Paris Notre Dame fire
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    It is confirmed the three roses are still there. The organ didn't get any fire damage but, as it seems, suffered from the water.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    We can be very grateful that Viollet-le-duc's 19th century fleche for the cathedral was not of stone - the collapse of a stone spire would have caused much more damage. There have been many great medieval buildings that have been restored after much worse. The engineers of 800 years ago designed these buildings with such disasters in mind. Let those who have ears take heed.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    It looks like the money will be available to rebuild the structure. Now if there were only a way to restore the faith that built the building originally.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    This from AP: " Paris officials said the world famous 18th century organ that boasts 8,000 pipes also appeared to have survived, along with other treasures inside the cathedral, after a plan to safeguard heritage was quickly put into action."
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    "The organ didn't get any fire damage but, as it seems, suffered from the water."

    Bombing the building with water from the air would have been one sure way to demolish it - saturating the furnaced stones would crack them more.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Water is not good, but we still don't know how much damage was done. Water isn't good for organs, either. I suspect they would have to go into conservator mode and get the instrument removed for stabilization and repair. What I am reading states the actual fire damage was above the vault. I hope that is true, and later investigations may prove otherwise. I am hoping for the best.

    After years of work with a government agency that was building nuclear plants at the time, I have difficulty understanding why an adequate fire protection plan was not in place during the restoration work. That fire should not have progressed beyond a small fire easily extinguished.
  • Chers enfants de la France, regardez votre Mere.

    Chere Notre Dame de Paris, regardes tes enfants.
    Thanked by 1CHGiffen
  • CharlesW, agreed. In the Navy, I stood any number of "fire" watches, armed with extinguisher and sound-powered phone while repair work - not LIKELY to cause fire but POSSIBLE to cause fire took place. SOP for industrial settings. If these precautions were not followed, could have been someone deciding to cut costs. But I was amazed that the fire had spread to the extent it did before it appeared any real response was in place.

    Of course, we still don't have a known cause for the fire. Speculation has centered on either something connected to the restoration work being done or that the fire was deliberately set.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    There was no extinguisher system in the attic.

    If the fire were deliberate, it was done in a place where - given the very way it was engineered centuries ago - it was least likely to fatally compromise the entire structure. above - lightning - very much was.)
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    True. It looks like common fire prevention strategies were not followed. I have read there was a water tank between the towers, so the report said, to provide water for such emergencies during construction. Something in all this doesn't add up. Ditto on the response which seemed far too slow.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    Before one attacks that as being per se negligent - understand that introducing fluid pipes above the stone structure carries its own set of risks, and it's the French state that bore responsibility for assessing the risks. These buildings were purpose-built to survive roof fires of this magnitude. It's sad for people attached to a relatively short-term time reference, but the builders of this and of similar buildings thought for the very long term.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Folks forget that those churches are state owned, which has both a good and bad side. the bad is the general inefficiency and slowness of government in active management. The good is the Vatican II "renovators" couldn't damage the interior.

    An interesting article on how the relics and other treasures were saved.

    https://www.breitbart.com/europe/2019/04/16/notre-dame-treasures-relics-saved-firefighter-priest-human-chain-burning-cathedral/?fbclid=IwAR1CrWzA8pZ-U_M6PVNtyWp2e4XhjPPOrcjTjs_HuH8Dg2CGCZdWVC5ErHo
  • Just saw this statement from Vincent Dubois, one of the titulars at Notre Dame. The only source I've found for the English is an FB page (https://www.facebook.com/OrgansnMusic/), but also corroborated here in French: https://www.lalettredumusicien.fr/s/articles/6024_0_vincent-dubois-le-grand-orgue-de-notre-dame-de-paris-est-un-miracule

    A statement from, Vincent Dubois, one of the three organiste titulairs at Notre Dame de Paris.

