Paris Notre Dame fire
  • Maureen
    Posts: 655
    God is good!

    The rooster weathervane from the spire, which contained the relics placed in the spire in 1935, has been recovered intact! So the relics are okay too! (Picture at the Daily Mail and elsewhere.)
  • There is plenty of Islamophobia and Christianophobia to go around. Both communities are targets of it, and both communities have their share of -phobes and misanthropes under their tents. The wise do not judge or blame the other community for the crazy and hateful people who are found everywhere, whose hate needs a target.
    Thanked by 2Carol JL
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    an anti-Islamic false-flag operation


    No reason not to consider that, too. France has nasty cross-currents running with the gilet jaunes, not all of which are the "original" members. There are plenty of very unhappy truck drivers who have been assaulted at the sea-coast while driving their lorries onto England-bound ferries. IOW, lots of disgruntled people and/or provocateurs.

    As I said earlier, non-conspiratorially, there's a long ways to go before the investigation is complete.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I am just curious and thoughtfully concerned.


    I think we are all concerned and we don't have all the information we would like.
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,639
    It's almost twenty years on from 9/11, and we still don't have all the information we'd like. It's almost sixty years since the Kennedy assassination, and we don't have all the information we'd like. Even if we can piece things together to a reasonably satisfying conclusion (and I believe that we can in all of these instances), there are going to be some elements of human action that don't make sense, that don't fall into place. That's life.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW Carol JL
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,329
    An article about why fires are sadly common in buildings undergoing historical restoration:
    https://www.fastcompany.com/90335390/notre-dame-fire-why-historic-restorations-keep-going-up-in-flames
  • A few adjustments.
    1. It is not "Le-Duc", but Eugène Viollet-le-Duc.
    2. His restauration of Notre-Dame was based on a very extensive documentation, for the spire as well as for the structure and sculptures. For instance, there was a serie of 40 big statues, the "Galerie des rois" on the upper main facade. During the french revolution, activists believed they were statues of french king (in fact, it is the old testament kings) so they were mutilated or put down. Viollet-le-Duc recreated them, designed them and had them re-carved. 20 years ago, in an adjoining garden, the old mutilated statues and heads were found. I visited an exposition where the original, XIIe century and the XIX "copies" were confronted : You cannot tell them from each other ! Viollet-le-Duc was controversial for his restauration of Vezelay, but his work was exemplary for Notre-Dame.
    3. The spire did not weigh about 50 tons, but 500 tons of oak and 250 tons of lead.
    4. Of course there are all around the world highly skilled stained-glass makers. Then, the art of the XIII. century is lost. Many studies, analysis, of old stained-glasses, espàecially from Chartres, Notre-Dame de Paris, la Sainte-Chapelle, have been made, but there was a specific way to melt the color and the glass, a specific quality of glass, a specific chemistry of the coloring materials, such a complexity that we cannot reproduce. Losing this would mean that new windows would be installed. Different spirit, though...
    5. Similarly about the organ, it were more or less completely remade many times, specially by Cavaillé-Coll end of XIX. We made magnificent organs today, but they would not include XV. century pipes. But this material has been saved.
    6. The vault falled on at least 2 places. Regarding the structure, we have to wait a full year : stone drying this summer, then freezing next winter) to ensure they will not break and the whole structure can collapse !!! So re-build, yes, within 5 years : the objective of this annoucment is to attract tourists for Paris Olympic games of 2024... in 5 years !!!
    7. The "strange man" is a firefighter. Complementary videos confirmed this.

    Thats it for now. I will visit Notre-Dames sight next week, and in the mean time pray through the Passion and Resurrection, hoping that my country will know its own resurrection after its present passion... But Our Lady of Fatima said it all : "A la fin, mon coeur immaculé triomphera!" "By the end, my immaculate heart will triumph !"
    Sursum Corda !
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I agree with Chonak's article on the danger in restorations. Too often, contract workers are used and they are not adequately supervised. In an old building, you need fire suppression managers on the job nearly around the clock.

    Glass and roofing: I think one of the difficulties in exactly reproducing old glass is the toxicity of some of the components. You would incur heavy liability if you exposed workers to some of those chemicals and minerals. Same for lead. It is so toxic I wonder if they will have to use something else for roofing these days. I think that would be good from the toxicity standpoint and also reduce the weight on the building.

