viewpoints that are commonly stated on this message board.

    Now, the USCCB can certainly be wrong in it's judgements. That being said, I think there is some serious tension between the idea that traditional music is the only acceptable form of music for the liturgy and is thus the only choice for obedient Catholics, and the actual Catholic bishops saying otherwise. For example, Sing to the Lord states that:
    84. In the years immediately following the liturgical reforms of the Second Vatican Council, especially because of the introduction of vernacular language, composers and publishers worked to provide a new repertoire of music for indigenous language(s). In subsequent decades, this effort has matured, and a body of worthy vernacular liturgical music continues to develop, even though much of the early music has fallen into disuse. Today, as they continue to serve the Church at prayer, composers are encouraged to concentrate on craftsmanship and artistic excellence in all musical genres.


  • While I understand your thought, I would argue that it is contrary to the teachings of the church. The first would be from Vatican II which said that chant had "pride of place." This means that we should do chant unless it is not possible (Ex: a particular piece is too difficult for the singers, but a lot of the propers have simplified versions).


    I don't think this is what is meant by pride of place. The language in Sacrosanctum Concilium seems to me to make a much weaker claim than this:
    116. The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services.

    But other kinds of sacred music, especially polyphony, are by no means excluded from liturgical celebrations, so long as they accord with the spirit of the liturgical action, as laid down in Art. 30.


    Sing to the Lord comments on this, noting:
    The “pride of place” given to Gregorian chant by the Second Vatican Council is modified by the important phrase “other things being equal.” These “other things” are the important liturgical and pastoral concerns facing every bishop, pastor, and liturgical musician.


    Furthermore, SC goes on to say that:
    119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.
    Thanked by 2Elmar PaxMelodious
  • 119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.

    Does this justify foregoing normal liturgical music in favor of music that imitates all the secular music on the radio in America? We haven't been a missionary territory for 250 years and our literacy rate is extremely high, even in the lowest strata of society. This would seem to indicate to me that no concession needs to continue to be made on this front.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • Really, this discussion has become far more complex than it needs to be. Current practice doesn't (ought not to) exist in a vacuum. Has very secular-style music played by a band and sung in the vernacular ever in the history of the Church been permitted as suitable liturgical music? No. That should be the end of discussion right there.
  • 119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.
    Does this justify foregoing normal liturgical music in favor of music that imitates all the secular music on the radio in America? We haven't been a missionary territory for 250 years and our literacy rate is extremely high, even in the lowest strata of society. This would seem to indicate to me that no concession needs to continue to be made on this front.


    It seems very unlikely to me that the interpretation of ServiamScores matches the plain meaning of the text. This paragraph is not exclusively talking about mission lands, else the language would be quite different.

    Compare the actual text:
    In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life.


    To what it would need to say if this was about mission territory only:
    In mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life.


    Even if one were to grant the interpretation ServiamScores, surely the post-Christian secular West is mission territory right now. And if it isn't being treated that way, I think that's a sign of the degree to which we are asleep at the wheel.
  • Contemporary,

    If the "post-Christian secular West" is mission territory right now, that's the result of attempted collaboration with it -- that is, not being sufficiently authentic and insistent on what it means to be Catholic. The collaboration failed spectacularly. Using more secular idioms in an attempt to draw the secular world away from secularism is exactly what we're NOT supposed to do.
  • If the "post-Christian secular West" is mission territory right now, that's the result of attempted collaboration with it -- that is, not being sufficiently authentic and insistent on what it means to be Catholic.


    I largely agree with this. But, a lot of things seem to be inappropriately mixed together here. Clearly, the sort of issues we had in the 60s with priests not believing the teachings of the Church (even the real presence), and and a strategy of not stating any doctrinal teaching that might even possibly be unpopular, created major problems. I agree that this is a terrible idea.

    I also agree in general that ugly architecture and ugly music can communicate to people that we don't really believe the things we say we believe.

    Where I depart from your analysis is when it comes to claims that contemporary music can't authentically communicate the faith.

    As an aside, when it comes to being:
    insistent on what it means to be Catholic

    Are we really going to gatekeep who we think is a "real" Catholic based on their preferred genre of liturgical music?

    I depart from your claims about the potential for contemporary music in part because it seems to me that Sacrosanctum Concilium departs from your claim. Compare your claim:
    Using more secular idioms in an attempt to draw the secular world away from secularism is exactly what we're NOT supposed to do.

    With:
    119. In certain parts of the world, especially mission lands, there are peoples who have their own musical traditions, and these play a great part in their religious and social life. For this reason due importance is to be attached to their music, and a suitable place is to be given to it, not only in forming their attitude toward religion, but also in adapting worship to their native genius, as indicated in Art. 39 and 40.


