When I think of singing in the TLM, it is in terms of my own experience, which was of school Masses 1949-1956, at St Benedict's Ealing (UK). This was the conventual Mass, and the school sang Kyrie, Gloria (if needed), Credo (if needed), Sanctus, Benedictus, and Agnus in the appropriate setting from the Kyriale. Memory fades, I do not recall what the monks sang, though I can picture monastic cantors the sound memory does not come*. I think we sang alternatim with them, certainly that seems to come more naturally to me. And we also chanted the dialogues with the priest. So participation is what I came to expect, except on Sunday when I rarely attended a sung Mass.
*The beauty of our headmaster's voice I do recall, but the context is the Laudes Regia (Christus vincit) not Mass.
As the reforms came in, I faithfully followed them. Thus I have subsequently attended far more Orthodox/Byzantine/Greek-Catholic liturgies than EF. But the EF experience was of being told to remain silent, at Corpus Christi, Maiden Lane (London UK) about 30 years ago, after trying it twice I gave up (although the music was pleasant).

Active participation is covered at some length in the Instruction on Sacred Music and Sacred Liturgy De musica sacra et sacra liturgia from 1958, several years before Vatican II, and was even addressed in the 1903 Motu proprio:

Special efforts are to be made to restore the use of the Gregorian Chant by the people, so that the faithful may again take a more active part in the ecclesiastical offices, as was the case in ancient times.

I haven't been ANYWHERE in the U.S. where active participation of the faithful in the EF liturgy is anything approaching what is typical in most of Europe, where vernacular hymns and often the Ordinary of the Mass are sung with enthusiasm. The preferred American way of hearing Mass (perhaps that expression says enough!) seems to be to flip pages in one's own lay missal and never open one's mouth in praise of God, and certain congregants are known to give ugly looks to those in the pews who dare to sing audibly. It matters not whether hymnals or printed programs are available or whether a hymn board is on display, and the priests by and large seem to be indifferent in the matter. Such progress we've made in the last 115 years! Articles like this one really don't help matters either.

Where's Julie Coll when we need her to chime in?

Seriously, though, the very participation which Jackson seeks is already a reality within the work of the SSPX, although I imagine that "participation" varies from country to country.

The problem isn't EF vs OF, although, in fairness, if "participation" means what usually happens in the OF, I want none of it.

I think that active participation, whether in the OF or EF, consists primarily in offering one’s self in union with the Sacrifice of the Priest-Victim Jesus Christ on the altar. Some are better able to do this by a greater external participation (singing in choir or in the pews is an example); others do so by a more interior participation (meditation, contemplation, awe, etc), though the two are by no means exclusive to one another. Even praying the rosary during Mass is not necessarily not focused on the Sacrifice...the sorrowful mysteries certainly draw the mind in the right direction, for example.

The actions and prayers of the priest are layed out very precisely, especially in the EF, but the actions and prayers of the congregation are much more open, for we are to offer our sacrifices together with The Sacrifice, and *how* we do that is largely a personal choice. Our priests go so far as to tell us that, during the Offertory, we should mentally put our petitions and sacrifices on the host and in the chalice that, when the Father looks down and sees His Son and the Sacrifice of his Son after the Consecration, He will see what we have offered in union with that august Sacrifice with which he is most greatly pleased.

I think it is easy to conflate active participation with external participation. Without the proper interior disposition, the greatest external participation is rather empty. Likewise, without letting the externals of the Mass engage us, do we achieve the internal participation to which we are called?

That last thought is especially germane to sacred music, which ought to be ordered towards lifting the soul to the things of heaven and to the Sacrifice.

This is all very interesting , and much that is contrary to the way certain supporters of the EF wish to see it done.

