Paris Notre Dame fire
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,573
    Thanked by 1Incardination
  • MarkB
    Posts: 193
    There has been a surge of anti-Church, anti-Christian vandalism in France. This too? Too soon to know, probably.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    Premature to speculate. Major renovation work was ongoing, with scaffolding of roof area.
  • French media are currently reporting that the theory is it was construction related as the roof / spire were being worked on.

    I'm shaking. This is, as one friend of mine put it, "just like 911. You can't even comprehend what you're seeing... tragic, and yet it's not a movie." My sentiments exactly.

    The organ was just restored this past year. The crown of thorns was kept there... those beautiful tremendous rose windows... all gone. I'm just heartbroken.
  • bhcordovabhcordova
    Posts: 647
    The spire is gone. One of the churchmen has stated that 'its all on fire, nothing will be left'.
  • My heart sunk. This is our french history, civilization disappearing. I can only sit and weep... Super flumina Parisis, illic sedimus et flevimus... How can such an incredible beauty just burn and disappear...
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,784
    A great loss, but Notre Dame instead of disappearing will no doubt once again stand as an example of the restorer's art alongside Rheims, Aachen, Cologne and the rest. Possibly the relics were in storage, as one hears of Viollet-le-Duc's portrait as Thomas the Apostle.

    I was surprised reading a newspaper's inner pages the other week that church arson in Louisiana wasn't something that ended in the 90's, as many of us had assumed.
    Thanked by 1cesarfranck
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    Just to note: the giant rose windows are below the vault level: the smaller rose windows are attic windows for the space between the vault and the much higher roof.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,890
    I was at the gym watching TV while on a treadmill. They said they thought the fire started from construction. It was a small fire but grew out of control. It didn't appear the firefighting efforts were well coordinated or effective. I hope the relics survived. The organ, while magnificent, has been tampered with enough over the years it sounded more like a large American church organ. Still, a great loss.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,132
    “The liturgy that built the building has been banished, so it seems only logical that the building itself would be demolished, too.“ 1P5
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  • The rose windows, according to MSNBC commentators, seem to be lost. They were among the oldest and most valued treasures of the building. As Bishop Baron said, St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Bonaventure would have known them.
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,890
    The latest I heard a few moments ago, the artwork and treasures have been saved. I hope that is the case. The reporters didn't elaborate.
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,573
    Youtube channel KTOTV
    Holy Week Monday
    Vespers preceding fire

    https://youtu.be/xLBF0Zb8Bs4
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,411
    Looking at recent photographs / films the fire seems to be above the vaulting... and all the lower windows look to be intact and no firelight seems to be coming from the inside.

    I wonder how strong the vaulting is... Have been to Rheims, and that was bombed WWI and some of the vaulting was broken and the roof burnt, It now has an iron roof frame above the vaulting.
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • m_r_taylor
    Posts: 46
    Hopefully this tweet is true - according to it the artwork and treasures incl. the Crown of Thorns have been rescued, the poster said his source was the pastor. https://twitter.com/KoliaDelesalle/status/1117865987670364160?fbclid=IwAR25XEq2hFKLzC2csFPp4v5yPxskk3EA3r6w2Q52RNzMjsJ4zs4nzlpBoPQ
    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    Le Figaro announces the structure has been saved. The aerial shot tonight shows the burning timbers and molten metal atop the stone vault of the essential structure - the very purpose of that strong pointed Gothic vaulting. Let us hope that remains true. http://www.lefigaro.fr/.../01016-20190415LIVWWW00055-en...
    1000 x 562 - 67K
  • Direct in France... The treasure is safe, the relics are safe. There seem to be a hole in the vault where the spire drope. The vaults above the great roses are still standing, and the general structure of the building is safe. but the structure of the roses making the details is made of lead, and this easily melts...
    Thanked by 1eft94530
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    The rector of the cathedral and several other priests have said the Crown of Thorns and the Tunic of St. Louis, the two major relics, have been saved. It is said, too, that the Blessed Sacrament has been put to safety.

    No one was killed, the tourists and pilgrims had left just before the beginning of the fire.

    It was feared that the fire would take the towers, especially the northern one. Had they collapsed, the whole building would have been taken down. The firemen announced this is not to be feared anymore.

