Sequence for Pentecost
  • ChapmanGonzalez
    Posts: 31
    Does anyone have any thoughts or suggestions for shortening the Pentecost Sequence? Thanks for your help.
  • Jeffrey Quick
    Posts: 2,045
    Don't.

    The nice thing about the Tridentine Rite is that I don't have to think about such things, since they are unpossible.

    There are only 10 verses, as opposed to the 24 of Lauda Sion, and they're tighter-argued, I think. Plus sequences have a musical/poetic form; it's not just like cutting verse 8 of a hymn, but more like taking the development out of a Beethoven sonata because that's where all the hard keys come in.

    if it's a choice between doing a bowdlerized Veni Sancte Spiritus and none, do none. If it's a command that you MUST do the Veni AND it must be cut, tell Father "it can't be done".

    I'm sorry if this isn't helpful to you personally; I thinkit's highly helpful to the Church.
    Thanked by 7Nathan_the_Organist M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen CCooze ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw JL
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Chapman,

    What goal are you trying to attain by shortening it? Knowing this will help us help you shorten it. [That said, I'm entirely convinced that Jeffrey is right. ]
    Thanked by 3ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw MatthewRoth
  • Casavant Organist
    Posts: 800
    I actually have a pretty fast rhymicized version... pm me if you want it, since it's not my own I don't want to share publicly. You'll have it done in like 2 minutes.
    Thanked by 1ChapmanGonzalez
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    Cutting the text is verboten. It can be recited. It's pretty short as it is. Assuming the objection is one of Emperor Joseph II to "too many notes" of the chant . . . then I'd consider that the rhyming scheme is AABCCB, and offhand I can't think of a 7.7.7.7.7.7 tune other than CASWELL* that matches that elegantly, though I guess you could shoehorn the English text into better known to Catholic tunes like RATISBON (commonly used for Christ Whose Glory Fills The Skies).

    * https://hymnary.org/hymn/CAH2000/page/189
    Thanked by 2M. Jackson Osborn ChapmanGonzalez
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    Alas! We seem to be living in a 'don't sing all the verses' or 'how many verses can we omit' age don't we? Now it's not only hymns that are 'too long', it's the ritual text itself. The sequence IS part and parcel of the ritual text. To savage it, besides being illicit, would be pure liturgical butchery..

    (There IS a truncated version in The Hymnal 1940, but I would never use it. The version in The English Hymnal is complete, but of course the translation is not official to the Catholic Church (though it is to the Ordinariate).
    Thanked by 5CCooze ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw MatthewRoth Jehan_Boutte
  • JonathanKKJonathanKK
    Posts: 542
    HERE is a podcast Fr. Zuhlsdorf did on it. I think this is where he points out, the structure of it goes up, turns a corner between the middle verses, and comes back down again, like a gothic arch. Once you see that, you may as well memorize it, it is that simple to keep track of (in Latin, with the chant melody, of course).
    Thanked by 5M. Jackson Osborn CCooze CHGiffen ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    It took us just a few seconds past 2 minutes to chant this at the Easter Vigil confirmations, and that included some ebbing and flowing to facilitate organum.
    It's really not long and is beautiful.
    Thanked by 4M. Jackson Osborn CHGiffen ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw
  • M. Jackson Osborn
    Posts: 8,366
    Often, it isn't the length that is the problem, it's the boredom of the singers and priests.
    Thanked by 4CHGiffen CCooze ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Or supposing the boredom/restlessness of PIPs.
    Uh oh, the readings are a little longer today, if we don't psalm-tone the entirety of the gradual and tract/alleluia, they might revolt for having had to be at Mass an extra 2-10 minutes.
    Thanked by 2ChapmanGonzalez tomjaw
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    @CCooze

    There was one year me and the Schola director were the only two at practice before Palm Sunday going over the chant before the service. We noticed the length of the Tract for the mass and we had to make a quick choice because there was the option to Psalm tone it or sing through the whole thing (longest Tract in the year). I straight up told the MD that I was too long out of the game doing any psalm toning that we made the PIPs suffer through every bit of Chant. No one complained nor were our effigies burned in consequence, and since then, every year we sing everything for the liturgy.

    Thanked by 6CHGiffen M. Jackson Osborn tomjaw MatthewRoth Chrism JonathanKK
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,767
    image
    Veni S S.pdf
    16K
    Veni S S.pdf
    16K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I always had a cantor sing then the entire choir sing the responses on the sequence. Somehow I never had the impression it was long. I rather liked it.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    @sdtalley3 , I made this one up years ago, when my sister and I were the only cantors singing that Sunday, which also came in handy last year, when 2 of us sang our parish's Palm Sunday missa cantata, and (because of "covid") still didn't get to have a legitimate Palm Sunday procession:
    Palm Sunday Mass - without procession - modified Grad and Tract (1).pdf
    1M
    Thanked by 3CHGiffen sdtalley3 tomjaw
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,939
    . I straight up told the MD that I was too long out of the game doing any psalm toning that we made the PIPs suffer through every bit of Chant. No one complained nor were our effigies burned in consequence, and since then, every year we sing everything for the liturgy.