Concerning the Rosary, the magisterium of the Bl Pope Paul VI is still binding. There was a lengthy teaching document on sacramentals released by the relevant dicastery under St John Paul II, but it says the same thing:

Fro the Apostolic Exhortation Marialis Cultus: http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus.html


48. Finally, as a result of modern reflection the relationships between the liturgy and the Rosary have been more clearly understood. On the one hand it has been emphasized that the Rosary is, as it were, a branch sprung from the ancient trunk of the Christian liturgy, the Psalter of the Blessed Virgin, whereby the humble were associated in the Church's hymn of praise and universal intercession. On the other hand it has been noted that this development occurred at a time-the last period of the Middle Ages-when the liturgical spirit was in decline and the faithful were turning from the liturgy towards a devotion to Christ's humanity and to the Blessed Virgin Mary, a devotion favoring a certain external sentiment of piety. Not many years ago some people began to express the desire to see the Rosary included among the rites of the liturgy, while other people, anxious to avoid repetition of former pastoral mistakes, unjustifiably disregarded the Rosary. Today the problem can easily be solved in the light of the principles of the Constitution Sacrosanctum concilium. Liturgical celebrations and the pious practice of the Rosary must be neither set in opposition to one another nor considered as being identical.(114) The more an expression of prayer preserves its own true nature and individual characteristics the more fruitful it becomes. Once the pre-eminent value of liturgical rites has been reaffirmed it will not be difficult to appreciate the fact that the Rosary is a practice of piety which easily harmonizes with the liturgy. In fact, like the liturgy, it is of a community nature, draws its inspiration from Sacred Scripture and is oriented towards the mystery of Christ. The commemoration in the liturgy and the contemplative remembrance proper to the Rosary, although existing on essentially different planes of reality, have as their object the same salvific events wrought by Christ. The former presents new, under the veil of signs and operative in a hidden way, the great mysteries of our Redemption. The latter, by means of devout contemplation, recalls these same mysteries to the mind of the person praying and stimulates the will to draw from them the norms of living. Once this substantial difference has been established, it is not difficult to understand that the Rosary is an exercise of piety that draws its motivating force from the liturgy and leads naturally back to it, if practiced in conformity with its original inspiration.; It does not, however, become part of the liturgy. In fact, meditation on the mysteries of the Rosary, by familiaring the hearts and minds of the faithful with the mysteries of Christ, can be an excellent preparation for the creation of those same mysteries in the liturgical action and an also become a continuing echo thereof. However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

I am perfectly capable of spending either form of the Mass thinking mostly about lunch.

Thinking about this question of participation, I think that we 'traditional' musicians are much more like Bugnini than we want to admit.

While I don't think that the people should be forbidden from participating vocally in the liturgy, (which sadly happens in some E.F. venues), the truth is that singing isn't everyone's cup of tea, as much as we think it is. To be honest, I think that the E.F., when celebrated well, is more truly pastoral than the O.F., which, to be frank, often comes across as embarrassingly artificial when it comes to participation--like when a production with 'audience participation' designed for pre-school kids is brought in to entertain 6th graders. The E.F., when the people are allowed their proper freedom, without binding them to spurious 'rubrics' invented by the celebrant or his faulty recollections of times past, allows them to participate (actively) in the Sacrifice in any way that helps them, whatever that may be. And this 'old way', seemingly anti-liturgical to our expert minds, must be as old as liturgy itself, look at the East--I'm sure that the babushkas would riot if one day the Patriarch came out from behind the iconostasis and told them that from now on they had to participate as he told them, and not pray at the shrines.

Personally, I have come to grow warry of papal/Roman liturgical pronouncements from the mid 20th century on. And, no, I don't view Pius XII's reign as 'the glory days' of Catholicism, I view them as the beginning of the end; the first real deformation of the liturgy by 'experts'.

I want to let the liturgy live and breathe, but I also want the people to be able to live and breathe, without suffocating them in whatever kind of 'active participation' I deem appropriate: I don't want to be a Bugnini.

Marialis Cultus 48. ... However, it is a mistake to recite the Rosary during the celebration of the liturgy, though unfortunately this practice still persists here and there.

I suspect that what is condemned here is the public recitation of the Rosary under clerical leadership during Mass, which did occur at one time in Ireland.
The congregational silence was silence in relation to the Mass. In Ireland and England, Rosary, Holy Hour, Benediction, Vespers, were all well attended by a participatory congregation.

Clarity on how what the Bl Paul VI meant can be applied is provided by the instruction I linked. I would say that any extra devotions are discouraged, though not banned outright.