    "Contrary to the rumors that circulated early this morning, the great organ is, a priori, saved. There are a few puddles on the left and right, but nothing dramatic. The case would be spared, as well as the pipe work... It's miraculous. We were in contact all night with my colleagues Olivier Latry and Philippe Lefebvre and we no longer believed in it. The stone roof slab that connects the two towers saved the instrument: there is no frame there from the roof, so the water sent by the fire brigade flowed on either side and did not fall on the organ loft. On the other hand, if the vaults of the nave, very weakened, are not quickly consolidated, it will probably be necessary to dismantle the organ and find a workshop large enough to shelter it. There is no such system in the Paris region. The challenge is to know very quickly whether the keystones will withstand the weight of the water and molten lead that has been poured into them. The choir organ did not burn either, but it did take on water completely. We'll have to see what's left of it... It'll take years before we can play this instrument again, but the most important thing was that it didn't end up in ashes. We will be patient and mobilize for its rehabilitation, once it has been closely examined."


    French:

    « Contrairement aux rumeurs qui ont circulé tôt ce matin, le grand orgue est, a priori, sauvé. Il a quelques flaques d’eau à gauche et à droite, mais rien de dramatique. Le buffet serait épargné, ainsi que la tuyauterie… C’est miraculeux. Nous étions en contact toute la nuit avec mes collègues Olivier Latry et Philippe Lefebvre et nous n’y croyions plus. C’est la dalle de couverture en pierre qui relie les deux tours qui a sauvé l’instrument : il n’y a pas de charpente à cet endroit-là du toit : l’eau envoyée par les pompiers a donc coulé de part et d’autre et n’est pas tombée sur la tribune de l’orgue. En revanche, si les voûtes de la nef, très fragilisées, ne sont pas rapidement consolidées, il faudra probablement démonter l’orgue et trouver un atelier assez grand pour le mettre à l’abri. Il n’en existe pas de tel en région parisienne. Tout l’enjeu est de savoir, très vite, si les clés de voûte vont résister au poids de l’eau et du plomb fondu qui s’y est déversé. L’orgue de chœur n’a pas brûlé non plus, mais il a, en revanche, totalement pris l’eau. Il faudra voir ce qu’il en reste… Il faudra attendre des années avant de pouvoir rejouer cet instrument, mais l’essentiel était qu’il ne finisse pas en cendres. Nous prendrons notre mal en patience et nous nous mobiliserons pour sa remise en état, une fois qu’il aura pu être examiné de près. »
  • A friend of mine passed along a French article quoting Vincent Dubois who indicates that it has escaped largely unscathed. This seems to be due to the unusual manner in which it is nestled back between the towers behind the major columns of the towers themselves. There is only stone work above the organ—no wood there. VD indicates it seems there is some water damage but even most of the water was directed away to the sides of the instrument. The article mentions it is safe a priori however, so I don't gather that he's actually been up to the loft; but if anyone has been briefed of the state of the instrument, it would be him or OL so I trust the info.

    Photos have also shown (and a French official announced) that the three large "rosaces" all survived. Honestly, I was much more worried about the rose windows than the organ which is more easily replaceable.

    Most of the vaulting survived excepting where the spire fell through and a portion of the transept. The high altar survived unscathed (although as a friend quipped: it is unfortunate that the spire didn't fall on that awful modernist altar in the middle of the church and destroy it).
  • ha. beat me to it.
    Thanked by 1mmeladirectress
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 8,329
    The organ may have suffeted water damage but was not burned:
    https://www.bfmtv.com/culture/notre-dame-de-paris-les-vitraux-des-rosaces-intacts-l-orgue-epargne-par-les-flammes-1674129.html
    Also, the rose windows were spared.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    As I hear, the organ and at least one of the roses will probably have to be taken down for restoration work. Besides, the vault needs a thorough consolidation.

    As for the accusations of neglect : actually most of the French heritage is in a state of neglect, and Notre-Dame was not the worst by far, especially in Paris. The heritage here has not been a political priority since years, which means there was little money to care for and restore the monuments.

    Besides, the French regulations about construction works are all about human safety (which is a very good thing). They don't address specific problems for historical monuments, such as conservation. That means the cathedral could be (and has been) evacuated very quickly (in less than two minutes there wasn't anyone left in there), but there wasn't much things to prevent damage to the building.