    This is the way.

    Also, is it even licit to omit the Pentecost sequence? I don't remember it even being read well into my middle school years, then it was sung in Latin or English at every liturgy since; obviously, it's never omitted in the TLM, and if I go to the TLM as is my custom, then it'd be a sung Mass…

    Regardless, I cannot imagine cutting this sequence; I can barely imagine cutting that of Corpus Christi.
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen CCooze
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    The modern age really doesn’t want to pray, does it? Sad commentary that we are cutting prayers. We should want to do more for God, not less...
    Thanked by 4CharlesW tomjaw CHGiffen CCooze
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Davido,

    Jonas the prophet was sent to the Ninevites, to urge them to turn from their sins. They did, and God spared the city. The Wuhan Flu and 2020 were sent to our time.... and we turned away in large numbers. What ought we to conclude about what awaits us, in the near term?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    @MatthewRoth

    I don’t think it’s licit to shorten or exclude any part of the sung propers outside of the psalm tones....I shudder to think that those (Rossini Psalm Tones propers) were even a thing when I was starting out Chanting for the mass. We eventually got away from those and the Liber Usualis is our norm now.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    @CCooze

    I’d actually like to hear any “performance” you might have singing propers etc. My experience was either men, and men only, or the nuns singing them at the Novitiate where I would occasionally serve for Mass, Vespers, and Holy Hour. Very rarely have I come across any mixed choir singing them, but based upon what others have said above, my stance is, “Why Not?” I think it’s important that women who are seriously involved in choir work be just as familiar in singing/reading/following chant as any of the men. That’s just my take on the matter and I’m only a simple “rube” in the mix of nuts, flakes, and fruits at my church.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Sdtalley3,

    "Why not?" is, usually, assuming that the status quo ante can and should be disregarded, but occasionally "Why not?" is the beginning of a litany of well-thought-out reasons why a particular change shouldn't take place.

    Which did you mean?
  • sdtalley3sdtalley3
    Posts: 260
    @CGZ

    I mean by “Why not?”, that the supposed status quo ante should be disregarded. This is in relation to places I frequent, where women’s involvement is null in regards to the Propers...This topic probably belongs on another similar thread, so I’ll leave some thoughts there.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    I even saw a Pentecost Sequence set to the Ode to Joy. A local pastor gushed profusely about its beauty and I was approached to use it. I didn't.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,942
    "I even saw a Pentecost Sequence set to the Ode to Joy."

    Trying to figure out how to squeeze a 7.7.7.7.7.7 text into 8.7.8.7 D ; should not be done in front of children or horses....
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • CatholicZ09
    Posts: 264
    Charles,

    I think that some people actually believe the hymn/metrical versions of the sequences are the actual sequences themselves. When someone wants to shorten the "Pentecost Sequence," often he or she means shorten the "Ode to Joy" adaptation of the sequence.

    Just do the actual sequence...

    However, Richard Proulx composed a nice setting of it where the cantor intones "Veni sancte spiritus" and the people respond. The cantor then sings a verse or two and then "Veni sancte spiritus" with the people responding.
  • Chris Garton-Zavesky
    Posts: 6,902
    Wouldn't that lengthen rather than abbreviate the Sequence? Wouldn't it also turn the congregation into martinets rather than full, conscious, active participants?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw MatthewRoth
  • davido
    Posts: 873
    Cant participate in in the authentic, Gregorian sequence of it is always cut or replaced...
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 11,933
    The Ode to Joy sequence had verses re-written to conform to the music. I didn't like it, but the priest had been to a service at St. Snorkelsniffle by the Creek and thought that if they did it, we should, too. As I noted, I didn't do it. I thought the thing effectively destroyed the sequence.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 1,152
    I don't have any suggestions for shortening it, but since the entire congregation is supposed to sing/say it, please give everyone the music. (At Easter Mass this year, the sequence was done by the choir, with no information on where to find the melody so no one could participate in singing it.)
    Thanked by 1CCooze
  • MatthewRoth
    Posts: 1,939
    at our TLM, the priest sang odd verses standing at the epistle corner, the people the rest. Many people have a Liber Usualis (either the full nº 800 or the 804 reissued — and unfortunately updated to 1962 — by Le Barroux) or some other book with the music. We also do this for Requiem Masses.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CCooze
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