What would more active participation in the EF be like?
  • dad29
    Posts: 2,217
    CG-Z; that 'moving feasts' thing has to do with another (earlier) event here. Actually went to an obscure book in the Marquette U library to research the thing and found that it was not allowed.

    Used the reference because it fits a pattern....
  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    As to the High Mass which (may) suffer the same circumstances to exist, I have the sense that the silence is not uniform, for it may betoken several things at the same time.


    Don't get me wrong. Silence is important to Mass (even High) as well as to the spiritual life in general. And we don't get near enough of it as is. But Card. Sarah (if memory serves) mentions in his book on this topic that the silence of the liturgy should help foster its music; and vice versa. The contemplativeness of silence should be the "echo chamber", of sorts, where the words we have sung has a chance to resonate in our apprehension so that we may "ponder these things in our heart".

    But let me ask this - and this isn't a rhetorical question - who here would rather have the problem of having a silent congregation as opposed to, shall we say, a rambunctious congregation?
  • JulieCollJulieColl
    Posts: 2,465
    I'll take the rambunctious one any day. It's like having kids. The big talkers are much easier to talk with and help, while the taciturn ones can be difficult to reach.
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  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Hmmm... I'm not sure I see either one as a "problem". I think it is more about what works for the given parish.

    In terms of identity, I probably identify more closely with the silent approach on a personal level. When I'm in the pews, I don't typically sing although that's not a hard and fast rule that I follow.

    During our summers where the choir is off (July and August and first part of September), there still is a sung Mass. In those situations I've specifically asked choir members (who aren't allowed in the loft - it's their break and I want them to take it) to sing the Ordinary - IF THEY FEEL SO INCLINED - from the pews to help encourage the congregation. We use Mass VIII and Credo I for one half of the summer and Mass XI and Credo III for the other half. The organist and I sing the Mass from the loft along with whatever happens in the pews. I also ask Father to encourage the congregation to sing during those Masses by mentioning it from the pulpit. Mass VIII and XI are both in the congregational hymnal and are marked on the hymn board before Mass.

    This summer, we'll use a slightly different approach. Someone who isn't in the choir and I will sing alternating the Ordinary from opposing sides of the sanctuary (i.e. vested in cassock / surplice) and the organist will simply play (which she is quite happy to hear!). I'll still ask the choir to sing what they would like from the pews.

    This type of approach allows something for people from both camps (albeit more heavily weighted in one direction) so that there is a period of time where congregational singing is strongly encouraged. During the remainder of the year (the choir season), we don't discourage congregational singing, but we do cover the entire Kyriale over a three year span as well as polyphonic Masses so there is less that the congregation would likely feel comfortable with. On the other hand, there are those who sing even the motets from the pews.
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    >> During our summers where the choir is off (July and August and first part of September), there still is a sung Mass.

    Incard,
    apologies in advance if this is The Dumb Question for the Day.
    Maybe yr schola does not take a summer break, only the choir singers? you described singing of Kyriales & Credos, but propers - ?

    I ask because, when I was growing up (pre V II, so "EF" of course), our parish choir sang Ordinary & Creed, but all propers were silent - not even a psalm tone. And I've never heard of that being done anywhere else.
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  • CCoozeCCooze
    Posts: 1,259
    Honestly, one of the only things I remember from the FSSP parish I went to growing up (in the '90s), was that of the Missa de Angelus and Credo III. I don't know that I had ever heard the propers of the Mass, though I knew the sung dialog and "sed libera nos a malo."

    When I first started canting for a semi-local Latin Mass, after years of attending Low Mass, I used the Rossini Propers as a starting point, and Mass VIII, moving on to other Ordinaries and Credos, before finally figuring out the intricacies of Gregorian chant, and so singing the full Propers and more-"seasonal" / festal Ordinary.

    Speaking of which: even though the vast majority of TLM that I attended as a child and young adult were Low Masses, I never felt that I wasn't participating. I didn't not know what was going on, the parts of the Mass that belong to the people/servers, etc.
    I loved finally having my own personal hand-missal, and finding in it the Proper parts for each Mass and the parts thereof.