    Organ: Yes it was built by Cavaille-Coll including a number of ranks from earlier instruments. However, it has been reworked and tampered with enough that it sounds to me like a large American organ rather than a Cavaille-Coll. Listen to some earlier recordings compared to recent and you can notice the differences, even given the limitations of recording technology. The changes in the bombardes are noticeable.

    Personal observation: I always thought that spire looked out of place on that building and it might have been better if it had not been added. However, it was, but I read the government is opening up a design competition for its replacement. Who knows what that will look like?

    Lessons learned: I hope we learn more on how to actually protect and preserve those buildings. The restoration work on Cologne Cathedral incorporated modern materials and tools technologies in the restoration to preserve and protect the building. I saw a TV program on the restorations. It was interesting that some of the buttresses were made of inferior stone. Apparently, the builders used all the good stone available and had to use lesser quality stone on some of them. Of course, pollution was destroying them. They used modern coatings and materials to stabilize them and prevent future pollution damage to the stone.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • >> That spire ... I read the government is opening up a design competition for its replacement.

    Oh puhleeze. Hopefully for materials ONLY.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    LOL. Maybe a glass pyramid atop the building?
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Since it is state owned and 1 Billion was pledged I think it is going to become a monument to the new one world religion - not a restoration as many are hoping. They may keep the windows, but I think they may absorb them into a new design... aggiornamento!

    That spire ... I read the government is opening up a design competition for its replacement.


    There was no time nor concern to even morn the loss... no respect for what this church represents... almost as though they have been waiting for the opportunity...

    The key word is “replacement”... not restoration.

    This statement says to me that “we will remake the church into an entirely different and innovative species.” Has not this been the intent of VII all along? However, since Notre Dame was under the administration of the state, and was treated and “protected” as a historical monument, another way had to be found to employ the reckovation that every other church had undergone.

    Charles

    “It looks like the money will be available to rebuild the structure. Now if there were only a way to restore the faith that built the building originally.”


    There is a way but very few wish to take it. Therefore, God removes himself and his mother.

    From Noel’s article

    “Vandals and arsonists have targeted French churches in a wave of attacks that has lasted nearly two months.

    More than 10 churches have been hit since the beginning of February, with some set on fire while others were severely desecrated or damaged.

    St. Sulpice, the second-largest church in Paris, after Notre Dame Cathedral, had the large wooden door on its southern transept set ablaze March 17.

    Investigators confirmed March 18 that the fire was started deliberately, according to the website of the Vienna-based Observatory on Intolerance and Discrimination Against Christians in Europe, an independent organization founded with the help of the Council of European Bishops’ Conferences.

    In early February, in the Church of Notre-Dame-des-Enfants in Nimes, near the Spanish border, intruders drew a cross on a wall with excrement then stuck consecrated hosts to it.”


    “The Catholic hierarchy has kept silent about the episodes, limited themselves to highlighting that anti-Christian threat and expressing hope that politicians and police will get to the bottom of the crimes.

    Reports indicate that 80 percent of the desecration of places of worship in France concerns Christian churches and in the year 2018 this meant the profanation of an average of two Christian churches per day in France, even though these actions rarely make the headlines.

    In 2018, the Ministry of the Interior recorded 541 anti-Semitic acts, 100 anti-Muslim acts, and 1,063 anti-Christian acts.”


    Christianity is going the way of the black and white TV.

    An article from B16 perhaps before he was pope.

    https://www.catholiceducation.org/en/culture/catholic-contributions/cardinal-ratzinger-on-europe-s-crisis-of-culture.html

    O, Sacred Head... Surrounded
    They’ve stole your piercing thorn
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I'm sure you have already seen this, but vandalism isn't restricted to Europe. An attempt was stopped on St. Patrick's in New York last night.

    https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/18/us/st-patricks-cathedral-man-arrested-gas-lighters/index.html
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Yup... it is a global xxxxxxxxxx
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,329
    The man arrested in New York is reported to be a former parish music director, so perhaps he had reasons to be disgruntled! :-)

  • reported to be a former parish music director


    Apparently, he reportedly said that he was just trying to light a fire under the choir.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    So true! LOL. He was first described in a news report as a philosophy professor. Don't know how that checked out as true or not. Music director I could understand. ;-)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515

    Apparently, he reportedly said that he was just trying to light a fire under the choir.