    I'm curious if you straight up disagree with Sacroscanctum Concilium, or whether you have some way of parsing both these statements so that they work together.

    But, to respond to you and some other previous posters, there is a very big difference between taking the ingredients that belong to a culture and forming them into sacred music, and just putting sacred lyrics to popular music.

    In fact, Musicam Sacram seems to have exactly this in mind when it defines sacred music:
    4. It is to be hoped that pastors of souls, musicians and the faithful will gladly accept these norms and put them into practice, uniting their efforts to attain the true purpose of sacred music, "which is the glory of God and the sanctification of the faithful."

    (a) By sacred music is understood that which, being created for the celebration of divine worship, is endowed with a certain holy sincerity of form.

    (b) The following come under the title of sacred music here: Gregorian chant, sacred polyphony in its various forms both ancient and modern, sacred music for the organ and other approved instruments, and sacred popular music, be it liturgical or simply religious.


    Musicam Sacram envisions the existence of liturgical sacred popular music. While praise and worship didn't exist as a genre yet, I presume that something like it is what this language is referring to. If it isn't, I'm curious what all of you think it could mean.

    I also think Pope Francis had something like this in mind in his address to the Scholae Cantorum of the Italian Association of Saint Cecelia:
    Sacred music also carries out another task, that of bringing together Christian history: in the liturgy, Gregorian chant, polyphony, popular music and contemporary music resonate. It is as though, in that moment, there were all the past and present generations praising God, each with its own sensitivity. Not only that, but sacred music – and music in general – creates bridges, brings people closer, even the most distant; it knows no barriers of nationality, ethnicity, or skin colour, but involves everyone in a higher language, and always manages to bring together people and groups even from very different backgrounds. Religious music shortens distances, even between those brothers and sisters who sometimes do not feel they are close. For this reason, in each parish the singing group is a group where one encounters availability and mutual help.https://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_instr_19670305_musicam-sacram_en.html


    Does this justify foregoing normal liturgical music in favor of music that imitates all the secular music on the radio in America?

    This person loves country and hates rap, this person loves classic rock and hates everything else, this person loves K-pop and hates country, etc.
    That is one big reason that the music at church shouldn't sound like anything commercial or of a popular genre.


    An important distinction: There are two types of contemporary Christian music:
    1. "Contemporary Christian Music (CCM)" - this is 90% of what gets played on Christian radio stations. It is basically Christian pop, and sometimes Christian Country or Christian Rock, or Christian whatever style of secular music is popular. Basically none of this is liturgically appropriate, and for the record, hardly anyone plays any of this stuff liturgically.
    2. "Praise and Worship Music" or "Worship Music" - most of this music does not get played on the radio, although radio airplay does occur sometimes. Praise and worship music is written to be sung by congregations at church and to sound sacred.
  • "Sacred poluar music" in my reading would seem to indicate vernacular hymnody, not actual literal "pop" music. I would think "popular" in this sense would simply mean familiar devotional music known to the people, such as things that may have been sung during Low Mass or Exposition before the reform.
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 9,215
    Here's the Latin text of Musicam sacram:
    https://forum.musicasacra.com/forum/uploads/2008/03/Musicam Sacram optimized again.pdf
    4b: Sub nomine musicae sacrae hic veniunt: cantus gregorianus, polyphonia sacra antiqua et moderna in suis diversis generibus, musica sacra pro organo et aliis admissis instrumentis, et cantus popularis sacer seu liturgicus et religiosus.


    Cantus popularis sacer refers to song for the people: song on liturgical texts and non-liturgical religious texts. The footnote in MS points back to the 1958 instruction De musica sacra (Latin, English) where the term cantus popularis religiosus was used for congregational hymns; sections 51-53 of the document address the topic:

    51. Popular religious song is to be highly recommended and promoted. By means of it, in fact, Christian life is filled with religious spirit and the minds of the faithful are elevated. Popular religious song has a place in all the solemnities of Christian life, whether in public or in the family, and even during the labors of daily life; but it has an even nobler part to play in all the .. pious exercises" performed inside and outside the church; and it is sometimes admitted in liturgical functions themselves, according to the norms set down in numbers 13-15.
    52. So that popular religious songs may then accomplish their purpose, "it is necessary that they fully conform to the doctrine of the Catholic Faith, that they expound and explain it rightly, that they use simple language and simple melodies, that they be free of ostentatious and inane superfluity of words, and finally, even if they are short and catchy, that they contain a religious dignity and seriousness." (Musicae sacrae disciplina: AAS 48 [1956] 20.) The Ordinary must watch with care that these prescriptions be observed.
    53. All those who are interested in the subject are urged to collect the popular religious songs, even the most ancient, which have been written or passed down by word of mouth, and to publish them for the use of the faithful, subject to the approval of the Ordinaries of places.