    Art historians and curators had warned for years that a major fire drama would finally happen : well, now it has, and it doesn't look like it is going to change anything.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    An aerial shot from today showing how the stone vaults largely performed their (initial) work. The extent to which heat and water may have compromised the stonework remains to be determined, of course. But 21st century firefighters and 12th/13th century engineers and laborers did their jobs. May our Lord, through the intercession of our Lady of Paris, bless the work of those who have work to do in turn.

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D4SD6U-W4AcbsQd.jpg
  • Not sure if this is wanted or helpful. But Father Bartus sent this yesterday:

    To the Faithful in the Ordinariate in Southern California,
    I write as the Notre Dame in Paris burns. This past year we have seen a renewal of the destruction of our faith and morals. Whatever immediate cause of the fire at the cathedral in Paris, the metaphysical indictment is clear: we have lost our collective soul. Fundamentalist Secularists and militant Muslims alike are openly celebrating the fire. The majority does lament the loss of an important cultural landmark, but only a small faithful Catholic remnant sung the Ave Maria while watching it burn.
    This comes on the heels of a second wave of clerical abuse and a disproportional response from the Catholic hierarchy. It comes on the heels of a Church currently having many who are teaching anything other than the full faith. It comes on the heels of a new rise of agnosticism and atheism among the younger generations.
    The words of my godfather, Charles Coulombe, ring true:
    “Against all of that evil and the temptation to despair, I can only offer in the public sphere: Altar, Throne, Hearth and Cottage, Subsidiarity and Solidarity; and in the private sphere prayer and the Sacraments, nostalgia and good humour, friendship and travel, fine food and wine, and music and video. Those are our weapons, my friends, with which to respond to the shrieking legions of the night. As J.R.R. Tolkien wrote: ‘There, peeping among the cloud- wrack above a dark tor high up in the mountains, Sam saw a white star twinkle for a while. The beauty of it smote his heart, as he looked up out of the forsaken land, and hope returned to him. For like a shaft, clear and cold, the thought pierced him that in the end the Shadow was only a small and passing thing: there was light and high beauty for ever beyond its reach.’"
    I have heard that, while sad, this is just a building, and it can be rebuilt. While true, the theology behind its original construction, and the craftsmanship, which it inspired, is long lost among most. Not only is it lost, it is distorted. I pray that near- perfect replication can occur, but a church – especially a cathedral – is not “just a building.” It is a holy house; it is a temple of God. We as Catholics understand that the physical is to be sanctified by God’s grace. Grace perfects nature. Yes, the French State owned the property, stolen from the Church. Yes, there were very few of the French who would faithfully worship in it. But even if there were none, it is sacred, much more than a mere cultural landmark. As Our Lord himself said, “I tell you, if [my disciples] were silent, the very stones would cry out (Lk. 10:40).”
    1
    The allusion to The Lord of the Rings is truer in our day than even Tolkien’s. Indeed, the Notre Dame lasted through the evil of the French Revolution and Napoleon. It lasted through two world wars. But it has not lasted our more “quiet” (Post)modern Revolution. This is a revolution against the family, against the Church herself, and against truth itself. Today’s travesty is symptomatic of the moral and spiritual collapse. It could have been accidental, it could have been workers not taking proper care or protestors in the area not caring, or it could have been an act of sabotage; whatever the direct reason, it did not happen in previous ages. It happened in ours. Let that sink in.
    There has been no new scientific (empirical) or philosophical discovery that has revealed theism, the Natural Law, or much less Catholicism, as false. Rather, what we are seeing is a widespread abandon of these things in favor of selfish passions; without robust education about the truth, our friends, family, and co-workers are abandoning reason itself; we are seen increasingly as backwards, medieval, and intolerant, and the Catholic faith and Church are hated more and more, by both people within and without. This is indicative of this spiritual crisis, just as the burning of the Notre Dame is symbolic of it. The crisis ultimately stems from disbelief, of whatever degree, in God and a selfish indulgence of the passions and a forsaking of the virtues. Reason itself erodes eventually.
    But heed these words by Prof. Robert George: “Fire destroys. But fire also purifies and renews. Our faith and our civilization are desperately in need of purification and renewal. Let it begin.” In the words of St. Paul, “For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. (Eph. 6:12).”
    This is Monday in Holy Week. We still have the rest of the Week to go (let the reader understand; cf. Mk 13:14; Dn. 9:27). Good Friday may be coming, but so is Easter Sunday!
    Je vous salue, Marie pleine de grâce;
    le Seigneur est avec vous.
    Vous êtes bénie entre toutes les femmes et Jésus, le fruit de vos entrailles, est béni.
    Sainte Marie, Mère de Dieu,
    priez pour nous pauvres pécheurs, maintenant et à l’heure de notre mort.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 827
    After years of work with a government agency that was building nuclear plants at the time, I have difficulty understanding why an adequate fire protection plan was not in place during the restoration work. That fire should not have progressed beyond a small fire easily extinguished.