    It would take more than gasoline for that to work with my choir. LOL.
  • ghmus7
    Posts: 1,222
    Well, it looks like the Great Organ is intact - it did not burn at all, and the arch directly above the organ tribune protected the organ from most of the water that was poured into the cathedral. However, it is too soon to say. It does seem like a miracle that the great windows did not collapse.

    I have to add my own personal story about this gigantic spiritual landmark.
    My teacher, the incredible Marilyn Mason, before one of her European tours, commissioned me to write a piece for her tour.
    The work started out a a little organ piece, but I got carried away , inspired my her musicianship and the thought that the music was going to be played throughout France, I wrote a evening - length work in ten movements - called The Breath of the Spirit, for organ, flute, and two narrators. The work featured beautiful poetry by the american poet, Ken Gaertner.
    The entire work was performed in Notre Dame, during the Fesitval Toussant.
    Donald Fishel was the flutist, and there were two fine french actors, Michael Lonsdale (who played Dr. No in the Bond film!) and Francois Thuries.
    below is a pic of Don playing before a packed cathedral.

    Ken passed away one month ago, and Madame Mason went to her eternal home three days before the fire!
    216 x 162 - 24K
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I did not know about those deaths. May their memories be eternal.
    Thanked by 1Carol
  • Carol
    Posts: 575
    Perhaps they should be added to the Memoriam List started a while back?
  • .
  • Elmar
    Posts: 238
    Francis,
    There was no time nor concern to even morn the loss... no respect for what this church represents... [...]
    The key word is “replacement”... not restoration. This statement says to me that “we will remake the church into an entirely different and innovative species.” Has not this been the intent of VII all along?

    Do you know the French situationation well? Especially how the relation between State and Church ("laïcité") translates into protection/restauration/renovation policy of historical church monuments owned by the state or the city?
    As far as I know, this has much more to do with the French Revolution than with Vaticanum II.

    Which makes me speculate on what you mean by ...
    ... almost as though they have been waiting for the opportunity... [...] However, since Notre Dame was under the administration of the state [...] another way had to be found to employ the reckovation that every other church had undergone.

    ... especially who is "they" in the first sentence and the implied subject in the last one - please elaborate.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I think it is too easy to blame everything on Vatican II. Yes, I will agree the bishops did a pathetic job of implementing the council. But it isn't to blame for any of the Notre Dame events. And the Novus Ordo has nothing to do with it either. Even the Tridentine mass would have made no difference. I have noted elsewhere the cathedral preceded the Tridentine mass by several hundred years.

    State ownership of the buildings has kept them from being wrecked by reformers - reformers being a nice way of saying vandals. Someone in the know tells me the state doesn't provide anywhere near enough funding to actually maintain those buildings. In reality, the ND building was starting to fall apart from time, pollution and neglect.

    The latest on the news this morning is the fire was started by an electrical short circuit. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the wiring in that building is old and should have been replaced long ago.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    “VII was the French Revolution in the Church”
    Cardinal Suenens

    Charles. If you think the TLM is some kind of magic rite, you miss the point. They threw out the baby with the bath water. The TLM is the bath water. The baby is the Faith.
    Thanked by 1madorganist
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Yes, the faith is the important thing. I suspect the damage to the faith would have happened anyway. Having grown up in the sixties, the problem was not the council but the changes in culture - they were not good changes. All of that spilled over into the church which influenced the council and the church in general.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    Novus Ordo has nothing to do with it either


    OK. Perhaps YOU can explain why the old High Altar is intact, but the roof, somehow, caved in on the new "table" altar for the NO.

    Just sayin'
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    I would say it is the design and structure of the building. The old altar is closer to the outer wall, as is the organ. The supporting stone slabs above the organ and old altar are not connected to the woodwork that supports the nave. There is a very rational explanation as to why both were saved.