Since the archdiocese where I live never suppressed traditional devotions, they are still held and well attended. The Bl Pope Paul VI also spoke harshly of those who wished to get rid of them completely.

Kenneth

I'm sure that the babushkas would riot if one day the Patriarch came out from behind the iconostasis and told them that from now on they had to participate as he told them, and not pray at the shrines.

Babushkas have canes. Don't ever mess with them. It is a sure way to get hurt.

I think there is a different "mind-set" from west to east. The west often looks at liturgy as external, as something you do. In the east, liturgy and doctrine are internal to each of us, written on our hearts, and unchangeable. They are not dependent on a structure. If the patriarch tries to teach differently, he will be run out of town.

My favorite subject of all time! The then-Cardinal Ratzinger insisted that the essential criteria of Sacrosanctum Concilium also apply to the EF, and one of these essential criterion is that the people should learn to say or sing in Latin those parts of the Mass that pertain to them. This is being implemented quite well in Europe, particularly by the French traditionalists who are quite strong. (They just filled Chartres Cathedral with 15,000 people!)

Interestingly enough, the responses that pertain to the faithful in the EF are basically the same in both the EF and the OF: Asperges Me, Kyrie (don't know why Abp. Bugnini reduced this from 9 to 6, but that's a topic for another day), Gloria, Credo, Sanctus, Agnus Dei, as well as all the shorter responses, concluding with the very impressive sung responses to the Ite Missa Est, as well as optional Marian Antiphon, not to mention the possibility of the congregation singing the Introit antiphon and the Communion antiphon, and, of course, the possibility in both forms for the congregation to sing several verses of a vernacular hymn before and after Mass.

So, the opportunities for participation in both forms are essentially the same, and this also includes the opportunities for silence as well, because when people are taught to sing the parts of the Mass that pertain to them, the short periods of silence interspersed throughout the Mass work synergistically to draw into the fullness of the Divine Mysteries.

I think the vibrancy of the French Latin Mass movement, as seen just on Pentecost Monday in the packed Chartres Cathedral for Cardinal Sarah's Solemn High Mass is an example to all in both forms that when the people are taught to sing the Mass, great things happen.

OF: Looking at your phone

I use two different apps before OF Mass. One which gives the Proper Chants, the other giving me the day's readings through USCC. Have yet to see a missalette OR hardbound hymnal which displays the Proper chants, or even all the Proper texts.

Dad,

I haven't been to Milwaukee, but my parish is ICRSP, and I hope to shed light on the "30 second brass....."


It is part of the charism of the Institute not merely to offer dignified worship to God (and edifying instruction thereby to the faithful) but to offer majestically dignified worship -- and so the brass (or, in my apostolate, a newly refurbished 112 yr old Kimball organ) serves to honor God in an exuberant way. Many people in America (specifically, but not exclusively) don't seem to understand this.

I, for one, am very grateful to the Institute clergy who have served at the apostolate where I attend Mass, sing and play the organ.

I agree, Catherine: my mind is often very much not where it is supposed to be.

However, we have instruction or assent to that instruction from five Popes now, and it is best that we attend to that in whatever way is in conformity with what our bishop desires. (If any of you were about to type “peace and quiet and money,” I beat you to it.)

That aside: this isfascinating. It means that the TLM movement in this country is very much dominated by one conception of the proper conduct of the Mass. and any who challenge it are frequently subject to wrath that, it turns out, is almost as disobedient as the SSPX. I mean the wrath and the assertion that there is one way to do it. The question then is, how can we make more participatory EF Masses in this country? I find the (congregationally) silent Masses bewildering. But an EF with vocal congregational participation—I could throw myself into making one of those work.
Kenneth

given that there are Religious orders who take vows of silence

That's not really true, is it? I mean, outside of movies and old jokes.

Hawkins,

To Jackson's point, though, when the Irish dumped their Catholicism in (pick a year), you would, therefore, expect them to want to be more like the (formerly?) oppressive English.

The silence must end. It doesn't glorify God.

MJO, we think alike on a number of questions, but on this one, you are presuming to know the mind of God. That's a big step even for the Anglican-Catholics, don'cha think?