    There is still lot of fear for the stained glass, especially the roses, and everything that was inside the building.
    Thanked by 2eft94530 cesarfranck
  • eft94530eft94530
    Posts: 1,573
    What about the pipe organ?

    In the Belly of the Organ at Notre Dame
    (Documentary?)

    Olivier Latry titulaire organist

    https://youtu.be/h2274S1vMaE
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    We don't know yet. We'll see in the morning (It's 23:45 here). There is still lots of work for the firefighter.

    We can see on the twitter account of the Culture Minister images of evacuated artworks put into trucks, to be carried away to safety. There is at least one of the great candlesticks of the altar, I think.

    I'm so shocked, it's really the ecclesia mater for me. I know people who've been baptized or confirmed here, I've received so many times the sacrament of Reconciliation (it's a parisian hotspot for confession). Even my non-catholic friends went there to put a candle to Notre-Dame des Etudiants before our exams, I hope she has not suffered too much.
  • I can't believe that Francis said what he said.

    I had thought that the crown of thorns was in the Sainte-Chapelle - which was built just for it.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    Another historical perspective: an even older and more venerable church burned down in 1823. The major basilica of S Paolo fuori le mura in Rome:

    https://www.romeartlover.it/Vas100ah.jpg.

    It was rebuilt.
  • MarkB
    Posts: 193
    Francis was quoting Peter Skojec at 1Peter5, in the article linked to above, and Peter was passing on that comment as having come from a friend of his.
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    It was an impoverished metaphor. One might say recursive.
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,890
    “The liturgy that built the building has been banished, so it seems only logical that the building itself would be demolished, too.“


    Kind of absurd. The Tridentine mass did not build that building. It wasn't codified and standardized until several centuries after the building was built.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    The crown of thorns is in Notre Dame since the French Revolution. It is kept there by the Knights of the Holy Sepulchre.

    The Sainte Chapelle is nearly desecrated now. I understand there is only one or two masses a year there.

    We have several burnt and rebuilt cathedrals here in France : Reims, Soissons, Verdun, Metz...

    As said President Macron : "Nous rebâtirons Notre-Dame".
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,686
    Surprised that no one here mentioned the fire which gutted St Sulpice a couple of weeks ago....
  • Liam
    Posts: 3,687
    I am not at all surprised. People had the wisdom to resist imprudent speculation.
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,132
    This
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,132
    More food for thought:

    “France, Italy, Spain, and England will be at war. Blood will flow in the streets. Frenchman will fight Frenchman, Italian will fight Italian. A general war will follow which will be appalling. For a time, God will cease to remember France and Italy because the Gospel of Jesus Christ has been forgotten. The wicked will make use of all their evil ways. Men will kill each other; massacre each other even in their homes.

    At the first blow of His thundering sword, the mountains and all Nature will tremble in terror, for the disorders and crimes of men have pierced the vault of the heavens. Paris will burn and Marseilles will be engulfed. Several cities will be shaken down and swallowed up by earthquakes. People will believe that all is lost. Nothing will be seen but murder, nothing will be heard but the clash of arms and blasphemy.”

    Our Lady of La Salette
  • CharlesW
    Posts: 9,890
    Didn't she also warn us there would be two worm-ridden popes?

    Francis, what is a good source of the La Salette prophecies? There are too many made up and added to books and pamphlets out there. Where to find an authentic translation?
    Thanked by 1NihilNominis
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,489
    You know, the Institute of Christ the King is really good at fundraising and restoring churches damaged by fire. And they’re French Canons, so they’d know how to run the place. JUST SAYIN’.
    Thanked by 1tomjaw
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,686
    Why, yes, indeed, Stimson. $$ICK$$ have replaced the Jesuits in fund-raising proficiency. And such lovely blue cassocks for the altar boys!
  • dad29
    Posts: 1,686
    Liam, there's PRUDENT speculation and there's IMPRUDENT speculation. I speculate, prudently, that there is prudent speculation.

    And there's a lot of damage at St Sulpice, Notre Dame, a dead French priest, and several other French Catholic churches which have been attacked/vandalize. None of that is speculation, my friend.
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,784
    Surprised that no one here mentioned
    Could that be because Saint-Suplice was not in fact "gutted"?
  • chonakchonak
    Posts: 7,679
    Television coverage of the fire and its aftermath is on the net at https://www.france24.com/en/ .
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,784
    France-24 is also carried by our local PBS channel 60.2 and has had welcome continuous coverage. But in case anyone needs a reminder not to believe everything one hears, a couple of minutes ago the newscaster said "the fire broke out on the first day of Easter Celebrations".
  • francisfrancis
    Posts: 8,132
    Charles

    Much of the controversy is caused by modernists to discredit and defame the secret.