    The conspiracy theorists never give up.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    Charles

    Correct. (And placement of a principal altar directly beneath the crossing is no Vatican II innovation.)

    If you're a hammer, everything will look like a nail to you.

  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,017
    The interaction between the Church, which uses the cathedral for worship, and the secular state, which owns and maintains the building, must be complicated. The state would presumably not have installed a new altar on its own initiative.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    THEY are the modernists. THEY also go by the club name of “Legion”. Another title is Destroyer or Abaddon.

    In the New Testament Book of Revelation, an angel called Abaddon is described as the king of an army of locusts; his name is first transcribed in Greek (Revelation 9:11—"whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, The Angel of Death.") as Ἀβαδδὼν, and then translated ("which in Greek means the Destroyer", Ἀπολλύων, Apollyon).
    wiki
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,017
    Some interesting insights at Aleteia, about Fr Fournier who saved the Blessed Sacrament and the relics, and video inside the Cathedral during the fire.
    Also they plan a temporary wooden replacement, perhaps they should try this - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardboard_Cathedral
    Thanked by 1Viola
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    Gee, Francis, the Usual Suspects have no sense of humor at all, which actually says a lot about them, per Chesterton....but maybe he's just a conspiracy-hammer, eh?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Chesterton is dead, you know.

    Yes, I have read about Fr. Fournier. Interesting and remarkable fellow.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    So are we all, Charles, but still walking. Here's a bit of good news which is, frankly, none of YOUR beeswax.

    In a hopeful development Friday, 180,000 bees being kept in in hives on Notre Dame’s lead roof were discovered alive.

    “I am so relieved. I saw satellite photos that showed the three hives didn’t burn. I thought they had gone with the cathedral,” Nicolas Geant, the monument’s beekeeper, told the AP.

    Geant has looked after the bees since 2013, when they were installed as part of a city-wide initiative to boost declining bee numbers.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Someone just sent an article to me from the chief architect of Notre Dame who maintains detection systems were installed and the wiring in the roof was good. He says the fire couldn't have been caused by an electrical short. Didn't know about the bees.

    https://www.sott.net/article/411378-Chief-architect-of-Notre-Dame-We-installed-new-detection-system-in-2010-and-completely-rewired-the-cathedral-so-the-fire-wasnt-caused-by-electrical-short-circuit?fbclid=IwAR0g3dvc6dO4ijcZ_ZoYI9C-SqFBkdeL8t4JnDouM2bNrCM4Z7RYiVzgSAo
  • GambaGamba
    Posts: 282
    Sott.net is a site that is associated with the Quantum Future Group, the new religious movement created by Arkadiusz Jadczyk and Laura Knight Jadczyk. It's not necessarily a scam, but it's a highly unreliable source run by people who believe they talk to aliens.

    https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Laura_Knight_Jadczyk

    Thanked by 2CharlesW a_f_hawkins
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,017
    A somewhat different interpretation of what Benjamin Mouton said. My understanding is that, strength for strength, a wood beam is more resistant to fire at typical temperatures than a steel beam (the steel softens and bends). However something like a cigarette, or a short circuit, can heat wood to combustion point just locally without any flame and very little smoke, so very difficult to find in a structure that size.
  • ...who believe they talk to...
    I talk to aliens all the time - nearly every time I go about in public. They do indeed hold strange beliefs (or should one call them non-beliefs?). You can spot some of them easily enough - they are apt to give you dirty withering looks when you wish them a 'merry Christmas'.
    Thanked by 1Elmar
  • I am confused (but glad!) as to how beehives placed on the roof of the cathedral survived when the entire roof went up in flames. Perhaps they were on the belfries?
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 2,017
    The towers at the West End were not badly affected, and have areas of flat roof and access stairs.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    The beehives were on the Sacristy roof... several stories below the roof of the sanctuary.

    As for conspiracy theories... if a muslim, leftist, or other anti-Catholic group had done this would they not have claimed responsibility? Members of the above have publicly celebrated the burning, so what have they got to loose?

    Buildings under renovation catch fire regularly, all it takes is one piece of carelessness. When I worked on historic railway carriages, we banned use of naked flames a hour before the end of the working day, and all scorched timber would be sprayed with water regularly for up to an hour after coming into contact with fire. But our workshops were full of makeshift wiring, and lighting circuits, flammable materials, all it takes is one accident and the whole lot would go up.