Thanks JulieColl. I just watched the mass at Chartres and yes the ordinary responses were sung with volume and gusto by the PIP. I think, in fact, at least one thing V2 envisioned by "active participation" was the "dialogue mass". Which had already been authorized in certain places prior to V2 using what we would now call the traditional latin mass or EF. Which did not require "versus populum" (although it was consistent with it). Interesting that the EF "movement" in Europe is more aligned to PIP joining in singing the ordinary (and other parts).

Like I said...your mileage may vary.

We all know that California people have a VERY different idea of 'spending large' than do people in flyover country.

Or to examine it from another perspective, perhaps the REGULAR musicians and choir members should be paid better, eh?

Someone coming into Irish Catholic Boston and touting the superiority of an Anglican-inflected choral musical tradition would be confirming existing prejudices against things English and be the trigger for eyerolling "Oh, [here comes/there goes] Himself" remarks.

It's an "interlude", as it were, between the intonation "Gloria in excelsis Deo" and the singing of the rest of this hymn, during the Triduum.

The organist would need an assistant, then, to watch the Sanctuary bell ringers. But, yes I have been there. At the the Credo the congregation managed to completely drown out the organ, about the best foretaste of the heavenly banquet I have had.

It means that the TLM movement in this country is very much dominated by one conception of the proper conduct of the Mass... and any who challenge it are frequently subject to ... the wrath and the assertion that there is one way to do it. ... I find the (congregationally) silent Masses bewildering. But an EF with vocal congregational participation—I could throw myself into making one of those work.

How fortunate that you could throw yourself into making one of those work.

I think I shall better be prepared to accept "this is the ONLY way to do X liturgically because this is the desire of the popes" a bit better when ALL of the liturgical precepts are followed... such as primacy of chant, the avoidance of turning the Liturgy into a spectacle, the use of appropriate liturgical music, etc.. When we no longer see the Blessed Sacrament entering the church by drone; when we no longer see liturgical dancing for the procession or during the Mass; when we see (or hear) Catholic doctrine defended and promulgated from the pulpit rather than watered down apologies that go so far as to seem to contradict the teaching of the Church on social and moral issues.

From a different perspective, perhaps it is a bit hypocritical to complain that SOME parishes and SOME people prefer to be less active while saying that we MUST participate because it is the desire of pope X, Y, and Z... all while decrying the "wrath" in certain parishes when someone in the pews decides to sing.

In a very real sense, I don't have a dog in the fight. I'm not promoting silent prayer during Mass any more than I would suggest that the EF requires "participation" (whatever that may mean for a given individual). I AM suggesting that the Faith provides for both Marthas and Marys. That, perhaps, we ought to focus on doing the best that we can as liturgical musicians without passing judgment on what happens in "certain parishes".

I attended an OF Mass a number of years ago. As is my custom in such circumstances, I remained kneeling following the Our Father to continue my reflection on the consecration. One very officious parishioner made a point of jostling me during the exchange of peace - presumably motivated by the fact that for him there was only one way to pray the Mass, presumably motivated by what he saw as my lack of participation. My response to him was a simple, "excuse me, I am praying".

I shouldn't have to defend myself for choosing to pray during Mass ANY MORE than I should have to defend choosing to sing the Ordinary or hymns from the pews.

@dad29, would you like to describe for us the pre-Vatican II practice of intoning the Gloria on Maundy Thursday and Holy Saturday in the U.S.? Predmore describes the same practice as Rice. Bonus points if you have video links! Easterns generally don't use organ, so I don't understand the point of your question.

And is each parish/institute not permitted to establish its own customs, provided they are licit? Intonazioni have and have not been used here and there, in this country and that, in this parish and that, for centuries. There is no right way to do it. In fact, the interlude you've described sounds like the type of thing that happens in O.F. Masses in cathedrals around the world. Perhaps the choice on that particular day was not the best, good taste can't be legislated.

So the ICKSP is more Baroque in its aesthetic than the average 1940s American-Irish FSSP place; whom does it bother? My guess is that you would dislike my (O.F.) parish where there can be as many as 30 Altar Boys at big Masses, and where, despite my personal Mediaevalism, the general aesthetic is VERY Baroque. (More lace, more grace, as they say.)