    Here is an interesting article:

    https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/index.php/articles/item/952-will-rome-lose-the-faith-la-salette-revisited

    All I can say is what good is a warning if we always hold it in contempt until it has been fulfilled? Shall we then say, “it may have been the devil, so I waited to be sure!” Or,

    “This man casteth not out devils but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

    And Jesus knowing their thoughts, said to them: Every kingdom divided against itself shall be made desolate: and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand.

    And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself: how then shall his kingdom stand?

    And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? Therefore they shall be your judges.

    But if I by the Spirit of God cast out devils, then is the kingdom of God come upon you.”


    Paris has been burning more and more.

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.rt.com/news/456629-french-catholic-churches-attacks/amp/

    Today Notre Dame falls in flames.

    Heaven will not fault us for being overzealous unto repentance, but we may suffer hell should we procrastinate concerning warnings that came from heaven left unheeded.

    What shall we believe, and how shall we act?

    Penance. Penance. Penance.

    Thanked by 1CharlesW
  • Richard MixRichard Mix
    Posts: 1,784
    Penance has much to commend it; watching yesterday's Office of Readings (linked by Eft) being sung into the microphone I fell prey to the sinful thought first expressed by Francis. But to continue 'teaching the controversy', CharlesW makes an excellent point above: if God loved sequences as much as I like to think he does, there would have been many more lighting strikes after Trent than the historical record records.
    Thanked by 2CharlesW CHGiffen
  • Kathy
    Posts: 4,997
    My strongest feeling at this point is relief, that she stands, and that the greatest treasures have been saved.

    Those windows tho....
  • Stones, bronze, wood, and lead roofing can all be reproduced (at great cost and if they have photographs of every square inch), but the stained glass cannot. We do have some very excellent stained glass craftsmen today, but even their glass is not of twelfth century quality. We have lost that technology.

    Though the authorities have said that the structure has been saved, they didn't say whether the vaulting was intact. I can't imagine that spire's weight (50 tons?) not crashing through the vaulting. I hope that it didn't.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    I have seen photographs of the southern rose, from the outside and the inside. It is still there, even though it must have suffered form heat and dirt.
    Thanked by 1M. Jackson Osborn
  • One of the news sources said that a French billionaire had already pledged one hundred million dollars (euros?) to the cause. I'm sending my pitiful token contribution to the French consul general tomorrow. Is it possible for our CMAA Forum to take up a collection?
    Thanked by 2tomjaw CHGiffen
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,411
    L’orgue de #Notre_dame_de_Paris serait en bon état, dit le 1er adjoint au maire de Paris.


    The Organ appears to be o.k.
  • ...serait en bon etat...
    If the organ is intact it would be a miracle indeed.
    One would have assumed that the pipes,
    if not totally consumed by fire, would have melted from the heat -
    not to mention smoke and water damage.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    It seems the inside photograph I have seen is in fact the northern rose, saved too. The Virgin of the pillar and my beloved Virgin of the students both seem to be still there (from photographs).
  • tomjaw
    Posts: 1,411
    The fire seems to have been mainly above the vault, and so as heat rises and does not conduct through stone very well, most things below the vault should be fine. I have seen a picture showing part of the nave vault broken through and a pile of burning wreckage in the centre of the nave, but this has missed the pulpit. The Cranmer table at the crossing also seems to be o.k. and the vault looked to be intact above it. The sanctuary seems to have an intact vault, and so should be fine.
  • IdeK
    Posts: 44
    The ministry for culture announced that the organ seems to have suffered, but it's too early to evaluate the gravity.
  • a_f_hawkins
    Posts: 1,302
    If the roof vault is largely intact, but developed some holes, water damage is likely to be the worst problem for the organs. A lot of water from the fire hoses is likely to have got into the nave, some of it hot.
    At best the organ will have been exposed to a humid tropical environment for hours, and it will stay humid for weeks. Apart from fire, the experience may have been akin to leaving it outside in a tropical rainstorm.