    We also discussed fire prevention but sprinklers can cause lots of damage and still not be effective, hint they do not put out fires but soak materials to make them difficult to burn.

    Fighting a roof fire is difficult even when it is not 100' in the air, you can pour water on the top, but it is vaporised by the heat or runs off the roof. The fire is hidden in the forest of wood (and oxygen) supporting the roof and that is difficult to get water to. A foam suppression scheme may be an idea, similar to aircraft hangers, but cleaning out the foam will not be a easy task in the clean up.

    As for Cranmer tables, it is very amusing that they have been repeatedly flattened, or fallen through the floor, but that is more due to their position and the stupidity of the people doing the design work. Hopefully it will not be rebuilt, and they can go back to using the high Altar.

    I cannot think of a Gothic, or mediaeval church that had the high altar at the crossing, rather than on the sanctuary behind the Rood... but possibly an example or two exists * , but it is particularly a popular (among a minority) innovation of the last century.

    * please don't count Rood altars they are a special case.
    Thanked by 3CharlesW CHGiffen dad29
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    but it's a highly unreliable source run by people who believe they talk to aliens.


    Anyone looking for aliens can come to my church any Sunday evening. They are illegal aliens caught in our incoherent immigration laws. The heavenly ones visiting earth don't exist, despite what Giorgio Tsoukalos says.
    Thanked by 1Marc Cerisier
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    They were wandering homeless in the desert in the midst of the sand blown about by the wind, and were obstinately determined not to see his City placed upon a hill, which could not be hidden, the House of his Spouse, his Church built upon a rock, and with which he had promised to remain to the end of ages. They built upon the sand wretched tenements, which they were continually pulling down and rebuilding, but in which there was neither altar nor sacrifice; they had weathercocks on their roofs,
    (Or perhaps nests of bees?)
    and their doctrines changed with the wind, consequently they were for ever in opposition one with the other. They never could come to a mutual understanding, and were for ever unsettled, often destroying their own dwellings and hurling the fragments against the Corncr Stone of the Church, which always remained unshaken...

    ...I saw many who believed and taught the doctrine of the Real Presence, but did not sufficiently take it to heart, for they forgot and neglected the palace, throne, and seat of the Living God; that is to say, the church, the altar, the tabernacle, the chalice, the monstrance, the vases and ornaments; in one word, all that is used in his worship, or to adorn his house.

        Entire neglect reigned everywhere, all things were left to moulder away in dust and filth, and the worship of God was, if not inwardly profaned, at least outwardly dishonured. Nor did this arise from real poverty, but from indifference, sloth, preoccupation of mind about vain earthly concerns, and often also from egotism and spiritual death; for I saw neglect of this kind in churches the pastors and congregations of which were rich, or at least tolerably well off. I saw many others in which worldly, tasteless, unsuitable ornaments had replaced the magnificent adornments of a more pious age.
    The diabolical Cranmerian Counterfeit that places itself before the true altar. And even the true altar is desecrated by the removal of the supreme sacrifice, the corpus removed from its gibbet.
    I saw that often the poorest of men were better lodged in their cottages than the Master of heaven and earth in his churches. Ah, how deeply did the inhospitality of men grieve Jesus, who had given himself to them to be their Food! Truly, there is no need to be rich in order to receive him who rewards a hundredfold the glass of cold water given to the thirsty; but how shameful is not our conduct when in giving drink to the Divine Lord, who thirsts for our souls, we give him corrupted water in a filthy glass! In consequence of all this neglect, I saw the weak scandalised, the Adorable Sacrament profaned, the churches deserted, and the priests despised. This state of impurity and negligence extended even to the souls of the faithful, who left the tabernacle of their hearts unprepared and uncleansed when Jesus was about to enter them, exactly the same as they left his tabernacle on the altar.