    This whole "participation" nonsense has always seemed to me just that: nonsense. It isn't the choir's, the music's, or to some extent even the priest's job to make sure that everyone is "participating." It is up to each individual to make sure that they keep the correct mindset and engulf themselves in the beautiful prayers, smells and bells of the liturgy.
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  • Incardination
    Posts: 832
    Mme,

    Everyone except myself and the organist take a break. I sing the Propers - full Introit and Communion verse, psalm tone for Gradual / Alleluia / Offertory. I don't use the Rossini but mark the full tone with a corresponding psalm tone in the same mode. (During the year, we refer to those as "Short" Propers. If the Gradual / Alleluia OR Offertory are also full tone, those are referred to as "Medium" Propers, and when all Propers are done in full proper tone, we call those "Full" Propers.)

    So, during the summer, there would be processional / recessional as normal with congregation; Ordinary with congregation; Propers by myself; either organ interludes or simple chants usually by myself for Offertory / Communion. I typically use items from the office (Te Lucis / Lucis Creator / Ave Maris) or other chants that might be a good fit (Iesu Dulcis, Ave Virgo Serena / Iesu Dulcis Amor, Sub Tuum, Ave Maria, Ave Verum, Adoro Te). There usually is some degree of singing from the pews for things like Adoro Te / Ave Verum.

    There are never "dumb" questions, only unanswered ones!! :)

    Your parish experience is also new to me. I've never seen a parish that had "silent" Propers. In past choirs we minimally sang the Rossini Propers. For myself, I wouldn't think that would meet the requirement of a Missa Cantata... I would see it as a Low Mass with singing. Quite interesting!!
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  • mmeladirectress
    Posts: 1,075
    C Cooze,
    thanks, you said so much that rings true for me also.
    Until Bugnini & Co, except for the propers, the entire Mass never changed from week to week; I never could accept a claim that the people did not know what was going on.
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  • amindthatsuits
    Posts: 857
    I quite intentionally left this for several days because I really hate the rancor this forum can degenerate into. I am more than pleased to see a variety of attitudes and beliefs. And the discussion has mostly been polite.

    I must dissent from the notion that the considered opinion of all the Bishops meeting in Council and a succession of Popes is “nonsense.” More particularly, Karol Wojtyla, Joseph Ratzinger, and Jorge Bergoglio all brought a long record of direct pastoral involvement to the Chair of St Peter, and this is not to be dismisssd lightly.

    I received a fairly detailed understanding of what went on at his parish in his Central European immigrant community in Connecticut from my father, and it was not pretty. I am afraid that my reading indicates that was quite normal. When people refer to their own experience as normative without showing respect for others’ experience—particularly for the pastoral experience of the two immediately preceding Popes, and for the bad experiences of poor laborers—i am afraid that I in turn discount the memory of the person who does that.

    I basically agree on all this with everything Joseph Ratzinger ever wrote, and he is entirely in favor of the reforms.

    I should say I was at the magnificent Mass for the 10th Anniversary of Summorum Ponitificum at the Shrine. Maybe I mentioned it earlier in This thread. It was wonderful. But Peter Latona provides the music for many such Masses, in the Ordinary Form, and this one was to my mind a very moving concert. I would suggest that For the TLM to work at many parishes, it would have to be a lot less exalted musically and very participatory.

    Now, as I said somewhere in the middle of this, I would love to participate in a more participatory TLM, so please post news of any such.

    Blessings,

    Kenneth
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  • madorganist
    Posts: 906
    In my experience, the SSPX generally does more to foster active participation than the FSSP. In German and French speaking parts of Europe, you're likely to experience more participation than in the U.S. The "right to remain silent" mentality doesn't seem to be so deeply entrenched there. I'm sure the long history of congregational singing in Germany and Austria has something to do with that. (The same can be said of the novus ordo in Germany and Austria. Cantor soloist with microphone substituting for congregation, endemic in the States, is much rarer in those parts.)
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  • StimsonInRehabStimsonInRehab
    Posts: 1,916
    Now, as I said somewhere in the middle of this, I would love to participate in a more participatory TLM, so please post news of any such.


    If you're ever in Charleston, West Virginia, visit the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem at the Priory of the Annunciation. Actual participation in the TLM is the raison d'etre of this group. You'll never meet a more interesting mixture of brilliance, eccentricity, and sanctity than their Prior, Dom Daniel Oppenheimer.
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  • kevinfkevinf
    Posts: 1,183
    St. Nicolas du Chardonnet in Paris is an incredible example of participation in the EF. It forever changed my mind about the SSPX, participation in the EF and parish life profoundly shaped by the liturgy. Go and experience.....
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