    It probably was, and it may not have made a difference. The newest wood there is over a hundred years old. Most of the wood was original to the structure. The wood was very dry, like tinder. We had a similar occurrence here in Nacogdoches. International Paper had an all-wood plywood plant here (at the time it was the either the first or second largest all-wood structure in the world). A welder was working in the building, following the safety practices, and a spark jumped up in the beams. In minutes, the building was aflame. It was a total loss. The fire department stated that if they had been there when it started, they could not have saved the building.

    Old, dry wood ignites easily flames spread quickly. It is truly a miracle that anything is still standing.
  • >> It is truly a miracle that anything is still standing.

    Yes and that the relics were apparently saved.

    I was thinking about the relics. How the French put the relics of Sts. Denis and Genevieve into the spire to protect the church. And I thought, yet it burned.
    well it did; but not all of it did; not by a long shot. I don't think it's out of line to believe that they had a hand in that.
  • A note from Olivier Latry, Titular Organist at Notre Dame:

    Dear all,

    In these tragic moments for the Cathedral, you have been extremely numerous to send kind words of support, all more moving than the others, either by e-mail, SMS, FaceBook, Instagram or on the phone.

    I will never thank you enough for that. I would have liked to respond personally to each of you, but given the urgency of the situation, it is unfortunately not possible for me, at least for the moment. I hope you’ll understand.

    Notre-Dame, who had resisted revolutions and wars, burned in a few moments. 855 years destroyed in four hours ... Like you, I feel terribly sad, with contained rage, total sorrow. The images that we have seen are horrible. How not to think that we are in a bad dream? Reality comes back to us, unfortunately.

    Despite all the damage in the Cathedral, the organ miraculously escaped the flames, as well as the water supposed to extinguish them. It is very dusty, but will continue to enjoy us as soon as the building will be restored. When? No one knows yet. « Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. » (John, 2). It will surely take more time in Notre-Dame, but I still live with great confidence and hope.

    With warmest regards.

    Olivier Latry
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Old, dry wood ignites easily flames spread quickly. It is truly a miracle that anything is still standing.


    Agreed on that. I remember being told years ago that if our WWII era Army barracks caught fire, we better be out in 30 seconds if we wanted to survive. However, newer fire retardants are pretty effective and it might be worth the cost to treat exposed wood during a major renovation. Who knows, maybe they will.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    I suspect they will explore less flammable materials. If this had happened in, say, 1870, someone might have considered cast iron - but it is also flammable. The thing is, unless they had decided to remove the roof - which would have raised all sorts of problems - they could not have replaced the material. So, this disaster is an opportunity to conserve for the VERY long-term that might not otherwise have been provided.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    True. I have wondered about replacing lead roofing given environmental concerns. Newer materials would take considerable weight off the structure.
  • someone might have considered cast iron - but it is also flammable


    ?
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    Heard today that the fire department was there twice: once very shortly after an alarm was sounded--they could not see a fire and left; the second time following another alarm--but it took a while to get there due to rush-hour traffic. Sheesh.