        Were I to speak for an entire year, I could never detail all the insults offered to Jesus in the Adorable Sacrament which were made known to me in this way. I saw their authors assault Jesus in bands, and strike him with different arms, corresponding to their various offences. I saw irreverent Christians of all ages, careless or sacrilegious priests, crowds of tepid and unworthy communicants, wicked soldiers profaning the sacred vessels, and servants of the devil making use of the Holy Eucharist in the frightful mysteries of hellish worship. Among these bands I saw a great number of theologians, who had been drawn into heresy by their sins, attacking Jesus in the Holy Sacrament of his Church, and snatching out of his Heart, by their seductive words and promises, a number of souls for whom he had shed his blood. Ah! it was indeed an awful sight, for I Saw the Church as the body of Christ; and all these bands of men, who were separating themselves from the Church, mangled and tore off whole pieces of his living flesh. Alas! he looked at them in the most touching manner, and lamented that they should thus cause their own eternal loss. He had given his own divine Self to us for our Food in the Holy Sacrament, in order to unite in one body—that of the Church, his Spouse— men who were to an infinite extent divided and separated from each other; and now he beheld himself torn and rent in twain in that very body; for his principal work of love, the Holy Communion, in which men should have been made wholly one, was become, by the malice of false teachers, the subject of separation. I beheld whole nations thus snatched out of his bosom, and deprived of any participation in the treasure of graces left to the Church. Finally, I saw all who were separated from the Church plunged into the depths of infidelity, superstition, heresy, and false worldly philosophy; and they gave vent to their fierce rage by joining together in large bodies to attack the Church, being urged on by the serpent which was disporting itself in the midst of them. Alas! it was as though Jesus himself had been torn in a thousand pieces!
    from The Dolorous Passion of Our Lord Jesus Christ... a most fitting meditation for our present Triduum and the mystical unfolding of our present moment in history.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Francis, the problem I have with some of this is the denial of the church's authority to revise its liturgy. I may not like what it does, but its authority is legitimate. I think one has to decide whether one is Catholic, or going one's own way. Isn't the definition of Protestantism a refusal to obey the church? These days, you can have the old rite if you prefer it, but that conveys no right to dismiss what the church calls valid.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    Charles

    You are opening questions that would pertain to another thread. This thread has to do with the burning of Notre Dame. These are simply my own observations upon these historical events linked to the writings of Bl. Emmerich. If you have a question about the validity or licit actions within the NO, It might behoove you to read more about it.

    Dr. Kwasniewski has written books on the subject. (Although, I have not read any of them, I have read articles about them including the Dr.s own commentaries.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    There is always that dig against the NO from you. The world is full of ideologues and disgruntled TLM fans. I don't question the validity of the NO. That seems to come from you. And for the record, I am not happy with the state of the church at the moment, either.
    Thanked by 2Elmar Marc Cerisier
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    I said nothing about the validity of the NO.

    So obviously, you are posing the question yourself or you are making false deductions.

    Three things are necessary for validity:

    1 matter
    2 form
    3 intent
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    And they are all present in the NO.

    The diabolical Cranmerian Counterfeit that places itself before the true altar. And even the true altar is desecrated by the removal of the supreme sacrifice, the corpus removed from its gibbet.


    Your words, not mine.

    There is no " diabolical Cranmerian Counterfeit" and when was the supreme sacrifice removed?

    Since we are into conspiracy, the weather has never been the same since those cavemen started shooting those bows and arrows.
    Thanked by 2Elmar Marc Cerisier
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,870
    My words do not speak to validity. I attend the NO every week. Are the requirements of validity always fulfilled? Sometimes the words of consecration are spontaneously changed. We’s eating crackers. Does that abuse ever occur in the intent of a priest celebrating a TLM?

    Matter, form and intent are sometimes subject to abuse in the NO. It is rare if ever at all in the TLM. I would wager that intent is the tipping scale between the two.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Now that's interesting. Those words of consecration in the current Roman Missal should never be changed by anyone. I am not aware that anyone has that authority.

    Just curiosity, but is there no TLM available in your area?

    We had a NO last night with Eucharistic Prayer I, which is the old Roman Canon.

    On the Cranmerian idea, I was alive at the time of Vatican II. What is in the revised liturgy more likely came from Germany and The Netherlands, not England. Those were the leading theologians active at the council.
    Thanked by 1Elmar