    By the way: According to the French police, 875 of France's 42,258 churches were vandalized in 2018. The French government blames this on 'aggressive secularism.' OK, then.
    Thanked by 1ElizabethBoydston
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    Noel

    I should have said "not fire resistant". The Victorians learned that cast iron structures could fail in major fires.
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    After the roof of Rheims Cathedral burned for the second time in WW1, it first burnt in 1481, the new roof was built with iron. Also the roof of Chartres (rebuilt 1837) is also iron. Also most of the roof of Notre Dame, had been replaced in the 19th Century, when a new improved spire was added.

    Iron was famously used, with brick in the fire proof warehouses. Iron is strong in compression, but weak in tension, so stress induced by heating can cause problems, but that is true of steel!
  • I am happiest that the roses and the other windows survived. It is good that the organ seems to have suffered relatively little damage. While, of course, we couldn't replace the Cavallais-Coll, we do have builders who could have built a new instrument of appropriate quality. The windows, though, could never have been replaced. Though we have excellent stained glass artists today, even their glass is not of XIIth century quality.
    As it is, though, we may rejoice that the glass and the organ survived, as did the structure itself - except for relatively small portions of the vault.
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,863
    @MJO I am not sure that the glass or at least all the glass is original, some news sites have mentioned 'restoration'... Viollet-le-Duc...

    N.B. I have seen some of Viollet-le-duc's work and intend to see some more during the summer, it is all very nice, but is is restoration? With Le-duc, it seems more about what he imagined it should be, in his case I do not mind as he had in my opinion, good taste.
  • You are right about Viollet-le-Duc. He and Pugin would have made a good team. With both of them it was a matter more of a highly romanticised, idealised Gothic rather than what we would call today 'authentic'. I don't know, though, about the glass - how much of the original glass remained when Viollet did his 'restoration'. You are right again, though: what both of them lacked in 'authenticity' they made up for in taste (most of the time)!
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen JL
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Stained glass is not a lost art. In my own parish we have glass that was installed in the mid 1920s by the Tyrolese Art Glass Company of Innsbruck, Austria. They are still in business and have built some incredibly beautiful windows. There are other companies who also do good work. I would hope as much of the Notre Dame glass as possible could be saved. Quality companies still exist and those windows can be repaired.
  • Deleted - duplicate

    (Noel Jones posted the article above - forgot where I had seen it and was posting same article. Very well-written - thanks, Noel, for posting it!!)
    Thanked by 1noel jones, aago
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    A re-reconsideration of Viollet-le-duc's work:

    http://www.victorianweb.org/art/architecture/vld/3.html
    Thanked by 3tomjaw CHGiffen BruceL
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    We have pretty good "maîtres verriers" here in France, so replacing the lost stained glass is not really a problem. Did you know the last stained glass window in Chartres cathedral has been made in 2008 ? And there is a beautiful story about it.

    However, one of the roses hasn't undergone any major restoration since the 13th century, and the two others are still mainly 13th century stained glass, so I'm still relieved they're safe ! Now they will need to be put down and thoroughly cleaned and checked for any lead trouble.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW BruceL
  • All things considered, this was as merciful of a situation as anyone could have hoped for. Organ survived, Windows survived, art works and relics were saved, building didn't collapse, a billion (with a B!) has been donated to rebuild, and most importantly: not one soul died. All things considered, it is a tremendous relief. No one knows the mind of God, but with all things, He is already actively redeeming the situation. Deo gratias!
    Thanked by 2CHGiffen BruceL
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 2,118
    Not sure if this is wanted or helpful. But Father Bartus

    It is helpful to be reminded that some of our neighbors have to live in fear of calumny; here's one of several general surveys of the hoaxes.
    Thanked by 1JL
  • France has mostly lost the Faith because of the Novus Ordo. What are they rebuilding it for?
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    France lost the faith long before anyone even thought of the Novus Ordo. Give me a break!
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    It is helpful to be reminded that some of our neighbors have to live in fear of calumny; here's one of several general surveys of the hoaxes.


    I am no fan of Islam, but this one can't be blamed on the Muslims. Although it is safe to say some of them would like to see it and anything associated with Christianity destroyed. This appears to be more the initial response of the fire department which found nothing. When called after flames erupted, it took an hour for the firefighters to get there and with the wrong truck for fighting such a fire. In effect, the fire raged out of control for a couple of hours before the fire department got people and equipment in place to start extinguishing the blaze. No Muslims this time.
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,908
    No Muslims this time.


    So far. It takes more than 20 minutes to determine the cause of a fire. We will ALL be happy if that is the final official ruling after due diligence. We're not there yet.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    There really isn't any need to blame it on any intentional fire. Everyone working in the field of heritage curation (I had several internships in that field) knew such a drama would happen one day, because of neglect and lack of proper regulations. Most historic monuments in France have electric systems dating back from decades ; the Palais Matignon (office of the Prime Minister) was nearly burnt to ashes some years ago because the electric wires hadn't been changed since the 1930's, and as I am speaking, fire could happen anytime in most of Paris' churches (including La Madeleine, Saint-Augustin...).

    Now you can blame a huge deal of this neglect on the part of secularism, because that is a truth: in France, cathedrals are state-owned and other churches are property of the towns, and some mayors just don't want to spend any money on churches.

    But there is really no need to create a conspiracy involving muslims. They are mourning, just as everyone here is.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 10,515
    Much of Europe and the United States is in need of conversion. We are all, if not mission territory, too close for comfort. I don't look to the Vatican or any conferences of bishops for a solution.

    France isn't the only country that neglects its monuments. It is always easy to put the money available on other projects.
  • But there is really no need to create a conspiracy involving muslims. They are mourning, just as everyone here is.


    I don't think any of the posts I've read on this thread are doing any more than suggest the possibility that could be the case... and it is just as dangerous to dismiss that out of hand as it would be to dismiss the possibility that it is connected to the restoration effort.

    It is not unprecedented that attacks with some religious motive would be covered up either by politicians or by "journalists"... particularly in France in 2018. The excellent article posted by Noel, above, makes the point that such attacks on Catholics in particular and Christians in general in France have been grossly under-reported in the past year... just as we saw that sexual assaults perpetrated by immigrants in Germany were under-reported and dismissed through political motivation.

    Breitbart and WND - two news-sites at the conservative end of the spectrum - have both published stories showing (via social media and pictures from France), people who have been rejoicing in the news of Notre Dame burning. Clearly, not everyone is mourning.

    None of this is proof that this was not an accident. All I'm suggesting is that it is silly - because of some PC notion, or because of human respect - to ignore facts that may support a different perspective of the origin of the fire by dismissing it as "conspiracy theory".

    I wouldn't say with any certitude that the cause was deliberate. I also wouldn't say with any certitude that the cause was accidental, although the initial reports indicate that they are investigating it from the perspective of an accident. We have no certitude of ANYTHING at this point. Investigations take time and we shouldn't be making pronouncements from either end of the spectrum until there is more data.
  • What of the video that captured a single strangely dressed man running along the out side upper most area of one of the bell towers just as the fire began to appear from the outside of the spire? Supposedly, the cathedral had been closed, there were no crew around, all equipment had been properly stored away, the restoration team are extremely highly specialized and certified, the cathedral staff had gone, no one in the cathedral. YET this lone strangely dressed man is running along the outside upper area of one bell towers. Something is odd here and begs investigation. I've seen this video clip and it is very curious.
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • IdeK
    Posts: 79
    The firefighters have certified the "strange man" is one of them.
  • Liam
    Posts: 4,079
    If we're going to indulge equivalencies as something required, we'd also have to require the indulgence of that of an anti-Islamic false-flag operation....
    Thanked by 1francis
  • IdeK - thank you for setting that straight! Although, the puzzle in my mind is that supposedly the "strange man" was recorded before any firefighters had arrived on the scene. hmmm?

    I am also entertaining curious thoughts about recent past events of desecrations in France coupled with strange substances in Holy Water fonts. I am not implying anything, and certainly hope I do not come across that way. I am just curious and thoughtfully concerned.